"improperly staked gas keys"?

MTm7 · July 11, 2009, 11:47 AM

could somebody help me out...what does improperly staked or not staked gas keys mean? i was reading a thread over on ar15.com about dpms rifles suffering from said problem. i just bought one now im thinking i made a mistake... what gives?

Scorch · July 11, 2009, 12:07 PM

The gas key is the little thingy that sticks up on top of the bolt carrier and has a hole to fit over the end of the gas tube (this is what makes the rifle cycle when high-pressure gas comes from the barrel). It is bolted onto the top of the bolt carrier with 2 socket-head or Torx screws. Thes screws can back out due to vibration, allowing the gas key to move around and causing misalignment with the gas tube and generally reduced reliability of cycling when the rifle is fired. "Staking" is using a punch or swage to raise the metal around the screws so that it jams the screws, causing a physical lock and keeping them from loosening. Many AR rifles come with gas keys poorly staked or not staked at all.

zoomie · July 11, 2009, 12:15 PM

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6993

If yours is mediocre or bad, it's easy to fix or get fixed.

lipadj46 · July 11, 2009, 12:18 PM

Seriously people make a real big deal out of nothing. If you have a small punch, a hammer and a vise you can stake it yourself in under a minute.

MTm7 · July 11, 2009, 01:05 PM

thanks scorch and zoomie.... VERY helpful!

Wildalaska · July 11, 2009, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Seriously people make a real big deal out of nothing. If you have a small punch, a hammer and a vise you can stake it yourself in under a minute.

I make a big deal out of it because its so simple....and necessary...then ask yourslef why a manufacturer would ship one improperly staked

WilditscooltodayAlaska ™

Alleykat · July 11, 2009, 08:36 PM

It's much more "fashionable" to post about "improperly staked gas keys" than to not post about "improperly staked gas keys." Chances are, if your AR's gas key is staked, it'll work just fine.

jeffatus · July 11, 2009, 09:08 PM

If you bought your rifle for an accurate plinker at the range, you will probably be very happy with it. I have heard good things about their accuracy. As for things like a properly staked key, I would only worry about it if you are planning on using your gun for self defence or in case of an emergency. If so, then check out the attached links below:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...QsEuEhjFwPrgTA
(Read the Explanation of Features, then the Specs Graph)

http://www.tacticalyellowvisor.net/8343/16001.html

http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81462

These are resources I refer to from time to time when building my AR. If I wanted a gun for plinking, I would not really care beyond getting whatever options I wanted on the AR when I bought it.

Hope that helps.

smoakingun · July 11, 2009, 09:41 PM

so, once you stake it, how do you get it apart should you have to?

lipadj46 · July 11, 2009, 09:57 PM

Quote:

I make a big deal out of it because its so simple....and necessary...then ask yourself why a manufacturer would ship one improperly staked

Well yeah some people like to make a big out of it because like to sell Colt AR's as I assume there is a higher margin there

Yes all manufacturers should do it but if you can save $400 or $500 and get a bushmaster or CMMG and then just bang out a couple stakes I don't see what the big deal is.

Quote:

so, once you stake it, how do you get it apart should you have to?

Either make sure you have a nice quality allen wrench driver and drive it off, or knock the stakes back a bit with a punch, or use a file to break through the stakes, a dremel...

smoakingun · July 11, 2009, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:
so, once you stake it, how do you get it apart should you have to?

Either make sure you have a nice quality allen wrench driver and drive it off, or knock the stakes back a bit with a punch, or use a file to break through the stakes, a dremel...

the reason I ask is that the work required to remove those screws is the reason I don't stake them. During each cleaning, the gas key is one of my regular checks. if it is tight when I put it away, it will be tight the next time I use it.

Wildalaska · July 11, 2009, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Well yeah some people like to make a big out of it because like to sell Colt AR's as I assume there is a higher margin there.

You assume wrong

Quote:

Yes all manufacturers should do it but if you can save $400 or $500 and get a bushmaster or CMMG and then just bang out a couple stakes I don't see what the big deal is.

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahah.....if its no big deal how does the manufacturer save $400 or $500 by not doing it...

Here hows this...attention to detail...if you cant bother properly staking the gas keys.......????

Quote:

so, once you stake it, how do you get it apart should you have to?

Why would you ever have to?

WildsuchsillinessometimesAlaska TM

smoakingun · July 11, 2009, 10:21 PM

everything needs to be replaced eventually

Wildalaska · July 11, 2009, 10:23 PM

If my gas key wears out I will probably be worrying about a lot more than that.

WildhasanyoneherereplacedoneAlaska TM

smoakingun · July 11, 2009, 10:30 PM

Me too.

I've been machining, and turning wrenches for a couple of decades now, and I have learned a few things. make sure you can take it apart if you have to. If it is something you worry about comming loose, check it often.

T. O'Heir · July 11, 2009, 11:13 PM

"Staking" is the same as peening. Keeps the part in place.

