|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
April 4, 2017, 10:41 AM | #1 |
Staff
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21,838
|
Did the Indians Clean Their Guns? (salvaged thread)
Accidentally deleted the Did the Indians clean their guns thread. My apologies to the members as it is a very good thread. I've got it on the screen right now and am trying to find a way to salvage it. Stand by.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe! |
April 4, 2017, 10:44 AM | #2 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Staff
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21,838
|
Did the Indians Clean Their Guns?
Here is the material from Recoil Spring's thread asking, "Did the Indians clean their guns?"
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe! Last edited by 4V50 Gary; April 4, 2017 at 11:02 AM. Reason: salvaging material |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||
April 4, 2017, 12:31 PM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,189
|
Good salvage job,
|
April 4, 2017, 01:59 PM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 17, 2015
Location: South Central MO / Africa
Posts: 1,111
|
I don't know how much of a scholarly work this is but, this article here states the Indians wouldn't buy a gun that didn't have the snake / dragon:
http://thefurtrapper.com/home/indian-trade-guns/ "By the early eighteen hundreds, the trading companies had established rigid requirements for the Northwest guns. The full-stocked, smoothbore trade guns varied little in shape and style, but under went changes in barrel lengths. By the late 1820’s, the 30-inch barrel had become popular. The overall length of a standard Northwest gun with a 30-inch barrel was 45.5 inches. A distinctive feature of these guns was the dragon or serpent shaped side plate. Most Indians would not trade for a gun that did not have the serpent plate. Hansen states that the earliest record of the Hudson’s Bay gun with its distinctive dragon ornament is dated 1805." I figure the French trained the Indians to clean their rifles.
__________________
NRA Life Member |
April 4, 2017, 04:43 PM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,876
|
Just saying
I'm pretty sure native Americans knew how. I do believe many Natives were not only taught but shown how by those early Rocky Mountain Trappers who traded with and married into such Native Tribes. One battle West of the Mississippi that confirms my suspicion. Battle of the Little Bighorn. |
April 4, 2017, 06:36 PM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 2, 2017
Posts: 1,868
|
I'm pretty sure they used Hoppe's #9! :-)
|
April 4, 2017, 08:39 PM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 29, 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 6,126
|
American Indians were involved in warfare both against and beside colonial European settlers and militias.
By the time of King Phillips war the Eastern tribes were probably familiar with the care and feeding of firearms. As tribes were pushed West, that knowledge probably came along with them. The Buffalo Bill Museum in Cody Wyoming has a large collection of firearms owned by Native Americans. iirc they all looked fairly serviceable. |
April 5, 2017, 08:14 AM | #8 |
Junior member
Join Date: October 20, 2012
Posts: 5,854
|
Chief Joseph's rifle is really short. Is that a canoesman's rifle?
|
April 5, 2017, 09:33 AM | #9 |
Staff
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21,838
|
That crescent shaped buttplate makes me wonder if Chief Joseph shouldered his gun or did he place it against his arm?
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe! |
April 5, 2017, 10:56 AM | #10 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,189
|
Quote:
|
|
April 7, 2017, 07:38 PM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 19, 2009
Posts: 3,287
|
I have a percussion rifle that came off of a Reservation here in Michigan - a full stock about the size of a Leman but not a Leman - barrel was recycled at least three times from the barrel lugs on the underside and bore is clean.
