Should I be unhappy with these groups?

[dakota.potts]

I'm looking for a reality check.

Earlier this year I bought my first factory precision rifle. All of the precision (centerfire) shooting I've done has been with custom rifles, usually on high-end actions (Kelbly, Stiller, Badger, etc.) on high-end barrels that we fitted and chambered. When I parted ways with that shop and wanted to keep in the sport, I knew that I couldn't afford that level of rifle. I bought my Savage 110 Stealth in 6.5 Creedmoor, expecting it to perform reasonably in these events but knowing it wouldn't be a consistent one-hole shooter.

When I took it out to shoot it the first time, the groups would slowly and consistently walk. I got frustrated with it and very busy with work so I put it away until recently. The other day I bought a torque wrench, went over everything, and found out that the gunsmith I paid to put the scope on hadn't torqued the scope ring screws appropriately. At 20 in lbs they had almost a full rotation to go. I also scrubbed the bore with a copper and powder solvent.

Today I took it back out and shot it some more. The groups were much more consistent and I no longer had the walking zero issue. But, I still wasn't satisfied with what happened. The rifle is holding right around 1" at 100 yards, often a little on the high side (between 1" and 1.25") with some groups coming in a little tighter. I have one 3 shot group that measures .620". But in general the 5 shot groups are not going the way I want them to. Often 2 or 3 shots are very close and then are bigger from there. For instance, I have one group where 3 shots measure .320", 4 shots measures .7", and all 5 shots measure over 1.25".

It doesn't seem to be a case of rounds starting close together and opening up. I had a couple groups where the extreme spread was on the 1st and second shots with the others filling in the middle.

Some information to help:
I was shooting Hornady American Gunner and Federal Gold Medal Match ammo
The gun was shot rested off of front and rear bags
I first shot 5 rounds of Winchester Deer Season to confirm zero and start the re-fouling process
I did not let the gun cool down between shots except during cold range (every 10 minutes). The gun is meant to be a PRS rifle and the rifles are run hot at those events.
The chassis is free of interference points and the action screws are torqued to 65 in-lbs.

Am I expecting too much out of this rifle to do better from the factory? It almost feels to me like something in the rifle is still trying to settle in. I've put 40 rounds through it since cleaning, maybe it needs a couple more to foul and settle to consistency?

I don't know what else to think at this point. Maybe try bedding the chassis? I don't usually consider chassis rifles to be in need of bedding but I've done it a time or two where it was suspected the contact surfaces weren't completely even.

[std7mag]

Dakota,
You don't mention what scope, or rings your using. Vortex says max torque on their scope/rings at 18 inchlbs. Warne rings say 25 inchlbs.

As for your action screws, they are too tight. There is an article on accurate shooter that describes tuning the Savage action. Believe me it works!!

Also, you of anyone should know there is no such thing as factory precision. While good, the Savage Stealt isn't their model 12 Palma.
Savages in general i've found to have longer throats. Your match bullets would do well to be seated out close to the lands.
Aka start handloading.

[Chainsaw.]

Std7mag has a strong point about the action screw torque, it makes a shocking difference. Also, ammo. If the factory ammos velocities aren't very close you'll see larger groups. I hand load mostly but my Savage 10t does very much like the hornady match 140 grain eld ammo.
But yeah, hand load and chronograph.

[Art Eatman]

In some fifty years of messing with various rifles/cartridges, I never found a factory load which would compete with my handloads.

I have faith in Sierra bullets, since most all of my kills have been bang-flops, and the vast majority of my groups (five different cartridges, through the years) have been sub-MOA--and many around 0.5 MOA.

[Brian Pfleuger]

I have personally demonstrated that at least some types of powder fouling do not group in the same place as other powders. My personal experience was with Benchmark and W748. When I switched from one to the other, over course of 3-4 shots the groups would "walk" to the left or right and then settle until I switched again. Others have said they've never seen this, and it undoubtedly doesn't happen with all powders (or perhaps, guns/bullets/barrels?) but it undeniably happened with mine.

Also wholeheartedly agree on the action torque and the method mentioned by std7mag as well as Art's point about factory versus handloads. I would expect Federal GMM to be pretty damn good, the rest not so much.

