What's the difference?

1hogfan83 · September 30, 2016, 10:36 PM

I'm thinking of getting into cap and ball shooting and I really like the look of the 51' colt navy but I want a .44. I'm not a history freak in the sense that everything has to be totally accurate but with the look of the 51' and a .44 you can get both in the dragoons. I've been looking at the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd model dragoons but can't find the differences. Any help would be appreciated.

Poodleshooter · September 30, 2016, 11:18 PM

1st model: cylinder stop notches are oval/round; squareback trigger guard
2nd model: rectangular cylinder stop notches; squareback trigger guard
3rd model: rectangular cylinder stop notches; rounded trigger guard

BTW, Dragoons are huge compared to the '51s.
If you don't care about historical accuracy, get one of the modified '51 frames with a '60 rebated cylinder in .44.

Hawg · September 30, 2016, 11:39 PM

The Dragoons have round barrels, the navies have octagonal barrels and yeah the dragoon weighs four pounds.

BlackPowderBen · October 1, 2016, 09:15 AM

You can also get a 1860 army, it is .44 caliber and historically accurate, that is similar to the navy in .44.
Just a thought

rodwhaincamo · October 1, 2016, 02:20 PM

What are the intended uses of this pistol?

1hogfan83 · October 1, 2016, 02:47 PM

Um, just weekend fun really. Maybe get into bullet casting.

rodwhaincamo · October 1, 2016, 03:00 PM

Then the weight wouldn't be an issue. I'd opt for a Dragoon or Walker in that case. My Ruger Old Army typically draws attention. Either of these make it pale in comparison. I usually get lots of questions.

If you shoot a good bit casting is certainly the way to go. I bought cheaper Lee equipment and scrap lead at $1/lb which means I can get 48 0.457" balls for that dollar or 35 of my 195 grn bullets. Can't beat those prices and takes no time to break even, especially where boolits are concerned.

Since historically correct isn't an issue for you you might also look into a steel framed incorrect .44 cal 1851 Navy. It weighs a little more than a pound less than the above mentioned revolvers and might well be more comfortable and handy as a hunting sidearm were you to so choose to.

And if hunting is a consideration I'd suggest Swiss, Olde Eynsford, or Triple 7 powders as they are much more energetic and can produce no less than .45 ACP performance if not warmer .45 Colt performance (my Ruger Old Army with it's more accurate 35 grn charge with my 195 grn WFN boolits likely gets close to 500 ft/lbs).

You may also want to make your own lube and wads.

1hogfan83 · October 1, 2016, 08:44 PM

I know how to make my own wads but how do you make your own lube?

rodwhaincamo · October 1, 2016, 09:14 PM

I make what's known as Gatofeo's #1 lube. He found it in an old gun magazine from the 30's or 40's showing an historic recipe for outside lubricated bullets from the late 19th century.

It's melted in a double boiler and is by weight:

1 part mutton tallow
1 part paraffin wax (Gulf Wax)
1/2 part beeswax

I use this on wads, pistol bullets, Lee REALs for my rifle, and I'm told it works well for patched balls also.

Gatofeo claimed to have tried everything and found this to work the best. I'm happy with it.

Driftwood Johnson · October 2, 2016, 12:01 AM

Howdy

I used to make my own BP lube by melting Crisco and beeswax together in a double boiler. Ratio was 50/50, exact ratio did not really matter very much.

By the way, don't think of wads such as a patched ball in a flintlock rifle. You don't really need wads with a C&B revolver, but a lubed felt wad between the powder and ball helps wipe out the fouling from each proceeding shot, and also gives a little bit of extra insurance against a chain fire.

1hogfan83 · October 2, 2016, 12:37 AM

I don't plan on hunting with the gun, it's most likely going to be a plinker, is the purity of the lead that important?

rodwhaincamo · October 2, 2016, 01:12 AM

Pure lead is easier on the parts of a cap n ball loading system. Too hard and it will break parts.

Even more so if it's not a ball.

Centurion · October 2, 2016, 09:53 AM

In my case the only thing I don't do is manufacturing my primers.