Some folks seem to think that the Native Americans were somehow mentally incapable of knowing how to clean a firearm - which kind of surprises me. Why would they be any different than any other section of society of the time, regardless of race, which consisted of those who took care of their possessions and those that didn't? Part of this way of thinking is influenced by what we saw on Hollywood creations depicting "Indians" as "savages" who all wore breechclouts and used bows and arrows and carried a knife for scalping. I'm sure that when firearms were first introduced, there was a learning curve in regards to them the same way as when they became available to the Anglo societies. Study your history . . . yes, there were tribes that were nomadic, tribes that hunted, tribes that migrated each year to the banks of water for the fishing and tribes that were agrarian. And, due to the pressure of the Anglo westward movement from very early Colonial times onward, as a result many of the "native Americans" adapted to the ways of the white man - and not all ran around in buckskins and feathers but blended in to white society as far as dress and adapting due to necessity - they weren't lacking in intelligence. Much of what is passed on as "fact" is an interpretation through the eyes of the anglo society and just like today, the observance of one or a number of individuals attributed to a specific segment of society does not reflect what is practiced by all of that society. I have a neighbor who mows barefooted - so Iif he mows barefooted, I assume all of those he associates with as a social group or ethnic group must mow barefooted? One person tells his observance, it gets passed on and embellished and by the time it is retold a half dozen times it does not even remotely resemble what is true but it is accepted as "true". I am not Native American nor am I trying to be "politically correct" (something which I detest with a passion) . . . I am just saying that while the question is valid, it also seems like it assumes that a Native American could not be capable of mastering something as simple as swabbing a bore or greasing his weapon to keep it form rusting. To put it another way - let's think about the Battle of the Little Big Horn (and I had a g-g-uncle who served under Custer and was killed in Virginia in 1864 - Co. B, 7th Michigan Volunteer Cavalry) and another ancestor who was killed at the Little Big Horn. The Army, in all their wisdom, equipped their soldiers with single shot Springfields . . . . hmmm . . . a number of the attacking "Indians" had Winchesters . . . . of the two different ethnic and social groups, which one appears to be smarter and better armed? An interesting thread and just my 2 cents worth which probably isn't worth a plug nickel.
__________________
If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63 |
April 7, 2017, 08:16 PM | #12 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX
Posts: 2,603
|
Quote:
A few of them had repeating arms but the vast majority had muzzle loaders, surplus Civil War muskets, smooth bore trade guns, and bows and arrows.
__________________
Hanlon's Razor "Do not invoke conspiracy as explanation when ignorance and incompetence will suffice, as conspiracy implies intelligence and organization." |
|
April 7, 2017, 08:31 PM | #13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 20, 2011
Posts: 566
|
Archeologists did find a lot of .44 Henry rim fire cases on the Indian lines at the battlefield after the fire at Little Big Horn in the 1980s.
|
April 9, 2017, 03:19 AM | #14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 17, 2007
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 366
|
Custer's men had only recently been rearmed with the Trapdoor Springfield's, turning in their Civil War Spencer repeating carbines for them. I have often wondered how many of the were cursing this as they fought the battle being vastly outnumbered and being outgunned in firepower in some instances. Lets see going from a repeating rifle to a single shot, having limited or no experience in firing of said rifle and with ammunition that was not the best. What is there to go wrong?
__________________
357 Taurus Gaucho, 22 Heritage RR, 2-Pietta 1858 44 NMA Remingtons, Pietta, Euroarms & ASM 36 1851 Navies, 31 Uberti 1849, 12 ga H&R Topper, 16 Ga Western Field, 43 Spanish Remington Rolling Block, 44 ASM Colt Walker, High Point C9 9mm, Winchester 1906 22, Rossi 62 22 rifle, Uberti 1860, H&A & IJ 32 S&W BreakTop, 36 Euroarms 1858, 32 H&R 04, 22mag NAA SS BP revolver, .44 Rodgers & Spencer, IJ 38 S&W BreakTop, IJ 22 Sealed 8 |
April 9, 2017, 07:29 AM | #15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX
Posts: 2,603
|
Underestimating the enemy has been the downfall of many a military leader. (also known as believing your own propaganda)
__________________
Hanlon's Razor "Do not invoke conspiracy as explanation when ignorance and incompetence will suffice, as conspiracy implies intelligence and organization." |
April 9, 2017, 09:57 AM | #16 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 23, 2009
Posts: 1,624
|
I'd say anyone smart enough to make from scratch a bow that is powerful enough, and an arrow that flies straight enough, to kill a buffalo is probably smart enough to use water to wash away powder residue. More than a few probably observed first hand the white guys cleaning theirs.
|
April 10, 2017, 01:51 PM | #17 |
Junior member
Join Date: October 20, 2012
Posts: 5,854
|
I want Chief Joseph's gun. Looks like a good brush gun.
|
|
|