The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 4, 2020, 09:47 AM   #101
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 2,877
Quote:
So I know the new norm is that the 45 acp is outdated for basic self defense and, while effective, is outperformed, "overall", when capacity and the limitations of handguns are taken into account.

The 45 ACP has been outperformed by the 357 magnum since 1935. I love the 45 ACP, I carried a 1911 in the Army and some since then. Logic should win over emotion, even with the high cap 9mm's I stayed with a wheelgun for decades because I run them so well.

These days I carry a 357 or 40 glock.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old October 4, 2020, 10:31 AM   #102
burbank_jung
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2019
Posts: 472
Nanuk, why do you choose the .40 S&W?
burbank_jung is offline  
Old October 4, 2020, 11:14 AM   #103
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 14,846
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodfac
Military use has a different set of constraints...not the least of which is the size of the gun vs. the spectrum of military personnel. The 9mm was chosen in large measure to satisfy that metric as well as the oft quoted need to standardize ammunition throughout NATO components. Anecdotally, I've met many desert war vets who were less than enthused with the 9mm currently in use and expressed a desire for a better round/gun.
To add another anecdote -- the brother-in-law of a younger friend of mine (met through common membership in a Jeep club) is a [former] Marine. When the b-i-l went gun shopping for himself and his wife, they got a 9mm Glock for her (because GLOCK!, I suppose), but he wanted a Beretta because that's what he knew from his military service. But he didn't want 9mm, so he bought his Beretta in .40 S&W.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is online now  
Old October 4, 2020, 12:43 PM   #104
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 22,198
Quote:
The 45 ACP has been outperformed by the 357 magnum since 1935.
The .45ACP has been outperformed by the .45 Colt since 1873.

What's your point?

As to veteran's opinions, talk to enough vets and you'll get every opinion possible. I've known some WWII vets who wouldn't take a 9mm as a gift. (other than the Luger they took off a "dead nazi"....)

I don't hold "veteran's" opinions in any special regard, just because they are veteran's opinions. I'm a veteran. Both my kids are veterans (one went to Bagdad, the other never left the states...) My Dad just missed going to Korea. My Grandfather was both a WWI and WWII veteran.

Veterans are just like everyone else, some know what they are talking about, some don't. The only difference is veterans have done their duty in military service. I'm very glad (most) people respect that, again.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is online now  
Old October 4, 2020, 07:20 PM   #105
burbank_jung
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2019
Posts: 472
What I am alluding to is that the 45 Colt is a big bullet and seems to have done the job well during the time it was used. I thought the .45acp was similar. Apparently I am wrong. If so, I was saying that a .45 would be thought of as more effective than a 9mm if used during the same conditions the 45 Colt was used.

Here is a hypothetical question. Will the 9mm stop a Morro pumped up with drugs and coming at you with a machette and intent on chopping you up? Or, will a 45acp be more effective?
burbank_jung is offline  
Old October 4, 2020, 07:31 PM   #106
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 2,877
Quote:
Nanuk, why do you choose the .40 S&W?
It was issued. Logistics.

It is actually a good round with the right ammo for the job. I prefer 155 JHP's in the HST variety. Fast 155's replicate a 158 grain 357 mag fired from a 4" BBL and 180's replicate the 185 grn 45 ACP.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old October 4, 2020, 07:32 PM   #107
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 2,877
Quote:
The .45ACP has been outperformed by the .45 Colt since 1873.

What's your point?
Wrong. The 45 ACP was developed to replicate the 45 colt. Before you get on about Ruger loads.... 460 Rowland......
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old October 4, 2020, 08:24 PM   #108
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 2,877
Quote:
What I am alluding to is that the 45 Colt is a big bullet and seems to have done the job well during the time it was used. I thought the .45acp was similar. Apparently I am wrong. If so, I was saying that a .45 would be thought of as more effective than a 9mm if used during the same conditions the 45 Colt was used.
The 45 ACP was developed to replicate the 45 Colt. Depends, bullet technology and velocity is the only thing help the 9mm. Ball ammo in anything sucks.


Quote:
Here is a hypothetical question. Will the 9mm stop a Morro pumped up with drugs and coming at you with a machette and intent on chopping you up? Or, will a 45acp be more effective?
Dunno.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT0K...ctr=1601862821
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old October 4, 2020, 08:33 PM   #109
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 22,198
Quote:
Wrong. The 45 ACP was developed to replicate the 45 colt.
No, sorry this is incorrect. A quick look at the specs shows the difference. The .45 Colt used a 255gr bullet over 40 gr of black powder delivering velocity in the 900fps range, depending on barrel length.

The Army adopted the round, along with the Colt Single Action revolver in 1873.

In 1875 the Army went looking for more revolvers to supplement the Colt SAA, and adopted the S&W "Schofield" single action break top revolver. This gun had a frame & cylinder too short to take the .45 Colt round, so a shorter cased .45 caliber round was developed. This is the .45 S&W aka the .45 Schofield, and also known as the .45 Govt when loaded by govt arsenals.

The .45 Schoefield used a 230gr bullet over 28gr of black powder and delivered velocity in the 800fps range. BOTH rounds were in service until 1892 when the .45 revolvers were replaced by .38s.

