Do trigger characteristics matter in a self defense situation?

[Sigkid79]

My question is, how big of a factor does the trigger make in a life/death defensive shooting situation? No one in a predicament where you have to fire your weapon is thinking about the wall, travel, break, reset, etc….

To each it’s own, but I buy firearms solely for self defense whether it be for the home or while out in public. Not for sport. Sure, I’ll take it to range every few months to practice with it, but If put in a SD situation where I have to fire it, do you think I care whether its a 4lb or 5lb trigger? Do you think I care about how long the travel or reset of that trigger is? No. I am going to fire it regardless until that threat is eliminated.

I never understood the fascination with a firearm’s trigger outside of competition/sport shooting. Am I missing something?

[TunnelRat]

I’m an educated man, but I must admit that I don’t know what you think in response to your numerous questions, which I’m going to go out on a limb and assume are rhetorical.

Self defense and sport aren’t entirely mutually exclusive. Speed and accuracy matter in self defense, just as they do in competition. Do I think people make more out of hardware differences when I think the software, the skill of the shooter, matters more? Sure, but it doesn’t have to be all one way or the other. For years I shot a HK P2000. It was a great pistol and a favorite of mine. But I found that even in shooting that pistol by itself and regularly I would occasionally short stroke the trigger due to the longish reset. So I eventually moved on to other pistols. In my experience the features you mentioned do matter in ways that I can see being important in self defense, even if you’re not consciously thinking about them. If you feel differently that’s fair, but your post almost comes across as if you’re annoyed at the people that don’t feel the same. That I don’t understand.

[Sigkid79]

Not annoyed. It’s just that of the 100’s of YouTube review videos that I’ve watched over the years, every reviewer happens to focus heavily on the trigger characteristics. Again, if you’re competition shooting, or shooting solely for sport, I can truly understand how something as minor as the reset, etc can effect your performance. As for SD, I cant see how small things such as the characteristics mentioned above regarding the trigger can matter. Now, surely nobody wants an awful trigger and i”ll take a good trigger over a bad trigger any day.

[Skippy]

I think I understand what you're saying, but my take is that a decent trigger improves accuracy better than with a not so decent trigger. And accuracy begats safety.

Granted, a person who practices with a gun with a crappy trigger will get better - to a point. But they reach a point of diminishing returns on the time invested.

I don't compete and probably never will, and I'm not a trigger snob. But I've shot some guns with loooong trigger pulls, squishy triggers, heavy triggers, hair triggers, gritty triggers and inconsistent triggers.

I'd rather not fight my own gun in a gunfight.

Just my 2¢.

_______________
*I'd give right arm to be ambidextrous*

[TunnelRat]

So in my case reset did matter.

The reality of firearm reviews is that many of the firearms today are very similar. They’re more often than not polymer framed pistols feeding from detachable magazines using a Browning tilting barrel. Trigger and ergonomics are some of the areas where notable differences can still be found. If you don’t like the reviews that mention those characteristics or you find they don’t cover content relevant to you, you don’t have to watch them. I also find a lot of people tend to take reviews personally. That may not be the case for you, but I have seen people get seemingly mad at reviewers for giving less positive reviews about a firearm they happen to like. At the end of the day whether a stranger on the internet does or doesn’t like your gun is sort of irrelevant.

[44 AMP]

To each it’s own, but I buy firearms solely for self defense whether it be for the home or while out in public. Not for sport. Sure, I’ll take it to range every few months to practice with it, but If put in a SD situation where I have to fire it, do you think I care whether its a 4lb or 5lb trigger? Do you think I care about how long the travel or reset of that trigger is? No. I am going to fire it regardless until that threat is eliminated.

OK, you're at the opposite end of the spectrum from where I am. I buy firearms for sport and the enjoyment of shooting them, not for self defense. There's no doubt (zero, none at all) that my sporting guns will serve me well if I ever do need to use them for defense.

And in a self defense situation, you might not care about if its a 4 or 5lb trigger, but you WILL care about length of pull and reset if you don't get them "right".

I don't compete, so my guns aren't optimized for that. But I do prefer good (and adjustable when I can get them) sights, and a decent (or better) trigger pull to be important.

Consider this, guns with poor triggers, (and poor sights) are not as easy to be accurate with, not as fun to shoot, and therefore a lot less likely to be practiced with. And, it is proper practice that turns something that is a skill you need to work at into one that becomes automatic, and able to be done without conscious thought.