I use my own casted ogival and ball bullets, my own powder and my own lube. I use to do it from cow grease and butter at a 10:1 ratio, and it performs well. Obviously it is black powder shooting so some sort of cleaning is needed after several shots, there is no magic...

Hawg · October 2, 2016, 09:57 AM

When you load a ball in a revolver it shaves a ring off of it so yeah it needs to be pure or very, very close to it. Pure lead has a BHN of 5. I use lead with a BHN of 6 and it works very well but that's probably about as hard as you can go without putting undue stress on the parts.

1hogfan83 · October 2, 2016, 12:03 PM

I've found places online for lead, a friend is also a tire shop manager, and the father in law knows every junk yard owner in the south central Missouri area. The hardness/smelting has me perplexed I guess.

Hawg · October 2, 2016, 12:20 PM

If you can get stick on wheel weights they're good. The clip on weights are too hard but they make good cartridge bulets. There's a lot of zinc weights out there now tho so watch out for them. If you have a bottom pour pot don't use dirty lead in it. Make clean ingots first.

1hogfan83 · October 2, 2016, 12:50 PM

Ok, so if I want really soft lead for my revolver then do I need tin? Most of my reading material has mentioned solder but their adding for harder bullets.

Hawg · October 2, 2016, 02:03 PM

Add nothing. Anything more than lead increases hardness.

rodwhaincamo · October 2, 2016, 02:35 PM

I've been advised to use the 98% lead 2% tin to help with fill for my cap n ball boolits.

I think Kaido casts and sells his cap n ball boolits that are 7-9 BHN.

1hogfan83 · October 2, 2016, 05:18 PM

In a .44 cal would someone use .451 or .454? Sorry for all of the novice questions guys but this is really sounding like an interesting and ADDICTIVE hobby.

Hawg · October 2, 2016, 05:51 PM

Quote:

I've been advised to use the 98% lead 2% tin to help with fill for my cap n ball boolits.

I think Kaido casts and sells his cap n ball boolits that are 7-9 BHN.

Use what you want. I don't have a problem with fill. My big bullets get frosted but that doesn't bother me. Never used a Kaido, never will.

Quote:

In a .44 cal would someone use .451 or .454? Sorry for all of the novice questions guys but this is really sounding like an interesting and ADDICTIVE hobby.

Definitely .454, you might get away with a .451 in some Pietta's but I have seen them move under recoil.

rodwhaincamo · October 2, 2016, 06:14 PM

I use my 0.457" balls in my Pietta Remington, but I also had the chambers reamed to 0.449" from 0.446".

I don't have issues with casting balls but with my boolits. Sometimes they also have wrinkles.

I won't be using any more Kaido's either.

BlackPowderBen · October 2, 2016, 06:21 PM

what do y'all have against Kaido's conicals?
Just curious.

rodwhaincamo · October 2, 2016, 06:45 PM

Nothing. They are the Lee 255 grn Colt bullet modified.

However his cost of cast bullets was my issue. I tried to buy his mold but Lee was busy with their own production and wouldn't retool until he had enough orders to warrant it, which left me waiting for quite some time so I spent more but created my own.

His boolits have been working quite well on hogs for sure.

Hawg · October 2, 2016, 07:44 PM

Wrinkled bullets mean the lead(or mold)is too cold. When it's hot enough it takes a second or two for the sprue to solidify it's just about right. Kaido's just cost too much for me.

