Suicide with three bullets -- automatic mode

totallyclueless · June 30, 2018, 03:47 PM

Hi guys,
In another country, a person of some importance that may have known a lot of stuff, was found dead inside his car. An MP5 next to him with 3 casings. One shot in the head and two hit the car windows. Cops--in theory they can be told what to say--said that his MP5 was on automatic mode and ruled it a suicide.

The question is: is it possible? I guess they are saying that he pulled the trigger once and the bullets came after even after the first bullet killed him.

What are your thoughts?

HiBC · June 30, 2018, 04:09 PM

It seems quite believable to me.An MP-5 is a submachine gun,and by definition of auto fire will shoot as long as there is pressure on the trigger.(and it has ammo) Its believable to me it could take 3,or more,rounds worth of time for the neural signals to the trigger finger to go to zero and the muscle to relax.

Without speculating too much, I don't think many murderers would leave a desirable MP-5 behind.Why use a heavily regulated,paper trail sort of firearm?
If this were an assasination,why two out of three round miss? For one bullet,any handgun would work.

I would share your suspicions if he shot him self in the head three times with a 9 mm "take your pick" generic semi-auto handgun.

MTT TL · June 30, 2018, 04:27 PM

An MP5 is going to rattle around a bit. Three rounds and his finger comes off the trigger one way or another is a possibility. It could also be someone shot him and wanted to make it look like a suicide.

Of course there are much better ways of checking with solid forensic techniques that an experienced investigator would know about could easily confirm or deny such a hypothesis.

totallyclueless · June 30, 2018, 04:27 PM

>> It seems quite believable to me.An MP-5 is a submachine gun,and by definition of auto fire will shoot as long as there is pressure on the trigger.(and it has ammo) Its believable to me it could take 3,or more,rounds worth of time for the neural signals to the trigger finger to go to zero and the muscle to relax.

Thanks, that was my real question. The timing...milliseconds.

>>Without speculating too much, I don't think many murderers would leave a desirable MP-5 behind.Why use a heavily regulated,paper trail sort of firearm?

That was his service gun, he was the driver for the Interior Minister, the equivalent of Jeff Sessions. The previous Interior Minister is under investigation for international drug dealing, gave free pass to his own group while fighting others and that group is on tape talking about him and bribes. That's why it's suspicious and drivers usually know a lot. Personally I think he just killed himself, people have all kinds of issues, but if someone wanted him dead, he would be.

>>If this were an assasination,why two out of three round miss? For one bullet,any handgun would work.

That can be explained: to make it look like a suicide, avoid the scrutiny a contract killing would attract. Cops can do a check for powder and all, but then, their boss can order them to say whatever.

Mike38 · June 30, 2018, 04:55 PM

If he shot himself in the head, couldn't there be "short circuiting" of sorts in the brain, and causing the muscles in the hand / fingers to remain tight, or even get tighter, thus allowing multiple shots? I don't know. Any Neurosurgeons here?

LineStretcher · June 30, 2018, 07:30 PM

Isnt the MP-5 selectable? Single shot, 3 round burst, full auto..

egor20 · June 30, 2018, 07:53 PM

The MP-5 (SD) Navy version they let us shoot in Ships Self Defence Force school back in the early 80s had that. Safe, Single, 3 shot, Full. We were never allowed to shoot Full because it would screw up the suppressor (which apparently they had to send back to HK under contract for repair/replacement).

**44 AMP** · June 30, 2018, 09:14 PM

MP5 on full auto?? Quite possible.

On 3 round burst setting?? Inescapable!

on full auto, it could fire twice more after the first bullet killed him, cyclic rate of fire and the actual amount of time that passed before trigger pressure released, yes, quite possible.

Set in 3 shot burst mode, then pulling the trigger once will fire 3 shots, whether the trigger is immediately released or if it held down.

Some one in the police will know this, though the person who talks to the press might not.

**JohnKSa** · June 30, 2018, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Set in 3 shot burst mode, then pulling the trigger once will fire 3 shots, whether the trigger is immediately released or if it held down.

Is that really how it works? I always thought that the gun would stop firing if the trigger was released, even if 3 shots hadn't yet been fired.

In fact, I remember reading somewhere about one gun (not an MP5) where the rachet mechanism that was used for the 3 shot burst didn't reset when the trigger was released and so if one could get off the trigger fast enough, the next time the trigger was pulled, only the remaining shot(s) that hadn't been fired from the first burst would fire.

I freely admit I don't know the details of how the MP5 burst mechanism works. Maybe someone can chime in and provide more information...

**44 AMP** · July 1, 2018, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Is that really how it works? I always thought that the gun would stop firing if the trigger was released, even if 3 shots hadn't yet been fired.