Going to the range every few months doesn't build those skills.

Like any other skill that requires eye-hand coordination, only practicing once in a while doesn't move you beyond the most basic ability. And that basic skill set rarely becomes automatic. So, when you need to do something without the time luxury of being able to think through what you plan to do (which you ALWAYS have at the range) you don't have any "preprogramed" responses. That can cause hesitation and hesitation can get you in trouble.

Now, does this matter at belly to belly distance? Not much, USUALLY.

Without enough practice to "know" where your controls are, where the reset on the trigger is, where the gun hits at different ranges, using the sights, or by instinctive pointing, you are at a huge potential disadvantage. One that your attacker might not allow you the time to figure out.

Look at it another way, if you need to think about whether to use the brake or the gas, and then think about which pedal that is, odds are low you will respond properly in the fractions of a second you need to avoid an accident.

To me, its just common sense that if you have something your life may someday depend on you using it properly and as fast as possible, then you should practice with that, doing that, until it becomes something you don't need to think about.

[Skippy]

@44AMP makes some very good points.

HOWEVER I would hazard to guess the majority of successful defensive gun uses - with shots fired - are by civilians who rarely, if ever, go to the range to practice.

I read it somewhere on the Internet so it must be true.

_______________
*I'd give right arm to be ambidextrous*

[Sigkid79]

Originally Posted by Skippy

@44AMP makes some very good points.

HOWEVER I would hazard to guess the majority of successful defensive gun uses - with shots fired - are by civilians who rarely, if ever, go to the range to practice.

I read it somewhere on the Internet so it must be true.

_______________
*I'd give right arm to be ambidextrous*

Practicing at the range familiarizes one with his/her firearm and how to be proficient with it. Nothing more unless your taking self defense active shooter simulation drills. Even then, it does nothing to prepare you for a real life situation where bullets are being fired at you and you have a range of thoughts and emotions going through your mind/body, but I guess it can help better prepare you in the event of one than not practicing at all.

Ive even seen law enforcement officers who have been training for these scenarios for many years absolutely freeze up and/or recklessly perform adrenaline rushing mag dumps one after another while in the heat of firefight. I guess one will never know how they will perform until they are unfortunately placed in that type of predicament.

[Nathan]

I’m not experienced in gunfighting. So, I read what those who are say. I read it is important to be able to make quality hits quickly.

To be objective, I define this as speed of draw to shot or shot to shot on a paper plate at 7 yards as important.

Among my many guns, I see differences in speed.

I think you should start defining bad triggers as those that are too light to feel right at speed or too long/heavy to achieve good splits. Do you have a timer in your training?

[stinkeypete]

My experience with military surplus triggers is that they are heavy and gritty but reliable. That should answer your question.

[JohnKSa]

I can tell you that the less you have to consciously concentrate on your trigger technique, the faster and more accurately you will shoot.

There are two ways to manage that.

You can practice a LOT until your trigger technique is second nature and you can shoot well even under pressure without having to consciously concentrate on working the trigger properly. This is called unconscious competence and it takes a LOT of practice/training--especially if the trigger you are working on is not really easy to shoot.

You can get a trigger that is very easy to shoot so that you can shoot it well even when you can't consciously concentrate on trigger technique. This isn't a perfect solution, because even an easy to shoot trigger can be yanked or jerked, resulting in a bad shot.

[HiBC]

I asked my LGS to order a particular well known 9mm compact polymer striker double stack handgun for me. An issue with ordering one is you get the one that comes.
When I got it home,the trigger sucked. It was off the scale on my trigger pull gauge.
I hooked it up to an unopened 8 lb jug of Varget and it lifted it. My Garand was handy so I hooked it up to the stacking swivel. The Garand was enough.

So roughly a 9 lb trigger. It might be OK for YOU, Enjoy! But not me.

I agonized over altering a SD gun for a while. Eventually installed an Apex Duty/Carry kit. Its a good pull, on the 4 to 5 lb range.

I do not need/want a 2 1/2 lb Bullseye trigger on a SD gun. But it needs to be good enough to place a CNS "disconnect" shot at 10 yds or a torso hit at 50 yds.(or more)

Good shooting is mostly skill but a good (enough) trigger makes it more attainable.

Shifting to AR rifles to illustrate: Yes,a $250 Gisselle is a very nice trigger. A joy! An OOOoooo,AAhhh Trigger.

