Saw An Interesting .45-70 Bolt Rifle...

[JeepHammer]

I ran into a guy I haven't seen since the Marine Corps, retired and started working as oil field security in Alaska & other places.

His 'SHTF' rifle interested me since it had everything recent threads have discussed.

It was a Gibbs rifle in 45-70 with receiver forward picatinny rail & 'Scout' optic.
This allows his day scope, red dot or night/thermal vision to be mounted.

The rifle is all stainless as near as I can tell, looks like SMLE with full Enfield wood.
Apparently you don't really want exposed metal at -50*F or when your rifle gets thrown in with oil field tools, and the wood shows it.

He says the receiver & barrel chamber is heavier built than 'Normal' because the hunters use hot loads, and Gibbs built these rifles specifically for professionals.
I know it's heavier than any SMLE I've ever handled, but not stupid heavy.

Hand loading single pointed bullets it will reach out really well, with heavy hollows he can & has taken down polar & Alaskan grizzly bears, including kodiak!

.458 caliber bullets are common, and come in stupid heavy weights.
Where he gets pointed soft points is beyond me and I forgot to ask...
Just the plain Gibbs rifle is a seriously solid unit, a well built SMLE, but this thing took it to new levels!

Anyone considered a Gibbs for SHTF?
Common bullet sizes, shoots non-jacketed lead if needed, shoots a crap load of different powders, even black powder if all else fails.

[HiBC]

I don't know anything about the Gibbs rifle.Sounds like a tool.

A few decades back Siamese 98 Mausers were available.They had an angled mag box and worked well for 45-70.Plenty strong. A buddy built a few.

I would not mess up an original SMLE myself,but SARCO may still have some odds and ends for barreled receivers.
Dimensionally and pressure wise,the 405 Win ought to be a good fit in a SMLE.

[Jim Watson]

The receiver is surely a straight No 4.
All the added mass has to be in the barrel and attachments.
I'd sure want to wring one out before counting on it with big game.

[Scorch]

Yes, receivers are No 4, and they are not stainless, they are electroless nickel plated, possibly a stainless barrel. By biggest objection to the Gibbs rifles is that the rim of a 45-70 is the same size as the bolt body and they are hard to get to feed properly. As far as high-pressure loads, Gibbs did not recommend the "Ruger #1 only" types of loads, more like the 1886 loads. A Siamese Mauser is a better option, and they are still available if you look around.

[kozak6]

Be careful. We don't do SHTF here, so that might get your thread locked.

It makes a lot of sense for Alaska. However, extreme cold is murder on batteries, so I question his rationality for the scout setup. It's fine if he just likes a scout setup, but batteries don't work terribly well at -50.

Outside of Alaska, it's not terribly compelling. It's a lo-cap manually operated uncommon rifle in an uncommon caliber with a rainbow trajectory. It's probably good enough, but it wouldn't be my first choice.

[jmr40]

He would be better off with a SS/Synthetic CRF 30-06 loaded with heavier bullets and a good quality 1-4X scope on it. That load is MORE effective on big bear and the rifle/scope combo would be more versatile, rugged and reliable. One of the Ruger MK-II or Hawkeye's would be at the top of my list along with a Winchester 70.

With big bear protection being a priority then the same rifle in either 375 H&H or the new 375 Ruger.

[fourbore]

I have sen these rifles. The gun is a novelty. They are not much to look at or handle. Cock on closing which is different. It does not balance well. The sighting option are not very good. I spent about 30 minutes handing one in LGS. I am a big big 45/70 fan. I had to walk away from this.

A google will find these. Warning, they look better in the photos than in real life.

[eastbank]

I have a early navy arms Siamese 98 mauser converted to 45-70 that I picked up in a trade deal with a few rifles and kept it to play with. its a little heavy, but handles the same loads as my ruger # 3 and is very accurett with 350-400, gr bullets at 2000 fps(more if you can stand it). its a little to much for deer, but not for bear. to me it,s a fine 150 yard rifle.