OK, upon reflection in the morning, I realized that what I wrote about burst fire was as much assumption as fact. I'm not very expert about the MP-5. We need an experienced burst fire user (or HK factory person) to be sure about IF you can release the trigger fast enough in burst mode to get less than 3 shots. I do know that if the trigger is pulled, and held, in burst mode the gun will stop after the burst, and the trigger must be released and pulled again for another burst.

I do know a little bit of the hearsay about the "ratchet" issues with the early burst mechanism used in the M16 (a2??). From what I heard, the ratchet counter mechanism didn't reset to 0 when the trigger was released (or the selector moved off burst), so it would give a 1, 2, or 3 shot burst depending on where the counter had last stopped.

I heard they fixed this, but don't know personally.

The point here is that in the described situation (head shot suicide with MP 5) that it is possible the gun could have fired 3 shots before stopping, despite the fact that the 1st shot killed the guy. Mechanically it's possible, and we have no way of knowing, just how long the "dead" finger held the trigger in firing position.

Most people will assume, head shot, instant death, muscles instantly relax. But the real world sometimes does things a little differently. Even with a brain shot, causing instant death, muscles can twitch, even clamp, possibly for several seconds before fully relaxing in death. Every case seems to be an individual, and without actually being there and seeing what happened in the seconds afterwards, we simply cannot know with certainty.

jmr40 · July 1, 2018, 11:45 AM

Firing 2 or more shots happens even with revolvers, bolt action rifles, and pump shotguns during suicide attempts more often than people realize. People flinch and miss or hold the muzzle in a non critical area and survive the 1st shot. Sometimes they survive altogether. I'd not doubt it was a suicide even if it were a semi-auto.

I volunteer with a SAR team and a large portion of the missing people we look far are people who walk into the woods to commit suicide. We had a 68 year old lady walk into the woods with a handgun 6 years ago on a cold rainy night. She backed out, but couldn't find her way out of the woods. Family reported her missing at 6AM, we found her at 10AM almost dead from hypothermia. Six months later she stepped in front of a train. That worked.

Last month we recovered the body of a 51 year old man. At this point the cause of death is unknown, but it appears a drug overdose. He tried to commit suicide 3 years ago with a 7.62X39 rifle shot to the abdomen, but survived.

We found remains of another man who used a revolver. He had loaded 2 chambers, and both had been fired. There wasn't enough left of him to really determine if both shots hit. We found his gun, some clothes, a note in a plastic bag in his pants, and a few bones.

bn12gg · July 1, 2018, 12:49 PM

First bullet caused an upper motor neuron lesion. -- spastic contralateral response to upper extremity/arm/finger yielding multiple trigger pulls. The respondents probably had to pry the gun from the hand. No surprise re multiple shots fired.

.02. David.

Gary L. Griffiths · July 1, 2018, 03:32 PM

It is also a fairly common occurrence for firearms suicides to "try" the gun for one, two, or even several shots to make sure it works. I investigated a suicide at Ft. Lewis back in the day, where the subject fired four shots from a .30-30 Win Model 94 before placing the muzzle in his mouth and pulling the trigger.

**44 AMP** · July 1, 2018, 06:01 PM

A VERY good point!!! We (going from the OP's information) all assumed it was as stated, the first shot was the lethal hit. But what if it wasn't, what if as you say, two shots were fired THEN the 3rd shot is the lethal hit?

Depending on exact circumstances, I can see where that cannot be determined with 100% certainty. Quite the puzzle, potentially.

TXAZ · July 1, 2018, 06:27 PM

If you want to analyze the full auto option vs. the 3 shot burst, the cyclical rate of fire of (most) MP5's is 600-900 rounds per minute, or 10-15 rounds per second.
That's 67 to 100 mSeconds per round. So IF you pull the trigger hard, how long does it take for your muscles to relax and release the trigger?
for 3 rounds, that's 200 mSeconds to 300 mSeconds (nominal).
My guess is most people can't easily get on and off of a trigger in 0.2 to 0.3 seconds. As such, it seems pretty plausible to me.

For instance if it's 100mSeconds per bullet, if the initial bullet is released at T=0, and the second bullet is released in 100 mSeconds, then the third bullet is released at 200 mSeconds, so it's 200mSeconds required 'on trigger' time to get 3 rounds out. If it's 67mSeconds per round, then you only need to be on the trigger for 134mSeconds, about 1/7 of a second. With muscle control signals moving about 400 feet per second, that's about 2.5 mSeconds, not really significant to include in this analysis.

So absolutely with a full auto, a person could pull the trigger and with a 'first shot kill' and finger not get off the trigger for 1/7 of a second.

stephen426 · July 3, 2018, 11:54 AM

I've fired an MP5 in single shot, 3 round burst, and full auto. I am not certain whether or not the 3 round burst would fire all 3 rounds if the trigger was released, but you would have to be off the trigger pretty darn quick. Even with short bursts, I believe I would fire 3-5 rounds, though I can't confirm. With a cyclic rate of over 600 rounds per minute, you are getting at least 10 rounds a second. Very plausible that the gun was in either full auto and the person who committed suicide fired 3 rounds before releasing the trigger, or the gun was in burst mode and the first round killed him.