October 1, 2016, 09:15 AM	#4
BlackPowderBen Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2015 Posts: 380	You can also get a 1860 army, it is .44 caliber and historically accurate, that is similar to the navy in .44. Just a thought __________________ "If you have to shoot, shoot! Dont talk"

October 1, 2016, 02:47 PM	#6
1hogfan83 Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2011 Location: Fayetteville AR Posts: 420	Um, just weekend fun really. Maybe get into bullet casting. __________________ You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe—and shudder. James 2:19 "I do not fear the man that practices ten thousand kicks one time, I fear the man that practices one kick ten thousand times." Bruce Lee

October 1, 2016, 08:44 PM	#8
1hogfan83 Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2011 Location: Fayetteville AR Posts: 420	I know how to make my own wads but how do you make your own lube? __________________ You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe—and shudder. James 2:19 "I do not fear the man that practices ten thousand kicks one time, I fear the man that practices one kick ten thousand times." Bruce Lee

October 2, 2016, 12:37 AM	#11
1hogfan83 Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2011 Location: Fayetteville AR Posts: 420	I don't plan on hunting with the gun, it's most likely going to be a plinker, is the purity of the lead that important? __________________ You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe—and shudder. James 2:19 "I do not fear the man that practices ten thousand kicks one time, I fear the man that practices one kick ten thousand times." Bruce Lee

October 2, 2016, 12:03 PM	#15
1hogfan83 Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2011 Location: Fayetteville AR Posts: 420	I've found places online for lead, a friend is also a tire shop manager, and the father in law knows every junk yard owner in the south central Missouri area. The hardness/smelting has me perplexed I guess. __________________ You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe—and shudder. James 2:19 "I do not fear the man that practices ten thousand kicks one time, I fear the man that practices one kick ten thousand times." Bruce Lee

September 30, 2016, 10:36 PM	#1
1hogfan83 Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2011 Location: Fayetteville AR Posts: 420	What's the difference? I'm thinking of getting into cap and ball shooting and I really like the look of the 51' colt navy but I want a .44. I'm not a history freak in the sense that everything has to be totally accurate but with the look of the 51' and a .44 you can get both in the dragoons. I've been looking at the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd model dragoons but can't find the differences. Any help would be appreciated. __________________ You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe—and shudder. James 2:19 "I do not fear the man that practices ten thousand kicks one time, I fear the man that practices one kick ten thousand times." Bruce Lee

September 30, 2016, 11:18 PM	#2
Poodleshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2000 Location: Floating down the James River in VA Posts: 2,599	1st model: cylinder stop notches are oval/round; squareback trigger guard 2nd model: rectangular cylinder stop notches; squareback trigger guard 3rd model: rectangular cylinder stop notches; rounded trigger guard BTW, Dragoons are huge compared to the '51s. If you don't care about historical accuracy, get one of the modified '51 frames with a '60 rebated cylinder in .44.

September 30, 2016, 11:39 PM	#3
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	The Dragoons have round barrels, the navies have octagonal barrels and yeah the dragoon weighs four pounds.

October 1, 2016, 02:20 PM	#5
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	What are the intended uses of this pistol?

October 1, 2016, 03:00 PM	#7
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	Then the weight wouldn't be an issue. I'd opt for a Dragoon or Walker in that case. My Ruger Old Army typically draws attention. Either of these make it pale in comparison. I usually get lots of questions. If you shoot a good bit casting is certainly the way to go. I bought cheaper Lee equipment and scrap lead at $1/lb which means I can get 48 0.457" balls for that dollar or 35 of my 195 grn bullets. Can't beat those prices and takes no time to break even, especially where boolits are concerned. Since historically correct isn't an issue for you you might also look into a steel framed incorrect .44 cal 1851 Navy. It weighs a little more than a pound less than the above mentioned revolvers and might well be more comfortable and handy as a hunting sidearm were you to so choose to. And if hunting is a consideration I'd suggest Swiss, Olde Eynsford, or Triple 7 powders as they are much more energetic and can produce no less than .45 ACP performance if not warmer .45 Colt performance (my Ruger Old Army with it's more accurate 35 grn charge with my 195 grn WFN boolits likely gets close to 500 ft/lbs). You may also want to make your own lube and wads.

October 1, 2016, 09:14 PM	#9
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	I make what's known as Gatofeo's #1 lube. He found it in an old gun magazine from the 30's or 40's showing an historic recipe for outside lubricated bullets from the late 19th century. It's melted in a double boiler and is by weight: 1 part mutton tallow 1 part paraffin wax (Gulf Wax) 1/2 part beeswax I use this on wads, pistol bullets, Lee REALs for my rifle, and I'm told it works well for patched balls also. Gatofeo claimed to have tried everything and found this to work the best. I'm happy with it.