Bartholomew Roberts · July 12, 2009, 06:27 AM

Quote:

the reason I ask is that the work required to remove those screws is the reason I don't stake them. During each cleaning, the gas key is one of my regular checks. if it is tight when I put it away, it will be tight the next time I use it.

Personally, if I ever reach the point that I need to replace the gas key due to wear (and I've worn out barrels; but never a gas key yet), then it would probably be a wise idea to replace the entire bolt carrier group and not just the gas key - because there are a lot of parts that are going to wear long before the gas key does.

The only time I can even think of when it might have been necessary to remove a gas key is when a popped primer got crushed into gas key and blocked the flow of gas. We used a drill to grab the primer and pull it out through the opening without disassembling the key; but I suppose it is possible it might have been necessary to disassemble it.

I'd much rather have the security of knowing my rifle isn't going to become a straight pull bolt action due to the gas key working loose than have the security of knowing I can replace the gas key, should it ever be necessary.

Quote:

If it is something you worry about comming loose, check it often.

Things I have had work loose on my AR due to the vibration of shooting rotating some threaded part:

Pistol grip
Telestock
Quad rail
Arms #40
Scope rings
ACOG handle mount

If it is mounted to an AR with threads, it needs to be staked or loctited if you want to keep it during the type of firing schedules you encounter in carbine courses. Otherwise it is just a matter of time. That is why the military requires gas keys be staked (and they remove a lot more of them than I ever will). By and large, I find the "stake and loctite" approach to be more practical for my uses than checking every threaded part on an AR during the limited downtime I have off the firing line in a course.

lipadj46 · July 12, 2009, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahah.....if its no big deal how does the manufacturer save $400 or $500 by not doing it...

Here hows this...attention to detail...if you cant bother properly staking the gas keys.......????

I'm not trying to get into a big swinging d!&k contest here I know you like Colt's and you make your living by selling them. Does Colt build a better AR than say Bushmaster or CMMG? A little yes, but it's not because of the gas key staking. My point is people make too big of a deal about gas key staking.

But now we are off topic as usual.

Wildalaska · July 12, 2009, 10:42 AM

Quote:

I'm not trying to get into a big swinging d!&k contest here

Then why are you starting one

Quote:

I know you like Colt's and you make your living by selling them.

Are you thus implying that the answers I give are less than intellectually honest?

And by the way, I am glad that I can provide Colts to folks at an affordable price. So are many others.

Quote:

Does Colt build a better AR than say Bushmaster or CMMG? A little yes, but it's not because of the gas key staking.

You are arguing for the sake of arguing. Let me be perfectly clear...those that have specked out the AR for military use require properly staked gas keys. Its a quality control issue. It has its underlying reasoning that has been pointed out to you. nevertheless, you continue to argue, even recognizing that Colt makes a better AR

Quote:

But now we are off topic as usual.

No sir...you are

WildreadthedepotmaintenancemanualsbythewayAlaska TM

seanie · July 12, 2009, 12:26 PM

I'm thinking about getting an AR in the somewhat near future. If you don't stake the gas keys, can you loctite them?

Magi · July 12, 2009, 12:33 PM

Loctite doesn't like heat. Stake your gas key screws yourself and be done with it.

**44 AMP** · July 12, 2009, 01:01 PM

I was a Small Arms Repairman (MOS 45B20) for Uncle Sam for most of the latter 1970s. We worked on the M16A1. We did everything, except repair on the lower reciever itself (that went to depot level maint).

Much of the specs I still recall clearly (and could look up if I needed to). The Bolt carrier key screws are to be torqued to 35-40 inch/lbs, and then staked.

You (the user) don't take it apart. Ever! You (the unit armorer) don't take it apart. Ever! Me (the Direct/General Support Maint guy) only takes it apart to replace a damaged part. Period.

Those were the Army rules in those days. Since there has been no fundmental change in the rifle's design (of those parts), I see no reason why they should not still apply.

Quote:

Things I have had work loose on my AR due to the vibration of shooting rotating some threaded part:

Pistol grip
Telestock
Quad rail
Arms #40
Scope rings
ACOG handle mount

The only one of these things that existed when I was working on M16s was the pistol grip. How times change!
For your personal AR, a drop of a loctite product (I use the product called "Guntite") is your friend. The carrier key screws, however, should still be staked.

MTm7 · July 12, 2009, 02:17 PM

i really appreciate everyone's insight... thanks for sharing. i think i will post some pics of my gas keys so as to see what the majority thinks. hold tight!

RT · July 12, 2009, 02:32 PM

Should look like this...

Alleykat · July 12, 2009, 05:49 PM

I can't imagine ever having to replace a gas key. However, I also can't imagine the blather about "improperly staked gas keys." My Bushy, with its (according to the "experts" on this and other forums) "improperly staked" gas key, is still going strong after 15 yrs. and thousands of rounds. Never fails. I had a choice between a Colt :barf: and a Bushy when I bought my first AR; only about $50 difference in price. Glad I got the Bushy. Never have seen a Colt outshoot my Bushy out at our local range.