[T. O'Heir]

What accuracy were you expecting using factory ammo? If you're not reloading you must try a box of as many brands and bullet weights as you can to find the ammo that rifle shoots best.
"...almost a full rotation to go..." That has nothing to do with it. Torqueing screws is a lot like the off-the-lands nonsense. It's different for every rifle. 100% trial and error.

[dakota.potts]

I'm using Warne scope rings which is why I chose 25 in lbs. I've always used 65 in lbs on chassis rifles because that's how I was taught, so I will definitely try the savage specific method mentioned.

Hand loading won't happen for me right now. Living space in South Florida is very expensive and where I'm at now really just isn't amenable to the practice. I used to shoot factory ammunition out of a number of custom rifles. We could always expect to get sub MOA out of FGMM and Prime ammunition and even the cheaper American Eagle 140gr OTM.

What I was expecting out of a factory rifle with match grade ammo wasn't necessarily one hole groups, but consistent sub MOA groups and ideally closer to a half inch than an inch. Definitely not 5 shot groups opening up to an inch and a half.

[Brian Pfleuger]

You can get a lot out of some factory rifles. My Ruger M77 MkII in .204 will shoot under 1/2" easily. I've shot many a 3 shot group under 1/3" and overlayed them into groups as large as 12 shots under 1/2". That's a $400 gun with a $75 trigger and a $225 scope. I don't often shoot long distance, but it's also shot 3" groups at 400.

Scope ring torque is an interesting thing with conflicting data I've never really studied. For instance, Warne's recommended torque settings are claimed by Minox to damage tubes.

Page 10
http://www.minox.com/fileadmin/downl...e_0913_web.pdf

Caution: Over-tightening the ring assembly can
damage your MINOX riflescope and will void the
scope warranty. Tighten only to 13 to 15 inch
pounds of torque as measured with a torque tool,
or no more than finger tight when holding the short
end of the hex key/Allen wrench provided with many
mounting kits.

Warne

Push each ring towards the muzzle to seat the recoil key and tighten only the bottom screws to 25in/lb* max. Adjust eye relief and level the reticle. Once both are correct, tighten the top screws on both rings to 25 in/lb* max.

[Nathan]

I have 3 Savages that I have experience with....
1) Savage 10 package gun in 308....if I remember, it was a 1.25-1.5” rifle with tactical/match ammo. That gun was just not setup for match groups.
2) Savage 10 FCP 308 S.S. 16x - shoots in .3’s with factory match/tactical ammo.
3) Savage 12 BVSS 300 WSM Burris XTR 3-12 - Shoots 0.6’s with my best reloads so far.

That gun seems to come in 300 Win Mag and 338 Lapua only?? Is it the 10 Stealth? Did you put a muzzle device on it?

I would expect .5”-1” groups off a perfect rest (stable sand bags).

You sound like a serious shooter, so we’ll skip the is your rest, scope, cleaning regimen up to the task....Still, you should consider if if your whole setup is up to snuff.

I wonder if you have tried enough loadings. There should be a bullet/load that rifle breaks 1” with easily.

How is your bedding in that chassis? With action screws finger tight, is the bedding solid? The purpose of bedding and chassis is to create a hard joint.

[Scorch]

Dakota-
In order to wring the most out of your precision rifle, you will have to handload. The chances of finding a factory load that brings out its best are slim.

[RC20]

I will also highly reocmned that you do one of two things if not both.

Get Carbon Killer 2000. Get Boretec Eliminator. Those will clean a barrel and Savage is pretty awful finish inside (not an accuracy issue but it is a cleaning issue

And Or: Get a Lyman Borocsocpe, otherwise you have to trust the above two will do what I say they will (and they do) or you need to be able to look at what you are using and how good a job (probably not that good)

You cannot see into the groves unless you have a B scope. Hawkeye is even nicer but big bucks.

I clean while the barrel is warm at the range (at home it works but takes more time)

Nylon Brush, one of the above cleaners, run through 3 x, get brush out the end, drizzle on the cleaner (I have an eye dropper for the Carbon Killer) 3x, repeat 3x

Dry patch, repeat until it comes clean.