[fourbore]

The Siamese Mauser 45/70's were different. If I see one of those at an LGS, I will likely take it home. Dont confuse these with the so-called Gibbs Enfield conversion. Praise for one does not necessarily translate as a plus for the other.

Another off topic option is the Ruger American in 450 Bush Master. I have one and its hoot to shoot and should kill all the usual local game. Local to me is not local to the OP.

[agtman]

I've seen several of the Gibbs models over the years. All were variations off the Lee Enfield platform.

One that caught my eye was still in the .303Brit chambering, but had been chopped down to like, 18" or 20", housed in a wood stock with shortened forend, and was coated in that silvery electroless nickel plating. It had the No4 receiver aperture sight and a post frt sight, and some sort of cone flash-hider. Looked like a "Tankerized" L.E. No.4.

Anybody else recall those?

On this one though, the owner had determined to "Scout scope" it by attaching what looked to be two Weaver bases out on the barrel forward of the action. He charged the 10-rd L.E. mag using stripper clips. When I first saw it at the range, he was getting the irons zeroed at 100yds, so neither rings nor a scope were yet attached. Man oh man, was that "Tanker" Enfield ever blasty! But for that conical FH, I'm sure you'd have seen a fireball even in summer sunlight. It was a very interesting looking little rifle - compact, not overly weighty, maneuverable, handy. The E.N. plating would no doubt impart corrosion-protection.

But I have to credit it with getting my attention focused on the adaptability (or not) of Cooper's Scout Rifle attributes both to other rifle "platforms" as well as to other calibers. In my case it was building them off the M1 Garand, but I've seen a couple of Mosin Tanker/Scout set ups, and the Mosin cartridge is surely suitable for use on critters that roam about in the extreme environs of AK.

He would be better off with a SS/Synthetic CRF 30-06 loaded with heavier bullets and a good quality 1-4X scope on it. That load is MORE effective on big bear and the rifle/scope combo would be more versatile, rugged and reliable. One of the Ruger MK-II or Hawkeye's would be at the top of my list along with a Winchester 70.

I agree, especially on the versatility of load choices the .30-06 cartridge provides... except that my go-to "bear gun" is a 16" Mini-G M1 'Hunter,' with a 4x Weaver scout scope in low-mount rings on a Ultimak forward rail, and is zeroed at 100-yds with 220gn '06 loads.

With big bear protection being a priority then the same rifle in either 375 H&H or the new 375 Ruger.

Both of those cartridges are good choices.

[kraigwy]

Strange things are found in the land of the Midnight Sun.

G.O. Young, in his book, " Alaskan Yukon Trophies Won and Lost"' talks of using the 30-40 Krag as a back up gun for dangerous game.

I was flying into Savoonga on St Lawrence Island when we had to do a fly over because of a Polar bear on the run way. It was dispatched by a villager using a 220 Swift.

I've seen some weird setups in the gun department in my 22 years living in Alaska.

Native Alaskans use to depend on the 30-06 and their primary round, then (in my day as A XO and then CO of an Alask Native NG Company) they used the 223/5.56. Why, simple, they could get ammo from the Guard. As the Military & Guard tightened up their ammo policy they drifted to the cheap imports, mainly the Mosin and its 7.62X59R.

Then there are gun nuts like me who had to have every sort of gun possible (I retired and since moved to Wyoming, but that bit hasnt changed).

I had (and still have) a 416 Rigby (first rifle I ever built on my own) 458 Win. 375 H&H, and others. My Alaska hunting rifle was a 7 Rem Mag.

But most Alaskans lean toward conventional and reasonable firearms for the Bush. Thats one of the reasons Alaska chose the pre-64 Model 70 in 30-06 as their State Rifle.

Every animal that crawed the earth has been killed by the '06, 30-40 Krag, 303 British and 7 Mauser.

But hey you never can tell when the dinasoars will come back so I'll keep my heavy rifles.

[Wyosmith]

I have had a few 45-70 bolt actions come through my shop. The ones made on Siamese Mausers seemed to be fine other than a few that were built wrong and needed help.