A bargain lower parts kit military style trigger might be annoying and unsuitable.

But so far a reasonably priced 2 stage Rock River NM is adequate. I'm satisfied. Its not holding me back. I'm happy.

A trigger can be bad enough to "hold me back" from reasonably accurate shooting .

I'm not a trigger prima donna,but my trigger has to be "good enough" or I get rid of the gun. "Trigger sucks" is a good reason.

[RickB]

Hitting a target, any target under any circumstances, is easier with a good trigger, and being conditioned to the feel of a trigger is good, too.

The vast majority of the handgun shooting I do is with single action auto pistols, all with triggers in the 3.5-4.0 pound range, so I'm never surprised by the weight, travel, reset, presence of thumb safety, etc.

I bought a new carry gun, with a factory rating of 6-7 pounds on the trigger, so had a trigger job done on it so it would fall within the range of the rest of the guns I usually shoot.

[Sigkid79]

Now I get that everyone has preferences when it comes to their firearms. I myself have went through several edc firearms before I found the one that suits me best.

For example, I have sold firearms that have better triggers and held more capacity than my current EDC (Springfield Armory XDS-9 Mod 2) just because the XDS feels better in my hand and I’m more accurate with it. I actually got rid of a S&W Shield Plus for the XDS although the Shield Plus had a better trigger. Does that mean if SHTF, the slightly worse trigger of the XDS would matter if I had to use it in a SD situation? Some may have their opinion on that, but I dont see how it would, and that is the entire basis of this thread.

Yes I would prefer an EDC with a better trigger. I think everyone would, but the trigger characteristics dont tell the entire story if faced with a SD situation and you need to put shots on target to eliminate a threat. Especially within typical SD shooting distances.

[Nathan]

Lots of interesting posts here. Good conversation. My point before was just if better doesn’t show up on the timer or target, it really doesn’t matter much.

It is funny you sold the Shield Plus for the XDS. I sold an XDS because it just sat in my safe. I bought the Shield Plus to replace a Shield with an optic. I’m still on the fence about the optic. I shoot it well enough, but it is weird. Accuracy is better, but speed is the same or a hair off.

All that said, when triggering my SD guns fast, weight doesn’t mean much. I see too many folks shooting too slow to be effective and then talking about triggers, sights, etc. I found that when working on speed, with shots kept within acceptable group, most things beyond fit to hand, didn’t matter as much.

[Sigkid79]

Originally Posted by Nathan

Lots of interesting posts here. Good conversation. My point before was just if better doesn’t show up on the timer or target, it really doesn’t matter much.

It is funny you sold the Shield Plus for the XDS. I sold an XDS because it just sat in my safe. I bought the Shield Plus to replace a Shield with an optic. I’m still on the fence about the optic. I shoot it well enough, but it is weird. Accuracy is better, but speed is the same or a hair off.

All that said, when triggering my SD guns fast, weight doesn’t mean much. I see too many folks shooting too slow to be effective and then talking about triggers, sights, etc. I found that when working on speed, with shots kept within acceptable group, most things beyond fit to hand, didn’t matter as much.

I’ll be honest, the Shield Plus shot better with less recoil and had a better trigger, but it was the grip and the trigger guard that did not work out for me. The grip was a bit too long front/back. I also found the trigger guard a bit too small for my liking. I found that I couldn’t quickly access the trigger without the guard being a hinderance while firing under pressure. The XDS checked both those boxes for me. Especially with the optional 8 round magazine which gave it an absolute perfect grip for me. Lastly, the slide release on the Shield Plus isnt actually a slide release but instead a slide stop which required you to slingshot your slide to chamber your round which I dont mind doing, but after many years of accessing the slide release on all of my other pistols, it became habit.

[Sigkid79]

I think this reviewer gives pretty sound advice. “Familiarize yourself with your firearm and become capable/comfortable shooting it”

https://youtu.be/zOw9RgeNhug

[gwpercle]

The better the trigger ... the more accurate you can shoot .

Accurate shooting in any situation beats inaccurate shooting .

In a deadly situation 1 accurate hit beats 50 in-accurate misses seven ways to Sunday .

Only hits count in a gunfight and misses will get you killed .

Gary

[Double Naught Spy]

Years ago, maybe in one of his books, Ayoob pointed to data between double action revolvers and single action 1911s and noting a higher first shot hit percentage for the 1911s by police officers. I don't recall how significant the difference was, but it was notable.

