M16 versus AK: an assessment from Jane’s - Page 2

Christopher II · December 1, 2001, 02:55 PM

rock_jock:

14.5", but you're right. Past about 150-200m, the 5.56mm round loses the velocity that causes it to fragment on impact. Out of an M4, its effective range drops even further, down to around 75-100m.

If you get the idea that I'm a .308 fan, you'd be right, although a skilled rifleman would likely be well-served with whatever he picks up.

Keith J:

Not that I distrust you (for all I know you could be the DCM Service Rifle National Champion,) but I'd like to see some of these coffee-can lids you've perforated at 400m. I'm more of a pistol person than a rifleman, but I've shot a few DCM matches and seen what a good competition shooter can do at 300m. Keeping every shot within a 6" circle at 300 yards, iron sights, is no trick.

YMMV, IMHO, yadda yadda yadda...

-Chris

shucks · December 1, 2001, 03:05 PM

it is LETHAL to 1/2 mile, bud, out of 20" m16 barrels. So maybe it's "only" lethal to 750 yds with the 14" M4, so what? thats FIVE TIMES your estimate. MOST battlefield hits are random, often they are richochets and frags, and they are rarely immediately lethal, regardless of caliber or load, because they are PERIPHERAL hits. A 308 that pierces the leg or arm is NOT any more effective than the 223 that does the same. VERY few INTENTIONAL, chest hits are obtained beyond 100 yds, because troops use COVER and DARKNESS, they DODGE, and they fire BACK, but to "think" that the 223 is ineffective at 200m is bogus. If you really think so, I challenge you to do much of ANYTHING after taking such a hit to the chest, besides lie there, whimper for your mother, and moan-scream.

Foxy · December 1, 2001, 04:27 PM

I don't think they were using M4 carbines in BHD - BHD occured in Oct 1993, and the M4 wasn't adopted until Aug 1994.

Christopher II · December 2, 2001, 10:54 AM

Right, Hardin. Anything you say.

- Chris

ronin308 · December 2, 2001, 07:52 PM

I'm 100% behind Chris here about the .223 performance. The .223 needs at least 2800 fps to fragment. Which is as he said, about 75-100m from a shorty barrel. So after that distance, what you essentially have is a poor penetrating, non-fragmenting, 55gr. .223 caliber solid. Not too impressive...

Dan

December 1, 2001, 02:55 PM	#26
Christopher II Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 1999 Location: Germantown, MD Posts: 2,349	rock_jock: 14.5", but you're right. Past about 150-200m, the 5.56mm round loses the velocity that causes it to fragment on impact. Out of an M4, its effective range drops even further, down to around 75-100m. If you get the idea that I'm a .308 fan, you'd be right, although a skilled rifleman would likely be well-served with whatever he picks up. Keith J: Not that I distrust you (for all I know you could be the DCM Service Rifle National Champion,) but I'd like to see some of these coffee-can lids you've perforated at 400m. I'm more of a pistol person than a rifleman, but I've shot a few DCM matches and seen what a good competition shooter can do at 300m. Keeping every shot within a 6" circle at 300 yards, iron sights, is no trick. YMMV, IMHO, yadda yadda yadda... -Chris __________________ "There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him." – Robert Heinlein "Contrary to popular belief, your vote does not matter, and you cannot make a difference." - Bob Murphy, "Picking Neither of Two Evils" My PGP Public Key

December 1, 2001, 03:05 PM	#27
shucks Junior member Join Date: June 24, 2001 Posts: 45	BALONEY 223 "isnt effective beyond 150m it is LETHAL to 1/2 mile, bud, out of 20" m16 barrels. So maybe it's "only" lethal to 750 yds with the 14" M4, so what? thats FIVE TIMES your estimate. MOST battlefield hits are random, often they are richochets and frags, and they are rarely immediately lethal, regardless of caliber or load, because they are PERIPHERAL hits. A 308 that pierces the leg or arm is NOT any more effective than the 223 that does the same. VERY few INTENTIONAL, chest hits are obtained beyond 100 yds, because troops use COVER and DARKNESS, they DODGE, and they fire BACK, but to "think" that the 223 is ineffective at 200m is bogus. If you really think so, I challenge you to do much of ANYTHING after taking such a hit to the chest, besides lie there, whimper for your mother, and moan-scream.

December 2, 2001, 10:54 AM	#29
Christopher II Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 1999 Location: Germantown, MD Posts: 2,349	Right, Hardin. Anything you say. - Chris __________________ "There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him." – Robert Heinlein "Contrary to popular belief, your vote does not matter, and you cannot make a difference." - Bob Murphy, "Picking Neither of Two Evils" My PGP Public Key

December 2, 2001, 07:52 PM	#30
ronin308 Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2001 Posts: 1,977	I'm 100% behind Chris here about the .223 performance. The .223 needs at least 2800 fps to fragment. Which is as he said, about 75-100m from a shorty barrel. So after that distance, what you essentially have is a poor penetrating, non-fragmenting, 55gr. .223 caliber solid. Not too impressive... Dan __________________ If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara desert in five years there’d be a shortage of sand. -Milton Friedman

December 1, 2001, 04:27 PM	#28
Foxy Senior Member Join Date: September 14, 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 846	I don't think they were using M4 carbines in BHD - BHD occured in Oct 1993, and the M4 wasn't adopted until Aug 1994.