The shorter .45 Schofield is the performance specified by the Army for the .45 ACP. The Army required the .45ACP to replicate the performance of the .45 Schofield/.45 GOvt, NOT the performance of the .45 Colt.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is online now  
Old October 4, 2020, 08:53 PM   #110
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 2,877
AMP,

depends on who you listen too. Either way there is not enough difference between the 45 Colt, 45 ACP and the 45 Schofield to get excited about. Either way have a nice evening.

https://www.ammoland.com/2016/07/his...acp-cartridge/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP

https://military.wikia.org/wiki/.45_ACP

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/...igins-history/
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old October 4, 2020, 09:32 PM   #111
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 23,257
Quote:
Here is a hypothetical question. Will the 9mm stop a Morro pumped up with drugs and coming at you with a machette and intent on chopping you up? Or, will a 45acp be more effective?
Some reports suggest that only a 12ga did a really good job at stopping the Moros.
Quote:
Either way there is not enough difference between the 45 Colt, 45 ACP and the 45 Schofield to get excited about.
Or between the .40S&W and the .357Mag?

Probably true since some would say that's true of any of the members of the service pistol caliber group.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old October 5, 2020, 12:00 AM   #112
TruthTellers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 22, 2016
Posts: 3,414
This is just another caliber war thread, but I haven't partook in a caliber war for a while, so here goes.

The .45 ACP is a great cartridge to reload, very easy to reload, and I frequently pick up free brass at the range to load it. That and being naturally subsonic with 230gr bullets is the only reason to own a .45 ACP pistol.

I'm not a fan of the .45 for self defense because I don't like the cost of defense ammo. That's one thing I can give the 9mm credit in that even brands like Fiocchi and Wincheter make a low cost, yet good performing hollow point for 9mm. Same can be said for .40, I stocked up a long time ago LE Bonded Winchester for $20/50 rds.

.45 tho, it seems the cheapest hollow point that work is over 70 cents a round and at that point I could use a more premium 9mm or .40 for the same price and the mag in the gun would hold more of either.

But, every time I bring up the price of ammo the inevitable replies are always along the lines of "is that all your life is worth to you?" or if it's relative to the number of rounds it's "good luck explaining why you fired off 30 rds in a self defense situation."

Pfft, I guess those people are FUDDs and only have one magazine loaded for their nightstand gun and don't bother to keep extra mags loaded or if they do they load it with cheap FMJ and not buck a round boutique ammo.

The ammo capacity is another issue, albeit a lesser one. Apart from Glock, Walter, and FN, most .45 autos are 10 rd mags or less. To me it's not worth choosing a 10 rd .45 over a 15 rd .40 or 17 rd 9mm.

As to effect on animals, I saw Paul Harrell demonstrate that generic .45 hardball is as good or better than a 10mm hard cast at penetration. For things like beer, moose, cougar, buffalo, elk, etc. I can see wanting the bigger caliber, but for something like hogs or coyote, what is the .45 going to do that the .40 or 9 can't?

So, with the OP seeming to want to tie all this in to what caliber rural folk would be best served by for a handgun, the answer is a .357 revolver. Load the .357 with 158 or 180s and it's got enough power to drop a big creature, load it with .38 +P or .357 with a 125 gr pill and it's enough to stop whoever.

If this is a semi auto only topic, then honestly I don't see anything wrong with almost any caliber .380 and up. The real limiting factor for rural people is they tend to not have as much income, so it comes down to what they can afford and what is available.
__________________
"We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."
TruthTellers is offline  
Old October 5, 2020, 07:25 AM   #113
shurshot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2006
Posts: 1,402
"what caliber rural folk would be best served by for a handgun, the answer is a .357 revolver. Load the .357 with 158 or 180s and it's got enough power to drop a big creature, load it with .38 +P or .357 with a 125 gr pill and it's enough to stop whoever."

My Dad, back in the mid 80's, bought me a Taurus 66, 6" .357 based upon the above reasoning. Still have it. : Very solid, accurate gun. Very mild with .38 wadcutters.

Good, sound reasoning too... Skeeter would agree. Elmer however, would not and suggest a .44 Mag 4" revolver, with the ability to shoot either hot Magnums or milder .44 special. Also a sound argument, especially if you keep some .44 shotshells around the homestead for snakes, rats, etc.

My Maternal grandfather would have suggested a scoped semi .22 rifle as a better choice over ANY handgun, regardless of caliber, as the "one gun" solution for Rabbit, squirrel, grouse, deer... even home defense. Proper Shot placement being his depression era philosophy and experience.

Last edited by shurshot; October 5, 2020 at 07:47 AM.
shurshot is offline  
Old October 5, 2020, 11:09 AM   #114
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 22,198
Quote:
If this is a semi auto only topic,
This IS the Semi-automatic Forum, so I'd say, yeah, here it is a semi auto topic.