Bore tech (copper) also has a good carbon component, not as as good as CK2k but good.

What I found was there tends to be no copper and lots of carbon. YRMV.

Both are low or no odor and non toxic, and they work wonders.
Helps if there are layers.

[stagpanther]

I know some people (including the makers of some of the finest custom barrels in the world) say it makes no difference--but I always break my barrels in so the first 30 to 40 shots are generally throw-aways in my book anyway. Even so--I like to look for hopeful signs of accuracy in the loads I develop.

I've never had any savage in any caliber at any price point that couldn't shoot under MOA--most were capable of shooting well under that. The creedmoor is a cartridge that favors a "tuned" cartridge to your particular barrel. If you're getting groups consistently in the MOA range +/- with the "flashes of brilliance" of 2 or three close--I view that as a good indicator of inherent accuracy and consistency--just awaits the "fine-tuning" of a cartridge with the right harmonics to really find the sweet spot. That said, Hornady factory ammo is generally VERY good--you might want to try a few others--including something like superformance powder sst/eld--which if my foggy memory serves was specifically rolled out for the creedmoor.

[FrankenMauser]

I, personally, would probably be leaning toward disappointment. But I wouldn't be throwing in the towel, either.
Try some other ammunition. Try the tweaks suggested above. ...And see what happens.

[Sevens]

I'm an amateur who merely dabbles in rifles, I read most of these threads simply to learn, but I have to interject a strong opinion backed with a lot of experience:

Handloading takes time, care, patience and money. I refuse to accept arguments that basically state it cannot be done or even done (VERY!) well in a small, confined space. I loaded FIVE calibers (including one bottle-neck rifle round) while in my one small apartment room in college without even having a real load bench or even a desk. I used a length of board across the corner of my waterbed and I made great ammo for .38, .45, 10mm, .30 Carbine and .223.

Something as small as a microwave cart could make a FANTASTIC small load bench and loading for center fire rifle means a lot of small detail work but not loading in ridiculous volume.

If you DON'T want to handload right now, I can accept that. If you try to tell me you don't have enough space... I gotta call BS.

[Rimfire5]

dakota-potts,

The 110 stealth is not a rifle that is set up for shooting as a precision bench rifle. I'm not even sure the barrel is a full bull barrel so it may be very sensitive to barrel heating.
As other posters have indicated, some rifles are sensitive to variations in bullet weight and powder combinations, and even the most expensive factory ammos won't necessarily shoot equivalently across the board.
My Savages are very sensitive to the torque on the stock screws and I suspect yours might be too tight.

I have 6 Savages, two in 6.5mm Creedmoor, and they shoot better than what you are experiencing with factory ammo but they generally shoot hand loads into groups that are at least 30% smaller that factory ammo.

One of my 6.5mm Savages is a model 12 Long Range Precision rifle with a 8-32x56 Nightforce scope with a 26 inch bull barrel, a Precision Accu-trigger that came from the factory set at 10 ounces, and a HS Precision stock with an aluminum internal frame. My best results have come with a Sinclair 3rd Gen F-Class bipod and a Protektor rear bag.

The 12 LRP is heavy and is incredibly accurate - averaging under 0.375 for 5 round groups at 100 yards, just what you want for a target rifle.
Even with those results, if the barrel heats to over 113 degrees, the point of impact drops as much as 1/4 of an inch. When you are shooting average groups under 0.4 inch, that is a very big change in POI and would really mess up your day during a match if you weren't monitoring barrel temperature. I have a LCD temperature strip on my barrel near the chamber.

But the factory ammo averages even worse, averaging 0.661 at the same distance.
I got the best results with factory ammo using Hornady 140 ELD-M Match ammo and 143 grain ELD-X hunting ammo.

I got great results with hand loads using the 130 TMK Sierras, 140 grain and 147 grain Hornady ELD-M bullets. I also have comparative results with Berger 140 bullets - all three types - match, long range and hybrid.
The 12 LRP likes IMR4350 and IMR4451 powders. Certain bullet weights prefer one powder over the other. I have tried faster powders like IMR4034, Varget, and H4895 but the results are not as good as with its two favorite powders.

