Why not a .38 Super?

[gmarr]

I just picked up a Colt Government in 'New Old Stock' condition. Besides a couple of magazines I just ordered (only came with one) the gun is excellent. Always wanted a .38 Super and finally got it.

So, why has the .38 Super fallen off the 'radar' so to speak? I get there are more popular calibers, I have several, and my other favorite the 10mm is now making a comeback, but this caliber has very impressive stats and is both very accurate and easy to shoot.

Are the mainstream calibers, 9mm, .40, .45, 10mm, that much better performing than the Super? All the new guns I see are platforms rather than a new cartridge. So again, why is it the forgotten child?

[74A95]

The 'mainstream' calibers are not better performing than the 38 Super. There might be many reasons why the 38 Super has become less common over the years, but it's not because of its performance.

[SIGSHR]

The 38 Super is rather like the 41 Magnum-introduced to fill a niche-a "caliber gap"-that really wasn't there. Also there were problems with accuracy until it was found that headspacing on the chamber mouth instead of the rim was the right way.

[RickB]

.38 Super was all but dead until it was resurrected by practical pistol competition in the 1990s.
Even though it wasn't really popular otherwise, there were more guns, more parts, etc., available as a result.
Today, it's fading from competition, largely replaced by 9mm, so I'd expect it to fade on a larger scale, again.

I use my Super only for competition, tailoring my loads to suit the applicable rules.

In my experience, Super is considerably more reliable when shot in a 1911 than is 9mm, and that's why I chose it over 9mm.
If you don't handload, then the cost difference alone is probably enough for most people to choose 9, instead.

[mcb66]

It's a cycle. it will never be a top tier round, but eventually someone will feature it in a competition, movie, or TV show and it will have another resurgence.

[Bimus]

I had a uncle that had a 38 super when I was a boy in the 60's and 70's he carried it in a military shoulder holster any time we hunted fished or just out in the woods he always had the same 1911 model pistol.
years latter I saved up and went to look at and buy a 38 super the owner of the gun store tells me that 38 super has nothing to do with 38 caliber it's really a 9mm .

That day I learned that who ever names cartridges not be trusted

I bought my first 45 acp that day after I checked that it was really a 45

[RickB]

I tried to buy a box of .38 Super ammo at a gun store, the guy brought a box of .38 Special and said, "It works in all .38s, that's why it's special".

[Brutus]

Just got into the 38 super myself. It was on my bucket list and I always thought a commander size would be the bees knees but since I already have a 1911 commander in my chosen defense round .45ACP. I decided to go with a full size target pistol. Bought a Dan Wesson PM-38 and boy is it a tack driver.
As a reloader ammo cost isn't an issue, more than happy with my choice.

I think part of the allure is the fact it is a American 38 super as opposed to a European puny bellum.

[Rangerrich99]

Here's a link that may explain the whys and why nots of the .38 Super more precisely than I can.

The bottom line appears to be that the MODERN .38 Super is a far cry from the original offerings, and should be a very good chambering for defensive purposes. Ballistically, anyway.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/38-super-vs-9mm-best/

[Sevens]

All these posts and nobody mentioned it's silly semi-rimmed case? That "feature" takes away from the round, even so much as to spawn the .38 SuperComp.

Love the semi-rim or hate it... marvel at other's frustrations or call them a weenie for being fristrated at it... either way, that semi-rimmed case has not helped and if anything hurt the popularity of the .38 Super.

[Hammerhead]

It doesn't fit in small frame Glocks

[Cosmodragoon]

If I was a 1911 guy and I came into a gun chambered for .38 Super, I'd use it. In my very limited experience, it's like 9mm with a little more velocity. It was fun and easy to shoot on the full-sized 1911 I tried with it. Overall, it was a nice change from the usual .45 acp.

[Radny97]

I get why the 38 Super is still around. You get the same mag capacity in full sized guns that you get for 9mm with a bit more punch. That’s what makes it popular with the competitors . What i can’t figure out is why the 38 Super semi-rimmed cartridge has been more popular than the 9x23 win. Same increase in power, no semi-rim, same capacity. Frankly the FBI should have chosen it over the 40. No idea why not. Maybe someone can educate me.

[rock185]

It is likely the "forgotten child" because the Super was never adopted as a standard US military caliber, and never adopted as standard by the FBI. Calibers adopted by these entities tend to do well in the civilian marketplace.

That being said, I'm a long time fan of the Super, and have owned several examples manufactured by Colt, Kimber and STI. Within my humble experience, the Super really begins to shine over the 9MM with the heavier, 147 grain, etc, bullets. With lighter bullets, actual chronographed velocities of factory and reloaded 38 Super and 9MM ammunition I've tested is not as great as many may imagine. Much as I like the Super, have to say that 9MM pistols I've owned by Dan Wesson, Kimber and STI have been every bit as reliable as my guns chambered in 38 Super. In fact, I have one Kimber 38 Super that, with the addition of a 9MM barrel and magazine, performs flawlessly in both calibers.

[Hal]

Frankly the FBI should have chosen it over the 40. No idea why not. Maybe someone can educate me.

I have nothing at all but speculation to back this up---but---I strongly suspect that,,,, .40 S&W,,,had a whole lot to do with the why. We'll never know what took place behind closed doors & who got what.

[robert1804]

I just got into 38 Super with a Les Baer P II, 5"barrel. I have other 1911's in 45 and 9mm and just needed an excuse to get another one. I'm now at 550 rounds with various loads and bullet types, not one failure. 38 super is basically the same length as 45 auto so it has the potential to feed reliably in 1911's. The straight wall case is simpler to reload than the tapered 9mm. The semi-rimmed case has not been a problem at all.