__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is online now  
Old October 5, 2020, 12:10 PM   #115
burbank_jung
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2019
Posts: 472
So, staying on the topic of semi-automatic pistols...and for every action there is an equal reaction.. and bullets designed similar.. For what I've shot, the 10mm has the most blast. At hot 40cal is second and I like 155gr or 165gr bullets, a box of factory .45 is third (reload and shoot those) only because the small rock size bullet, and last would be a 9mm which to me is a like a fast moving pebble. I also own a Makarov and that is my camping near civilization gun. I think I once read that the 9mm Makarov's intended use was not to shoot the enemy but execute misbehaving soldiers. Soviet military philosophy I suppose. Hollow point bullets are first. The next are bullets that have a large meplate and never a round nose.
burbank_jung is offline  
Old October 6, 2020, 01:44 AM   #116
TruthTellers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 22, 2016
Posts: 3,414
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
This IS the Semi-automatic Forum, so I'd say, yeah, here it is a semi auto topic.

I don't mean to veer off the topic, but do you agree/disagree that "rural folk" would be better served with a .357 revolver over a .45 pistol?
__________________
"We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."
TruthTellers is offline  
Old October 6, 2020, 04:55 AM   #117
shurshot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2006
Posts: 1,402
Yes. Nothing wrong with the .45 acp though. I recall reading an Ayoob article in the late 70's ("Guns"),and he articulated numerous reasons why the 1911 .45 acp would be his choice if he was limited to only one semiautomatic pistol. Outdated article in today's world? Perhaps, as we have far more caliber and design options available. But the fact remains that the .45 is Still a sound choice, hence its steadfast popularity with certain elite US Military groups.

Last edited by shurshot; October 6, 2020 at 05:03 AM.
shurshot is offline  
Old October 6, 2020, 08:42 AM   #118
cslinger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 14, 2002
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,838
Quote:
Some reports suggest that only a 12ga did a really good job at stopping the Moros.
DING DING DING. WINNER!

The reality is ANY pistol round you manage by luck or skill to get to the CNS “off switch” will work fine. It’s just not easy, nor would I prefer having one if a hopped up jungle warrior was charging me with a machete and a grudge.

12 Gauge has historically, for a very long time, proven to be a close range fight stopper.

.45 is great. I love .45. is it “derwunderbullet”. No. but then again neither is 10mm or .357 Mag etc.

My general take is .45 offers a couple advantages.
-If you don’t have access to quality defensive ammo, I would rather have the bigger slower bullet. So in this regard I feel it’s a bit more versatile then a smaller caliber.
-The .45’s sound/blast signature is more pleasant then .40 or 9mm and certainly nicer then .357SIG/MAG or 10mm.

Those are what I see as my own personal advantages of .45 ACP.
__________________
"Is there anyway I can write my local gun store off on my taxes as dependents?"
cslinger is offline  
Old October 16, 2020, 11:53 PM   #119
Big Shrek
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2009
Location: NorthWest Florida
Posts: 1,346
The only thing 9mm is better at is WOUNDING instead of KILLING.
I've run across lots of folks shot by 9mm who've survived.
Worked a lotta shooting calls over the years as a firefighter...
Haven't met one .45/10mm shooting survivor yet.

Bigger the hole, the more blood comes out.
The bigger the bullet, the higher the chance of hitting something vital.
It really is that simple.
Also why I've got a couple pistols capable of .45-SUPER now...

Attached Images
File Type: jpg only-9mm.jpg (37.5 KB, 78 views)
__________________
Marlin Specialist
Calico Specialist
A gun should be a tool in the hands of a deadly weapon, not a deadly weapon in the hands of a tool.
Big Shrek is offline  
Old October 17, 2020, 10:58 AM   #120
tipoc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2004
Location: Redwood City, Ca.
Posts: 4,089
The 30-40 Krag didn't work all that well in the Philippines either.

tipoc
__________________
1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot.
4. Identify your target and know what is beyond it.
tipoc is offline  
Old October 17, 2020, 11:34 AM   #121
Bake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 11, 2012
Location: San Joaquin Valley, Calif.
Posts: 473
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
The .45ACP has been outperformed by the .45 Colt since 1873.

What's your point?



I don't hold "veteran's" opinions in any special regard, just because they are veteran's opinions. I'm a veteran. Both my kids are veterans (one went to Bagdad, the other never left the states...) My Dad just missed going to Korea. My Grandfather was both a WWI and WWII veteran.

Veterans are just like everyone else, some know what they are talking about, some don't. The only difference is veterans have done their duty in military service. I'm very glad (most) people respect that, again.
The one thing all Vets have in common, we are all waiting for jane fonda to die, so we can use her head stone for a field latine ! ! !
__________________
1. The pattern board is your friend, use the Dam thing!!!
2. The maximum range of a firearm and/or cartridge, is usually measured in miles, and means nothing.
2a. The effective range of a firearm and/or cartridge, is usually (the ability of the shooter) measured in yards, and means everything.
Bake is offline  
Old October 18, 2020, 12:04 PM   #122
Ruger45LC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 24, 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 698
I would say yes because you do have the option of 45 Super and 450 SMC (basically a small primer version of the 45 Super). Those even loaded mid range pack a pretty good punch for an autoloader.
Ruger45LC is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2020 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09082 seconds with 10 queries