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Old April 5, 2018, 01:45 PM   #26
carguychris
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Visa waivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
ATF (see Q5 and Q6) has decided that lawfully entering the United States as a non-immigrant when permitted without a visa is not the same as entering with a non-immigrant visa, and therefore such a non-resident alien in not subject to the 18 USC 922(g)(5) prohibition. It looks like this ATF interpretation was made around 2012.
I've discussed visa waivers in a similar thread before.

Although it's true that a non-immigrant who qualifies for a visa waiver is allowed to possess firearms under federal law, the issue at street level is that a visa waiver, by definition, leaves no paper trail. This makes it very difficult for an FFL or an ordinary non-licensee to differentiate between a foreigner lawfully in the U.S. under a visa waiver program, and one in the country illegally.

Additionally, it's my understanding that visa waiver eligibility may be revoked suddenly and without warning if it's discovered that the foreigner has been convicted of certain crimes in their home country or a third country, and not all of these crimes are necessarily felonies under U.S. law (e.g. I've read that repeat DUI's qualify in some cases). IOW someone from a generally waiver-friendly country such as Canada is NOT automatically A-OK, even if they lawfully entered under a waiver.

A valid hunting license provides affirmative proof that a foreigner may legally possess firearms. Presumably for this reason, I've observed that multiple local FFLs demand to see one, and are unwilling to go down the visa waiver rabbit trail. This may not be true of the Vegas machine-gun ranges, but that's their decision.

Although I'm not an attorney, I have enough personal knowledge and experience with the pitfalls of immigration law to sympathize with an FFL's desire to play it safe.
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Old April 6, 2018, 05:45 PM   #27
johnwilliamson062
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Quote:
A valid hunting license provides affirmative proof that a foreigner may legally possess firearms.
It provides proof of sporting purpose, but it does not provide affirmative proof they may legally posses a firearm. A felon may receive a hunting license in my state(bow hunting).

<snip>

Last edited by Frank Ettin; April 6, 2018 at 05:55 PM. Reason: delete off topic comment
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Old April 6, 2018, 06:08 PM   #28
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnwilliamson062
Quote:
A valid hunting license provides affirmative proof that a foreigner may legally possess firearms.
It provides proof of sporting purpose, but it does not provide affirmative proof they may legally posses a firearm. A felon may receive a hunting license in my state(bow hunting).....
In the context of the subject matter of this thread you're not entirely correct. One exception to the prohibition of 18 USC 922(g)(5)(B) is (18 USC 922(y)(2), emphasis added):
Quote:
...(2) Exceptions.—Subsections (d)(5)(B), (g)(5)(B), and (s)(3)(B)(v)(II) do not apply to any alien who has been lawfully admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa, if that alien is—
(A) admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or sporting purposes or is in possession of a hunting license or permit lawfully issued in the United States;
...
If there is a reason the person can not lawfully possess a firearm or ammunition other than 18 USC 922(g)(5)(B), usch reason would be independent of his being a foreigner (except if he were in this country illegally).
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Old June 1, 2018, 10:44 PM   #29
Marco B
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Hands on experience

Hello all.

First of all, this shouldn't been taken as an advocate advice or something similar.
I'm not a lawyer and here in the US on a non immigrant E2 Visa since 2014.
My Visa is valid for 5 years.

I'm planning on staying here and spend the rest of my life here and try to become an US Citizen, which is another story.

In this case I put in for the Green card lottery, and will probably apply for citizenship when I have my second Visa approved (long shot ) - This might play into it as well

I purchased my first pistol here under the exception for have a hunting license (I don't hunt, the only use of my guns are for annoying steel and paper )

Being in the system based on this exemption I applied for a CCDW, which got approved as well. (BTW my KY permit is recognized in 38 states)

Based on the local law, by using the exemption to use my CCDW for verification, I'm able to purchase a firearm at any FFL in the state I live in.

Just my 2 cents. It may apply in my case but won't work for others.
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Old June 3, 2018, 09:34 PM   #30
doofus47
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What about that rent-a-range in Las Vegas that is famous for renting full-auto weapons to tourists? Can't remember the name. Do they sell TP-grade-hunting licenses?

interesting.
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Old June 5, 2018, 08:51 AM   #31
carguychris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doofus47
What about that rent-a-range in Las Vegas that is famous for renting full-auto weapons to tourists? Can't remember the name. Do they sell TP-grade-hunting licenses?
My non-attorney understanding is that they are relying on the theory that a rental under direct supervision of range personnel does not constitute a transfer or possession under the GCA.

