Which is the better round? - Page 2

Don Fischer · December 22, 2018, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dufus

I can shoot a 240 gr Woodleigh PP bullet in a 30-06 and I can't do it in a 308 Win. One of my 30-06 rifles has a long throat.

So far, it punches thru paper just fine. I will let ya know when I bag some game with it.

Why you might ask?? Just because I can. It also has a little bit more recoil than a 150 gr.

If I wanted to shoot a 240gr bullet, I wouldn't choose a 30-06 to shoot it in!

Dufus · December 22, 2018, 05:29 PM

Quote:

If I wanted to shoot a 240gr bullet, I wouldn't choose a 30-06 to shoot it in!

Regardless of your thoughts, Woodleigh designed the bullet expressly for the 30-06.

stagpanther · December 22, 2018, 05:35 PM

I shoot 225's on up in both 358 win and 35 Whelen. What is the point here?

Rob62 · December 22, 2018, 06:09 PM

One of the best threads for saying the same thing LOTS of different ways.

Hopefully the OP and others have a better understanding for which cartridge is "better"...

Regards,

Rob

Paul B. · December 25, 2018, 02:31 PM

"The 30-06 shoots the same bullets 100-150 fps faster with about 25% more recoil in rifles that are slightly longer and usually a few oz heavier. In practical terms a 308 does exactly the same thing a 30-06 does about 50 yards closer."

That may not be necessarily accurate.

A few years back I did a limited test of Winchester 180 gr. Power Points in two .308 rifles and three 30-06's. The .308's had 18.5" and 22" barreled and the 30-06 22",24" and 26" barrels. Big W claimed 2600 FPS for the .308 and 2700 FPS for the 30-06.

Average velocity for the 18.5" rifle (Ruger RSI) was 2450 FPS, the 22" M70 2610 FPS. Average velocities from the various barrel length 06 rifles, 22", 2620 FPS.

24" was 2655 FPS average and the only one coming close to advertised speed was the 26" Ruger #1.

Further playing around that same M70 .308 delivers 2310 FPS chronographed with the 220 gr. Sierra round nose bullet.

AFAIK, only Remington sells an 06 load with 220 gr. bullet at an advertised 2400 FPS. I wonder is that load isn't also using cheated velocity in their advertising? I know apples and oranges for that last comparison but is it really considering that AFAIK no one has ever commercially loaded a 220 bullet in the .308.

I'll also admit that the 30-06 can be handloaded to a substantially hotter level as factory ammo isn't loaded to it's full potential. The original intent was testing with rifles with 22" barrels. The 18.5" and 24 and 26" barrels were run as an interesting aside to the original experiment. Temps at the time were in the mid 80's to lower 90's that afternoon. I fact, I was somewhat surprised that the .308 ammo came as close to advertised speed as it did.

To answer the OP"s original question, apparently in factory guise they might as well be considered equals. In handload though the 30-06 will win every time. The .308 is loaded to probably the highest safe level SAAMI will allow so not much room for improvement. The 30-06 due to some weaker rifles from it's past is not loaded to the same pressure level as the .308 so can be improved by judicious handloading. Naturally, YMMV.

Paul B.

Nathan · December 25, 2018, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reynolds357

.308 is a touch more accurate. .30-06 is a touch faster.

I agree with you but why? The 2 are the same, except shoulder angle and length. A longer body should align more accurately to the chamber, if all else were equal. The lower shoulder angle should align bullet to throat better, if all else were equal.

I wonder if the 308 throat or typical factory load are what make it more accurate.

Red Devil · December 25, 2018, 05:48 PM

Well...

Having a shorter/fatter case, the .308 has the potential for more consistency because it's closer to the ideal pressure vessel - spherical.

Other than that? .30-06 be da MAN.

Red

Elkins45 · December 25, 2018, 07:33 PM

If choosing between a 308 or 30-06 my primary consideration would be which one I could get in a LH action.

Bimus · December 25, 2018, 08:25 PM

All my 30-06 rifles have been older then 60 years old and my 308 rifles newer then 25years if one is more accurate then the other I have never noticed it .

reynolds357 · December 25, 2018, 09:22 PM

Quote:

I agree with you but why? The 2 are the same, except shoulder angle and length. A longer body should align more accurately to the chamber, if all else were equal. The lower shoulder angle should align bullet to throat better, if all else were equal.

I wonder if the 308 throat or typical factory load are what make it more accurate.

I don't know either, I just know extensive testing over the years has proven it is. Bart B. Posted some of the military shooting teams test results.

**44 AMP** · December 26, 2018, 12:50 PM

Quote:

the .308 has the potential for more consistency

The .308 being "more accurate" than the .30-06 is "true", studies prove it, but its also a bunch of crap when taken to mean each (and every) .308 is more accurate than each and every .30-06, which is simply not true.
But, people do it, anyway.