My other 6.5mm Creedmoor is a Savage 10T-SR made especially for Cabela's. It has a Sightron 36X fixed power scope mounted and it also shoots off a Sinclair F-Class bipod and the Protektor rear bag. It has a 24 inch semi bull barrel with an Accu-Stock and a standard Accu-Trigger. The barrel-stock combination is lighter and the stock feels shorter with a lower cheek weld. As a result, I believe that I am creeping up on the scope just a bit as I shoot groups and I find my later rounds moving vertically just a bit. Also, the barrel heats up quicker than the 12 LRP so I have to stop and let it cool more. The group sizes are larger than with the 12 LRP by at least 25%.

I have documented that a 1.8 inch movement closer to the rear scope aperture will cause the POI to move upward by 1/4 inch. I found that to be the case with the 10T-SR and my .223 Les Baer Super Varmint.

The 10T-SR likes 130 Sierra TMKs and Hornady 140 grain ELD-M bullets with Reloader 17 more than IMR4350 and generally shoots IMR4350 better than IMR4451. That is almost the exact opposite to the preferences of the 12 LRP.

First I would try some different factory ammos with weights from 123 to 147 since the Savage 6.5mm Creedmoors have a 1:8 twist and won't stabilize a 150 grain bullet.
I doubt you can find out with any certainty what powder a factory ammo manufacturer uses and even if you did, the bulk powder buys they make might not match powder mixes you can buy.

Good luck with your tuning and adjustments and let us know how your experimentation turns out.

[m&p45acp10+1]

I was at the range today shooting my Savage 12 FV in 6.5 Creedmoor. I have fired exactly 5 rounds of factory ammo out of it. With 130 grain, and 140 grain hand loads I get 1/2 to 3/4 MOA out of 5 shot groups. When it gets so hot I can not hold onto the barrel I let it cool off while I go shoot some steels with my pistols.

A guy showed up with his 110 Stealth. With factory ammo it was giving 1 to 1 1/2 MOA groups. I tried it with my 140 grain loads. (CCI BR2 Large Rifle Primer. Hornady brass. Hornady ELD Match 140 grain. With 31.5 grains of IMR 8208 XBR.) He had a chronograph and the load did well. I lost the paper I wrote the numbers on. His rifle, and mine both gave very close numbers. While velocity was not that high compared to the factory loads. The ES was less than 15 and SD was a single digit around 8 or so. The groups from his were 3/4 MOA with the thread cap in place. He installed a muzzle brake, and his group went to just under 1/2 MOA for 5 shots. I was impressed to say the least.

I would advise reloading to the rifle. Also get something to replace the cap. They shoot better with the brake, or a suppressor from the ones I have seen.

My most accurate load is a 130 grain ELD Match loaded over Reloader 15 with a CCI BR2 primer. I use either Hornady, or Starline brass.

You will greatly improve accuracy if you can tune the load to the rifle.

[dakota.potts]

Thanks for the advice everybody. Sorry I'm a bit late on the reply.

Handloading is not going to happen for me right now. While I'm sure I could make it happen, I'm stretched between so many other things right now that I'm not willing to do the sacrifices necessary. I know I can't expect the best possible groups but that's not what the rifle is for. I bought it for action shooting (PRS) so it won't spend its life on a bench. What I want to do is find out that I can have a consistent 1 MOA bench mark with readily available ammo. With the groups I'm getting now I would be uncomfortable going to even a local match but I'd feel a lot better if I could just consistently hit between .75 to 1 MOA.

I do have a muzzle brake on the gun, just a $25 cheapy from Brownell's (I think Stoner Engineering). The barrel is not a full bull barrel and I do wonder if the muzzle brake could be affecting accuracy.

It might be a couple of weeks before I can get some ammo and go to the range again, but I'll try some of the fixes above. I definitely think I'll back off the scope ring screw torque to around 15 in-lbs. and re-set the action screw torque, and pick up a couple more brands of ammo to try the next time.

[m&p45acp10+1]

If you can get 130 grain ELD Match ammo I would give that a try. I forgot to mention that I ran some of those through his rifle as well. The groups were easily 1/2 MOA for a 3 5 shot groups. The chronograph numbers were pretty impressive as well. SD and ES were under 25 for both. I have seen groups improve on most 6.5 rifles with use of 130 grain bullets.