To my way of thinking, I fail to see the point. I can build a 458 Win Mag much easier on a standard length Mauser than I can build a 45-70 on a far more expensive and rare Mauser.
Rumor has it that the 45-70 can be a bit of a problem in the #4 Enfield SMLE too. I have no experience with them, so I am only passing on what I have herd.

A 458 can easily and accurately be loaded down to the same levels of the 45-70 if you don't want all the power of the "elephant loads" and overall the 458 just works so much easier then the 45-70 in a bolt action. The 458 is the same length as the 45-90 Sharps, so even black powder loads are easy to make. You can think of it as a 45-90 with a belted head instead of a rimmed head.
Bullets from 450 to 500 grains work well at top speeds and for "North American Loads" we can use 300 to 400 grain bullets in the 1400-1800 FPS range, or gas-checked cast bullets from 1100 FPS all the way up to 1900 FPS in weights going from 340 to 600 grains.

And if you are not building the rifle yourself, it's safe to say you will be paying for the gunsmithing. That means the 458 can be less expensive to build by quite a number of man-hours.

[kraigwy]

I agree with Wyosmith on the 458. Perfect canidate for cast bullets.

I had a friend and guard member, a Sr. Boat Capt. at Gambell. He tried to give me a nice special Model 70 in 458. It was given to him by some hunters he had taken walrus hunting.

He wanted to give me the rifle because he couldnt find ammo on St Lawrence Island, and it was too expensive to order ammo from Anchorage.

The rifle was too nice, no way I could take it. Many years ago in the stretching telegraph lines across the Pacific, they laid a lead cable across the island. Abandoned not.

I told him to go cut chunks of the lead cable and I'd fix him up the next time I was in Gambell. I bought a set of dies, a bullet mold and other accessaries. Hit all the gun shops getting them to donate 458 brass. Also too a brick of primers and powder and set him up casting and loading for his 458. Made his bullet lube from bear tallow.

It turned out to be his main whale and walrus rifle. Shooting the cast bullets at hot 45-70 velocities. Plus using cast bullets, not having to buy brass (straight wall brass take a lot of loadings), it was ecconomical to shoot.

Personally I like my 45-70 loaded to orginal BP loadings out of my Trapdoor, a pleasure to shoot. I do shoot the same cast bullets in my 458. I'm to old and enjoy shooting to much to get beat up by my rifles.

[Mike Irwin]

"I can build a 458 Win Mag much easier on a standard length Mauser than I can build a 45-70 on a far more expensive and rare Mauser."

At the time most of the Siamese Mauser conversions to .45-70 were being done, a good quality Siamese Mauser rifle would cost you about $12.

But, you couldn't shoot it because ammunition wasn't being imported because there wasn't any to import.

Remember, too, that not all Siamese Mausers are actually... Mausers.

Siam ordered a significant number of rifles from Japan and based on the Mauser derived Arisaka action.

I've seen those being peddled at a gunshow or two as a "variation" on the Siamese Mauser.

Sigh.

[Jim Watson]

A friend tried to make a .458 Winchester Winchester into a ".45x2 1/2" Express" with cast bullets. Accuracy was not fine, we thought because of the long tapered throat. I guess you guys solved the puzzle.

I saw one of those bolt action Rugers in .450 Bushmaster. It was doing Ok, but bullets are on the light side and I don't know if it would accommodate BPCR weights.

I'll take the .45-70 in lever action or single shot.
Or a double express like Ken Waters'. Sigh.

[fourbore]

"I can build a 458 Win Mag much easier on a standard length Mauser than I can build a 45-70 on a far more expensive and rare Mauser."

At the time most of the Siamese Mauser conversions to .45-70 were being done, a good quality Siamese Mauser rifle would cost you about $12.

This bears repeating. Times have changed. At the time, and as far as I am concerned now as well, the Siamese Mauser was a nearly useless oddball. Then who would think we would be posting about Jap chrysanthemums. Times have change, me, not so much.

[bamaranger]

As near as I can tell, Gibbs is still in business, but my take is they are only making 03'A4 sniper rifle repros at present. I sure could be wrong about that. One can find their website and look for themselves.