This theory seems questionable to me, but it's apparent that the ATF is not actively trying to prosecute violators, so it remains a legal grey area.

My hunch is that the Vegas ranges have a high-powered legal team on speed-dial and are willing to take the risk because it underpins their lucrative business model.
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Old June 5, 2018, 11:09 AM   #32
FITASC
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Another scenario - I have friends from England who also own a home here in the US and come twice a year for 3 months at a time. I BELIEVE they have a Visa to enter and they bring a few shotguns with them each time. If what I am understanding from the above posts, are they legally allowed to buy ammunition for those shotguns, or is it a case of don't ask don't tell?
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Old June 5, 2018, 01:09 PM   #33
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FITASC
Another scenario - I have friends from England who also own a home here in the US and come twice a year for 3 months at a time. I BELIEVE they have a Visa to enter and they bring a few shotguns with them each time. If what I am understanding from the above posts, are they legally allowed to buy ammunition for those shotguns,....
If they are here on a nonimmigrant visa or don't have hunting licenses or don't fall within one of the other exceptions set out in 18 USC 922(y), they violate federal law by possessing firearms in the United States or possessing ammunition. The penalty is up to ten years in federal prison.

If they are present in the United States legally without a visa under the terms of the Visa Waiver Program (see post 25), according to the ATF they may possess guns and/or ammunition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FITASC
...is it a case of don't ask don't tell?
What's this "don't ask don't tell" garbage? That is not a defense to a federal crime. That's about getting away with committing a crime. Sometimes people do get away with committing a crime. But the prisons are full of people who did not. See post 14.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carguychris
Quote:
Originally Posted by doofus47
What about that rent-a-range in Las Vegas that is famous for renting full-auto weapons to tourists? Can't remember the name. Do they sell TP-grade-hunting licenses?
My non-attorney understanding is that they are relying on the theory that a rental under direct supervision of range personnel does not constitute a transfer or possession under the GCA.....
Nope, that won't work. It would be inconsistent with the understanding of "possession" generally applicable under the law and regularly applied in the successful prosecution of 18 USC 922(g) (prohibited person in possession of a gun) charges. See for example U.S. v. Booth, 111 F.3d 1 (C.A.1 (Mass.), 1997, at 1):
Quote:
...The law recognizes two kinds of possession, actual possession and constructive possession.... Even when a person does not actually possess an object, he may be in constructive possession of it. Constructive possession exists when a person knowingly has the power and the intention at a given time of exercising dominion and control over an object or over the area in which the object is located. The law recognizes no distinction between actual and constructive possession, either form of possession is sufficient. Possession of an object may be established by either direct evidence or by circumstantial evidence. It is not necessary to prove ownership of the object,...
Possession means:
Quote:
1 a : the act of having or taking into control...
And as to the applicability of the common meaning of "possession" see Perrin v. United States, 444 U.S. 37 (United States Supreme Court, 1979), at 42:
Quote:
...A fundamental canon of statutory construction is that, unless otherwise defined, words will be interpreted as taking their ordinary, contemporary, common meaning...
So a person shooting your gun at the range has dominion and control of the gun, and therefore possession of the gun, even if you're supervising.

The better explanation is prosecutorial discretion. Apparently the Department of Justice doesn't see any reason to bother with those ranges allowing foreign tourists to shoot. But that didn't stop the U. S. Attorney in California from prosecuting some Saudi Arabians who rented guns at a range in San Diego. See posts 9 and 20.

The situation is somewhat similar to federal policy on prosecuting federal marijuana offenses in State which have legalized medical and/or recreational use. In general the Department of Justice doesn't seem bother garden variety sale/use in conformity with state law. That doesn't mean that a marijuana seller or user (or a marijuana user in possession of a gun) won't be prosecuted if the local U. S. Attorney decides circumstances warrant prosecution or prosecution would further federal interests.

Here's current federal policy on prosecution of marijuana offenses.
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Old June 5, 2018, 01:12 PM   #34
carguychris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FITASC
I have friends from England who also own a home here in the US and come twice a year for 3 months at a time. I BELIEVE they have a Visa to enter and they bring a few shotguns with them each time. If what I am understanding from the above posts, are they legally allowed to buy ammunition for those shotguns, or is it a case of don't ask don't tell?
If they are able to clear U.S. Customs with their shotguns, it's probably safe to assume that they either possess U.S. hunting licenses, or are entering under a visa waiver.

Despite our country's freewheeling reputation regarding firearms, CBP does NOT treat the importation of firearms casually.
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Old June 21, 2018, 11:51 AM   #35
Frank Ettin
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The ground has been covered.
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