[stagpanther]

If you can get 130 grain ELD Match ammo I would give that a try. I forgot to mention that I ran some of those through his rifle as well. The groups were easily 1/2 MOA for a 3 5 shot groups. The chronograph numbers were pretty impressive as well. SD and ES were under 25 for both. I have seen groups improve on most 6.5 rifles with use of 130 grain bullets.

+1

[HiBC]

OK,so you are already tired of hearing "handload". I have loaded for rifles that just did not like a particular match bullet. I've seen powder selection cut groups from about 1 1/4 to about 5/8 MOA (H-1000,7mm Rem Mag)

And sometimes (contrary to popular lore) at max loads I've seen groups shrink.

No doubt you know how to use Prussian blue and a scraper. You might try bluing up the receiver and barrel shank,recoil lug and torqueing to maybe 5 in lbs.If you don't get full transfer,scrape the high spots. I find feeler gauge stock,about .025 ,makes a nice scraper .Grinding it roughly square,or whatever you need,will leave a nice sharp burr to drag.It will cut nicely.

When torqueing your guard screws,the torque should ramp up very quickly.If you feel anything springy,like 1/2 turn of take up,something is being bent.

If you get to feeling like its hopeless,I'll tell you how I have transformed a mediocre barrel. I figured I had nothing to lose. It went sub MOA

I used this diamond mold polishing compound:

https://www.gesswein.com/p-920-gessw...l-soluble.aspx

Its the green,approx 1800 mesh.

In my case,it was a 30-06,I used 30-30 cast bullets.For that 6.5.I might use the Barnes with the grooves.Solid copper,longer the better.(But I'd trynot to seat into the boiler room)

Charge the bullets with the diamond. Maybe 20. Roll then between glass or ground parrallels to embed the compound.

Load mild starting pressure loads . My polishing experience said I did not want the bore dry.A pass with a loose patch that's wet but not dribbling between shots.Kerosene,Hoppes,I don't think it matters much.You don't want dry,but don't get the bore sloppy.

Shoot a dozen or 20. Then clean it.

That's a 1800 grit quality diamond mold polishing compound.It wont cut a lot,but it might knock off the high spots. You might be pleasantly surprised.

I don't think you'll hurt anything. You might be surprised what you can do with a Lee Hand Press.

I'd try without the brake. It can be a problem. Especially if not perfectly co-axial. Or try one of the piloted brake reamers.

FWIW,I bore AR flash hiders out to about .430.

[Hilltop Shooter]

I have a Savage 10 Stealth but in .308 Win. All I did was mount a small Nikon Monarch with Warne rings and install a cheap procomp brake and went to the range.

I tried some cheaper stuff to sight in close and break the barrel in. 150gr Fed Fusion mostly. It hovered around MOA or a little bigger.

Then I shot some ELD-X and Fed GMM and both shot ok. The ELD-X wasn't much better than American Hunter or Fusion. The Gold Metal Match was holding 5 shot groups around 3/4"-1". Then I tried some Nolser Custom Competition and they have by far been the load of choice for my Stealth. I have 3 and 5 shot groups from 3/8" to 5/8". Most around 1/2". Not alot of 5 shot groups but the times I have laid down 5, my groups don't normally open up enough to speak of.

I'm sure somebody else could shoot it better and handloading would probably up the consistency but for me and my lowly skills and for what I use it for I have no accuracy complaints with the Stealth.

[Picher]

When I get a new rifle, I don't shoot it before pillar/epoxy bedding and free-floating the barrel with at least 1/16" clearance. After it sets up for a day, I'll take it out, clean up the bedding job, then take it to the range on a good shooting day.

The recoil plate needs clearance on the bottom and front with two layers of masking tape, one layer on each side.

I don't expect half-inch groups until firing about 50 rounds, without letting the barrel get hot.

The new-ish Remington 700 CDL Stainless-Fluted shoots half-inch or better three-shot groups with handloads. Some groups are scary-tight. It's a joy to shoot, handling recoil very well and looking very nice.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=589114