Yes, if your sample size is large enough, you could find one more accurate than the other, over the group of combined rifles, but while that would be a valid result mathematically, it doesn't mean anything about the rifle in your hands. Might mean something about the potential of the rifle in your hands, but the cartridge used is only one factor among the large number of factors that determine how accurate a given rifle is.

All those factors combine differently in every individual gun.

And remember there is a difference between measurable, and a significant.

gw44 · December 27, 2018, 01:27 PM

I am a hunter 100% so I like both, I use the 30.06 the most because my Browning BAR is in .06 an I really like the gun !!!!

reynolds357 · December 27, 2018, 07:32 PM

Quote:

The .308 being "more accurate" than the .30-06 is "true", studies prove it, but its also a bunch of crap when taken to mean each (and every) .308 is more accurate than each and every .30-06, which is simply not true.
But, people do it, anyway.

Yes, if your sample size is large enough, you could find one more accurate than the other, over the group of combined rifles, but while that would be a valid result mathematically, it doesn't mean anything about the rifle in your hands. Might mean something about the potential of the rifle in your hands, but the cartridge used is only one factor among the large number of factors that determine how accurate a given rifle is.

All those factors combine differently in every individual gun.

And remember there is a difference between measurable, and a significant.

It goes without saying that the discussion was in the context of "All other things being equal."

December 22, 2018, 05:35 PM	#28
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,789	I shoot 225's on up in both 358 win and 35 Whelen. What is the point here? __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

December 22, 2018, 06:09 PM	#29
Rob62 Senior Member Join Date: June 28, 1999 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 560	One of the best threads for saying the same thing LOTS of different ways. Hopefully the OP and others have a better understanding for which cartridge is "better"... Regards, Rob __________________ NRA & NAHC Life Member

December 25, 2018, 02:31 PM	#30
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,802	"The 30-06 shoots the same bullets 100-150 fps faster with about 25% more recoil in rifles that are slightly longer and usually a few oz heavier. In practical terms a 308 does exactly the same thing a 30-06 does about 50 yards closer." That may not be necessarily accurate. A few years back I did a limited test of Winchester 180 gr. Power Points in two .308 rifles and three 30-06's. The .308's had 18.5" and 22" barreled and the 30-06 22",24" and 26" barrels. Big W claimed 2600 FPS for the .308 and 2700 FPS for the 30-06. Average velocity for the 18.5" rifle (Ruger RSI) was 2450 FPS, the 22" M70 2610 FPS. Average velocities from the various barrel length 06 rifles, 22", 2620 FPS. 24" was 2655 FPS average and the only one coming close to advertised speed was the 26" Ruger #1. Further playing around that same M70 .308 delivers 2310 FPS chronographed with the 220 gr. Sierra round nose bullet. AFAIK, only Remington sells an 06 load with 220 gr. bullet at an advertised 2400 FPS. I wonder is that load isn't also using cheated velocity in their advertising? I know apples and oranges for that last comparison but is it really considering that AFAIK no one has ever commercially loaded a 220 bullet in the .308. I'll also admit that the 30-06 can be handloaded to a substantially hotter level as factory ammo isn't loaded to it's full potential. The original intent was testing with rifles with 22" barrels. The 18.5" and 24 and 26" barrels were run as an interesting aside to the original experiment. Temps at the time were in the mid 80's to lower 90's that afternoon. I fact, I was somewhat surprised that the .308 ammo came as close to advertised speed as it did. To answer the OP"s original question, apparently in factory guise they might as well be considered equals. In handload though the 30-06 will win every time. The .308 is loaded to probably the highest safe level SAAMI will allow so not much room for improvement. The 30-06 due to some weaker rifles from it's past is not loaded to the same pressure level as the .308 so can be improved by judicious handloading. Naturally, YMMV. Paul B. __________________ COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION! Last edited by Paul B.; December 25, 2018 at 02:37 PM.

December 25, 2018, 05:48 PM	#32
Red Devil Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2010 Posts: 274	Well... Having a shorter/fatter case, the .308 has the potential for more consistency because it's closer to the ideal pressure vessel - spherical. Other than that? .30-06 be da MAN. Red

December 25, 2018, 07:33 PM	#33
Elkins45 Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2010 Posts: 498	If choosing between a 308 or 30-06 my primary consideration would be which one I could get in a LH action.

December 25, 2018, 08:25 PM	#34
Bimus Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2018 Location: Farmington NM Posts: 122	All my 30-06 rifles have been older then 60 years old and my 308 rifles newer then 25years if one is more accurate then the other I have never noticed it .

December 27, 2018, 01:27 PM	#37
gw44 Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2015 Location: Michigan Posts: 311	I am a hunter 100% so I like both, I use the 30.06 the most because my Browning BAR is in .06 an I really like the gun !!!!