The site lists past creations, including their "Sport Speciality" rifles. Two are listed in .45-70, the Summit, and the Frontier. The 'Summit is on a Mk4, the Frontier on a MkIII, I don't see any difference past that in the listing. A .308 version shows nickel plating. All rifles are about Jungle Carbine size. All are about half stocked......no full length stock. Rifles date from about 2000.

[agtman]

* * * The 'Summit is on a Mk4, the Frontier on a MkIII, I don't see any difference past that in the listing. A .308 version shows nickel plating. All rifles are about Jungle Carbine size. All are about half stocked......no full length stock.

Yeah, the guy I referenced seeing at the range had the 'Mk4' Summit with the receiver peep sight, but it was definitely a .303Brit. "Jungle Carbine size" is what it was too, and nickel plated.

Rifles date from about 2000.

That time-frame sounds about right.

[Nanuk]

Why not a SS Marlin 1895 in 45-70 or 458?

[JeepHammer]

Quote from Alaskan Forestry Service archive, dated Friday, 11 June 1993,
"The first shipment of AFS 45-70 rifles from Gibbs Rifle has arrived and will be issued to park personnel as training is completed."

This is the only reference I've found so far...

It wasn't the usual (unimpressive) plated receiver I'm used to seeing on Gibbs Rifles, I work with stainless regularly and I'm 99% certain it was a stainless receiver.

As for SHTF, not being one of the regulars, I'd call a Kodiak or Polar bear on top of me a SHTF situation!
I can guarantee it would be a crap in the pants situation for me!
No man on the planet scares me, but 1,500 pounds of muscle, teeth & claws is entirely a different story.

[T. O'Heir]

"...Gibbs rifle in 45-70..." Made until 2004. Is a bubba'd No. 4 or No. 1 Lee-Enfield. A No. 4 Rifle is not an SMLE. As I recall, most if not all of the receivers Gibbs butchered were from DP'd rifles. They called their Quest Extreme Carbine an updated No. 5 Rifle. Nonsense. No 5 Rifles were modified No. 4 Rifles, not No. 1's.
If there's a bear on top of you, it's too late.
"...I'm 99% certain..." Nope. Electroless nickel plate on a No. 1 receiver
"...would cost you about $12..." $12 was more money in those days.

[Mike Irwin]

Adjusting for inflation, $12 in 1955, when these rifles were available, is the equivalent to about $120 today.

Today an unaltered Siamese Mauser can cost you $500, $1,000, or more.

[RC20]

But most Alaskans lean toward conventional and reasonable firearms for the Bush. Thats one of the reasons Alaska chose the pre-64 Model 70 in 30-06 as their State Rifle.

I hate to bust a bubble, that was done by a legislature who slipped it into a bill. No one was asked he just did it.

If there is any rifle to Alaska that is iconic, it would be the 1903.

Back in the day before the Big Hats showed up, 30-06 was the rifle of choice as it was the rifle and cartridges available. I own one from my Step Dads father that took 6 grizzlies. No idea of how many moose, Elk (Idaho) and deer.

Now the rage goes back and forth as to what is the right gun for the dangerous Brown/Grizzly bear. Louis and Clark shot them with muskets. I would call that sub optimal and they would have agreed.

[RC20]

As for SHTF, not being one of the regulars, I'd call a Kodiak or Polar bear on top of me a SHTF situation!
I can guarantee it would be a crap in the pants situation for me!
No man on the planet scares me, but 1,500 pounds of muscle, teeth & claws is entirely a different story.

That would be SHYP (nasty stuff and a spontaneous expelling of said substance while still dressed)

On the other hand, I left them alone and they left me alone. Worked for 60 some odd years.

Polar bears are more like black bears, they are scroungers, not that hard to kill.

Brown bear is easy enough if its not ticked off. I know of two that were taken down by 9mm pistols. One by a Ruskie 5.45.

[Nunya53]

I have a Gibbs Enfield 45/70 I inherited from my Dad. I haven't shot it in several years, but as I remember it was problematic feeding the rounds. Maybe with a little work I could improve it. As I remember, I certainly wouldn't want to put my life on the line with it.

Jerry