October 2, 2016, 12:01 AM	#10
Driftwood Johnson Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2014 Location: Land of the Pilgrims Posts: 2,033	Howdy I used to make my own BP lube by melting Crisco and beeswax together in a double boiler. Ratio was 50/50, exact ratio did not really matter very much. By the way, don't think of wads such as a patched ball in a flintlock rifle. You don't really need wads with a C&B revolver, but a lubed felt wad between the powder and ball helps wipe out the fouling from each proceeding shot, and also gives a little bit of extra insurance against a chain fire.

October 2, 2016, 01:12 AM	#12
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	Pure lead is easier on the parts of a cap n ball loading system. Too hard and it will break parts. Even more so if it's not a ball.

October 2, 2016, 09:53 AM	#13
Centurion Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2016 Posts: 270	In my case the only thing I don't do is manufacturing my primers. I use my own casted ogival and ball bullets, my own powder and my own lube. I use to do it from cow grease and butter at a 10:1 ratio, and it performs well. Obviously it is black powder shooting so some sort of cleaning is needed after several shots, there is no magic...

October 2, 2016, 09:57 AM	#14
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	When you load a ball in a revolver it shaves a ring off of it so yeah it needs to be pure or very, very close to it. Pure lead has a BHN of 5. I use lead with a BHN of 6 and it works very well but that's probably about as hard as you can go without putting undue stress on the parts.

October 2, 2016, 12:20 PM	#16
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	If you can get stick on wheel weights they're good. The clip on weights are too hard but they make good cartridge bulets. There's a lot of zinc weights out there now tho so watch out for them. If you have a bottom pour pot don't use dirty lead in it. Make clean ingots first.

October 2, 2016, 12:50 PM	#17
1hogfan83 Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2011 Location: Fayetteville AR Posts: 420	Ok, so if I want really soft lead for my revolver then do I need tin? Most of my reading material has mentioned solder but their adding for harder bullets. __________________ You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe—and shudder. James 2:19 "I do not fear the man that practices ten thousand kicks one time, I fear the man that practices one kick ten thousand times." Bruce Lee

October 2, 2016, 02:03 PM	#18
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	Add nothing. Anything more than lead increases hardness.

October 2, 2016, 02:35 PM	#19
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	I've been advised to use the 98% lead 2% tin to help with fill for my cap n ball boolits. I think Kaido casts and sells his cap n ball boolits that are 7-9 BHN.

October 2, 2016, 05:18 PM	#20
1hogfan83 Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2011 Location: Fayetteville AR Posts: 420	In a .44 cal would someone use .451 or .454? Sorry for all of the novice questions guys but this is really sounding like an interesting and ADDICTIVE hobby. __________________ You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe—and shudder. James 2:19 "I do not fear the man that practices ten thousand kicks one time, I fear the man that practices one kick ten thousand times." Bruce Lee

October 2, 2016, 06:14 PM	#22
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	I use my 0.457" balls in my Pietta Remington, but I also had the chambers reamed to 0.449" from 0.446". I don't have issues with casting balls but with my boolits. Sometimes they also have wrinkles. I won't be using any more Kaido's either.

October 2, 2016, 06:21 PM	#23
BlackPowderBen Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2015 Posts: 380	what do y'all have against Kaido's conicals? Just curious. __________________ "If you have to shoot, shoot! Dont talk"

October 2, 2016, 06:45 PM	#24
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	Nothing. They are the Lee 255 grn Colt bullet modified. However his cost of cast bullets was my issue. I tried to buy his mold but Lee was busy with their own production and wouldn't retool until he had enough orders to warrant it, which left me waiting for quite some time so I spent more but created my own. His boolits have been working quite well on hogs for sure.

October 2, 2016, 07:44 PM	#25
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	Wrinkled bullets mean the lead(or mold)is too cold. When it's hot enough it takes a second or two for the sprue to solidify it's just about right. Kaido's just cost too much for me.