[wild cat mccane]

You're probably right and we all agree with you to a point because I'd imagine the actual number one carried gun at any given time in the day is probably the original and gen2 LCP. Nothing in those triggers is great.

I find rolling break (CZ) vs snap (Walther) makes a huge difference for my ability to hit anything slow fire?

Sig SRT resets too fast for me. Man that thing resets with zero movement and force. For me, that's too fast of a reset for anything but fun range time.
But I wouldn't want to carry my new Shadow 2 SAO either that breaks at almost the same weight as the dead weight take up...



But an HK or CZ has an unreal long reset that I would not want for any possible circumstance.

On the range, I'm opposite where my slow fire DA hit will be better than a fast breaking next SA. Like the P99. I will always make a great hit from decock, the next shot in SA will typically be my worst flier.

[MarkCO]

Originally Posted by Sigkid79

To each it’s own, but I buy firearms solely for self defense whether it be for the home or while out in public. Not for sport. Sure, I’ll take it to range every few months to practice with it, but If put in a SD situation where I have to fire it, do you think I care whether its a 4lb or 5lb trigger? Do you think I care about how long the travel or reset of that trigger is? No. I am going to fire it regardless until that threat is eliminated.

I never understood the fascination with a firearm’s trigger outside of competition/sport shooting. Am I missing something?

Stress is great at degrading accuracy. So is speed. Unless you have practiced shooting under stress at high speed, you don't know how bad you will be at being able to hit the target. Sadly true for most people, who utilize firearms in the way you describe...woefully deficient in the application of the fundamentals of shooting, when they are needed most.

Having done several shooting reconstructions as an expert, it is apparent that a moderately trained person is going to triple or more their "range qualification" group size. Some a lot more. Highly trained, practiced folks are going to see significantly less increase in group size.

Now, add in a poor, heavy trigger to the poorly trained person, which is a compounding effect. Yeah, that is not going to result in hits on target at any reasonable distance. It is one reason that folks who understand harp on regular practice just to maintain skills. A huge percentage of the folks in the US who carry a handgun are very unprepared to use it successfully.

The whole intent of practical competitions (IPSC and 3Gun originally) was to give people a format to practically use their firearms at speed and under stress. They have turned into games more than arenas to prove proficiency. Sad, but true.

[L-2]

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=610396
Is this thread the same or just slightly different from this 1/24/2021 thread (same OP)?

Just curious. Perhaps opinions can change over a couple of years or wording differences of questions will change what answers are given.

[Sgt127]

I want crisp and light. Like my Wilson .45.

Or.

Smooth and mid weight, like a good revolver or, any of my Sig DAK guns.

I can shoot them both exceptionally well.

“Release slowly to the the reset, feel the reset” is silly. When the gun fires, release the trigger and start the trigger stroke again.

If you’re gonna spend any time on the trigger, spend it pressing the trigger. Not releasing it to the perfect point.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=li0rGt...IHVzZWxlc3M%3D

[Sigkid79]

@L-2

It actually is. It is a thread that I forgot that I created over 2yrs ago as I was curious about back then I guess, and even more so now as I see more and more shooters and reviewers strongly focusing on it.

I’m actually surprised that someone actually took the time out to over 2yrs back into someone’s thread history to find a similar thread.

[44 AMP]

“Release slowly to the the reset, feel the reset” is silly.

Its not at all silly, it is fine, sound advice. FOR initial familiarization, and for slow fire target type shooting.

When the gun fires, release the trigger and start the trigger stroke again.

This is my method, works on everything I've ever fired that wasn't full auto.

Easing the trigger forward until it resets (and no more) then pulling it again, could be faster, once learned, but it requires a few conditions in order for that to work AND be faster than just releasing the trigger.

First thing needed is an audible/tactile reset point. One that you can feel or at worst, hear, in order to tell the trigger has reset.

Second, it requires a gun with a consistent trigger pull. Most do that, but I have fired guns that did not. One of those happened to be a GLock.
(and before you go off saying "Glocks don't do that",,,that one DID. It wasn't a "design feature", other Glocks I've shot didn't do it, but that one, did. )

And the third thing needed to learn and use the "only release to the reset point" is being aware that, if you are using more than one gun, that reset point is likely to be different on each one. If you only use one gun, its not an issue, but releasing the trigger completely (all pressure off) works with everything. If you short stroke the trigger, the gun does not fire. TO me, this matters more heavily than the possible saving of fractions of a second.