The things I really like about 38 Super is the accuracy and the nice supersonic bark of most loads. 9mm with 124gr bullets has to be loaded fairly hot to reliably be supersonic. Loads that straddle the sound barrier won't be as accurate. The extra 20% case capacity of the 38 Super over the 9mm allows higher velocity without pushing the edge.

The only negative for 38 Super it brass. Most 1911's in 38 Super eject brass pretty far. I bought Starline nickel plated cases which makes them much easier to find. I've only lost 17 cases out of that first 550 fired. Also, 38 Super is one of those rounds that's best if you reload. I shoot lots of 9mm and reload it as a hobby. I reload 38 Super for low cost and accuracy, and for fun.

I like 38 Super enough that I just ordered an EAA Witness in the standard 4 1/2" steel model.

[Mike Irwin]

For whatever reason I've always wanted a .38 Super, but it's always come down to the fact that I've wanted other guns more.

The Super got a bad reputation for accuracy when it first came out and it took a long time for it to recover from that.

I bought an EAA Witness years ago, and when I did I was waffling back and forth between the 10mm and .38 Super. I finally decided to go with the 10.

One of these days I'll pick one up, just need to figure out what kind. I'd think a Colt Lightweight in .38 Super would be the bee's knees...

[RickB]

Frankly the FBI should have chosen it over the 40. No idea why not. Maybe someone can educate me.

I have nothing at all but speculation to back this up---but---I strongly suspect that,,,, .40 S&W,,,had a whole lot to do with the why. We'll never know what took place behind closed doors & who got what.

One of the same problems that the FBI had with the 10mm; it requires a gun with a "long action" to accommodate it, while .40 and 9mm fit in a more compact gun.
The FBI didn't like the circumference of the grip or the long reach to the trigger on the large-frame 10mm they adopted, when their watered-down "FBI Lite" load could be replicated by .40 S&W.

[Lohman446]

The problem is that the 38 Super, as we know it, is a solution in search of a problem.

No there is nothing wrong with it. I have often wanted one.

The "problem" is the why? Even at its "height" it was a niche thing

[jr24]

My next 1911, whenever I get around to buying another, will be a DW Guardian in .38 Super.

I like reloading and the .38 super intreques me.

[44 AMP]

nobody mentioned it's silly semi-rimmed case? That "feature" takes away from the round,

That's a commonly held opinion, today. For the first half century or so, it didn't matter very much.

the semi-rim case is a holdover from the early days, but has become essentially like the human appendix. Serving no real purpose anymore, and a potential source of problems.

All of Browning's early case designs have that semi-rim. The .25, .32, and the .38. Because, at the time they were designed, it was not a certain thing that chambering on the case mouth would work reliably. The idea was new, and rather unproven at that time.

By the time Browning designed the .45, the rimless headspace on the case mouth concept had proven itself in the field, and so the .45ACP is rimless.

The .38 Super, while "designed" a couple decades later, has the semi rim because it was created using the .38ACP case, with no changes to the case, only to the powder load, increasing the pressure. At that time (1929) it would have made good sense to drop the semi rim, and use a true rimless case, BUT, what "everybody knows" today wasn't something everybody knew (and knew they wanted) back then.

While the .38 Super was never hugely popular in the US, it has been very popular south of the border in Central and South American countries, many of which have laws forbidding "military" calibers, so the 9mm and the .45 were out, leaving the .38 Super to dominate private ownership in those places.

Also note that, until the adoption of the 9mm by the US govt, the .38 Super was as, if not more popular in private sales.

Today, we are inundated with choices that we didn't have in the past, and its easy to forget that this was not always so. There were decades when the only US made 9mm was the Colt Government Model and in those guns, the 9mm was decidedly inferior in performance to the .38 Super. later the Colt had to compete with the S&W 39. The only double stack pistol in 9mm was the Browning Hi Power (P.35), and it wasn't made in the US.

Later S&W introduced their double stack model 59, but it wasn't until a decade or so after that when the "wondernine" explosion of designs took place, leading to where we are now, with lots and lots of choices that simply didn't exist in the past.

The main reasons the FBI didn't choose the .38 Super in the fallout from the 86 Miami massacre are two. The first one is politics/prestige. And the other is that the Super didn't fit in the 9mm frame guns and the .40S&W did.

[Sevens]

That is a PHENOMENAL post and explanation of the .38 Super and of the semi-rimmed case. And I love the angle and use of "human appendix", that is crafty and effective writing.

Hear, hear!

[MoArk Willy]

I've had a Taurus PT38 for about 15 years.
With factory ammo I would call it in the middle of a 9mm and 357.
Perhaps a 9mm magnum would be a good description.
It's a snappy round. Ammo can be both hard to find and pricey. I reload my own so it's not too big of an issue.
I'm quite happy with the gun.

[Cosmodragoon]

... a solution in search of a problem.

This is the lamest challenge to every new cartridge, even after the fact. Even if things like technological development or breaking new ground didn't have merit on their own, this challenge is usually wrong.

Once upon a time, .45 acp was the big deal. It worked fairly well against enemy soldiers and ordinary bad guys. However, it wasn't exactly famous for its penetration. With bad guys riding in cars and starting to wear armor that was somewhat effective against the .32s, .38s, and .45 acp of the day; THERE WAS A QUESTION! The .38 Super might not have been perfect but it was certainly an answer. Of course, the .357 magnum we all know and love today would show up as an arguably better answer shortly thereafter.

[armoredman]

44 AMP, great post, thank you. I've wanted a 38 Super here and there, but never managed to get one.