Anybody who knows jack about ARs knows that the quality of the barrels and triggers is the only real difference in ARs, regardless of some sophomoric "chart"!!!

July 11, 2009, 11:47 AM	#1
MTm7 Member Join Date: January 24, 2009 Posts: 17	"improperly staked gas keys"? could somebody help me out...what does improperly staked or not staked gas keys mean? i was reading a thread over on ar15.com about dpms rifles suffering from said problem. i just bought one now im thinking i made a mistake... what gives?

July 11, 2009, 12:07 PM	#2
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	The gas key is the little thingy that sticks up on top of the bolt carrier and has a hole to fit over the end of the gas tube (this is what makes the rifle cycle when high-pressure gas comes from the barrel). It is bolted onto the top of the bolt carrier with 2 socket-head or Torx screws. Thes screws can back out due to vibration, allowing the gas key to move around and causing misalignment with the gas tube and generally reduced reliability of cycling when the rifle is fired. "Staking" is using a punch or swage to raise the metal around the screws so that it jams the screws, causing a physical lock and keeping them from loosening. Many AR rifles come with gas keys poorly staked or not staked at all. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

July 11, 2009, 01:05 PM	#5
MTm7 Member Join Date: January 24, 2009 Posts: 17	thanks! thanks scorch and zoomie.... VERY helpful!

July 11, 2009, 09:41 PM	#9
smoakingun Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2009 Location: melrose, fl Posts: 634	so, once you stake it, how do you get it apart should you have to? __________________ Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.

July 11, 2009, 10:21 PM	#13
smoakingun Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2009 Location: melrose, fl Posts: 634	everything needs to be replaced eventually __________________ Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.

July 11, 2009, 12:15 PM	#3
zoomie Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2006 Location: GA Posts: 1,864	http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6993 If yours is mediocre or bad, it's easy to fix or get fixed.

July 11, 2009, 12:18 PM	#4
lipadj46 Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2009 Posts: 494	Seriously people make a real big deal out of nothing. If you have a small punch, a hammer and a vise you can stake it yourself in under a minute.

July 11, 2009, 08:36 PM	#7
Alleykat Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2007 Posts: 3,668	It's much more "fashionable" to post about "improperly staked gas keys" than to not post about "improperly staked gas keys." Chances are, if your AR's gas key is staked, it'll work just fine.

July 11, 2009, 09:08 PM	#8
jeffatus Member Join Date: November 10, 2008 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 19	If you bought your rifle for an accurate plinker at the range, you will probably be very happy with it. I have heard good things about their accuracy. As for things like a properly staked key, I would only worry about it if you are planning on using your gun for self defence or in case of an emergency. If so, then check out the attached links below: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...QsEuEhjFwPrgTA (Read the Explanation of Features, then the Specs Graph) http://www.tacticalyellowvisor.net/8343/16001.html http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81462 These are resources I refer to from time to time when building my AR. If I wanted a gun for plinking, I would not really care beyond getting whatever options I wanted on the AR when I bought it. Hope that helps.

July 11, 2009, 10:23 PM	#14
Wildalaska Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 14,172	If my gas key wears out I will probably be worrying about a lot more than that. WildhasanyoneherereplacedoneAlaska TM

July 11, 2009, 10:30 PM	#15
smoakingun Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2009 Location: melrose, fl Posts: 634	Me too. I've been machining, and turning wrenches for a couple of decades now, and I have learned a few things. make sure you can take it apart if you have to. If it is something you worry about comming loose, check it often. __________________ Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.

July 11, 2009, 11:13 PM	#16
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"Staking" is the same as peening. Keeps the part in place. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

July 12, 2009, 12:26 PM	#20
seanie Senior Member Join Date: April 1, 2009 Location: IL Posts: 147	I'm thinking about getting an AR in the somewhat near future. If you don't stake the gas keys, can you loctite them?

July 12, 2009, 12:33 PM	#21
Magi Junior member Join Date: July 5, 2009 Location: Earth Posts: 127	Loctite doesn't like heat. Stake your gas key screws yourself and be done with it.

July 12, 2009, 02:17 PM	#23
MTm7 Member Join Date: January 24, 2009 Posts: 17	i really appreciate everyone's insight... thanks for sharing. i think i will post some pics of my gas keys so as to see what the majority thinks. hold tight!

July 12, 2009, 02:32 PM	#24
RT Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2000 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 2,194	Should look like this...

July 12, 2009, 05:49 PM	#25
Alleykat Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2007 Posts: 3,668	I can't imagine ever having to replace a gas key. However, I also can't imagine the blather about "improperly staked gas keys." My Bushy, with its (according to the "experts" on this and other forums) "improperly staked" gas key, is still going strong after 15 yrs. and thousands of rounds. Never fails. I had a choice between a Colt :barf: and a Bushy when I bought my first AR; only about $50 difference in price. Glad I got the Bushy. Never have seen a Colt outshoot my Bushy out at our local range. Anybody who knows jack about ARs knows that the quality of the barrels and triggers is the only real difference in ARs, regardless of some sophomoric "chart"!!!