June 30, 2018, 03:47 PM	#1
totallyclueless Junior Member Join Date: June 30, 2018 Posts: 2	Suicide with three bullets -- automatic mode Hi guys, In another country, a person of some importance that may have known a lot of stuff, was found dead inside his car. An MP5 next to him with 3 casings. One shot in the head and two hit the car windows. Cops--in theory they can be told what to say--said that his MP5 was on automatic mode and ruled it a suicide. The question is: is it possible? I guess they are saying that he pulled the trigger once and the bullets came after even after the first bullet killed him. What are your thoughts?

June 30, 2018, 04:09 PM	#2
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	It seems quite believable to me.An MP-5 is a submachine gun,and by definition of auto fire will shoot as long as there is pressure on the trigger.(and it has ammo) Its believable to me it could take 3,or more,rounds worth of time for the neural signals to the trigger finger to go to zero and the muscle to relax. Without speculating too much, I don't think many murderers would leave a desirable MP-5 behind.Why use a heavily regulated,paper trail sort of firearm? If this were an assasination,why two out of three round miss? For one bullet,any handgun would work. I would share your suspicions if he shot him self in the head three times with a 9 mm "take your pick" generic semi-auto handgun. Last edited by HiBC; June 30, 2018 at 04:19 PM.

June 30, 2018, 04:27 PM	#3
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	An MP5 is going to rattle around a bit. Three rounds and his finger comes off the trigger one way or another is a possibility. It could also be someone shot him and wanted to make it look like a suicide. Of course there are much better ways of checking with solid forensic techniques that an experienced investigator would know about could easily confirm or deny such a hypothesis. __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.

June 30, 2018, 07:53 PM	#7
egor20 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2010 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 1,824	The MP-5 (SD) Navy version they let us shoot in Ships Self Defence Force school back in the early 80s had that. Safe, Single, 3 shot, Full. We were never allowed to shoot Full because it would screw up the suppressor (which apparently they had to send back to HK under contract for repair/replacement). __________________ Chief stall mucker and grain chef Country don't mean dumb. Steven King. The Stand

June 30, 2018, 09:14 PM	#8
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	MP5 on full auto?? Quite possible. On 3 round burst setting?? Inescapable! on full auto, it could fire twice more after the first bullet killed him, cyclic rate of fire and the actual amount of time that passed before trigger pressure released, yes, quite possible. Set in 3 shot burst mode, then pulling the trigger once will fire 3 shots, whether the trigger is immediately released or if it held down. Some one in the police will know this, though the person who talks to the press might not. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

June 30, 2018, 04:55 PM	#5
Mike38 Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2009 Location: North Central Illinois Posts: 2,710	If he shot himself in the head, couldn't there be "short circuiting" of sorts in the brain, and causing the muscles in the hand / fingers to remain tight, or even get tighter, thus allowing multiple shots? I don't know. Any Neurosurgeons here?

June 30, 2018, 07:30 PM	#6
LineStretcher Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2018 Posts: 619	Isnt the MP-5 selectable? Single shot, 3 round burst, full auto..

July 1, 2018, 11:45 AM	#11
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	Firing 2 or more shots happens even with revolvers, bolt action rifles, and pump shotguns during suicide attempts more often than people realize. People flinch and miss or hold the muzzle in a non critical area and survive the 1st shot. Sometimes they survive altogether. I'd not doubt it was a suicide even if it were a semi-auto. I volunteer with a SAR team and a large portion of the missing people we look far are people who walk into the woods to commit suicide. We had a 68 year old lady walk into the woods with a handgun 6 years ago on a cold rainy night. She backed out, but couldn't find her way out of the woods. Family reported her missing at 6AM, we found her at 10AM almost dead from hypothermia. Six months later she stepped in front of a train. That worked. Last month we recovered the body of a 51 year old man. At this point the cause of death is unknown, but it appears a drug overdose. He tried to commit suicide 3 years ago with a 7.62X39 rifle shot to the abdomen, but survived. We found remains of another man who used a revolver. He had loaded 2 chambers, and both had been fired. There wasn't enough left of him to really determine if both shots hit. We found his gun, some clothes, a note in a plastic bag in his pants, and a few bones. __________________ "If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill

July 1, 2018, 12:49 PM	#12
bn12gg Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2011 Location: Winter Park, Florida Posts: 470	First bullet caused an upper motor neuron lesion. -- spastic contralateral response to upper extremity/arm/finger yielding multiple trigger pulls. The respondents probably had to pry the gun from the hand. No surprise re multiple shots fired. .02. David.

July 1, 2018, 03:32 PM	#13
Gary L. Griffiths Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: AZ, WA Posts: 1,466	It is also a fairly common occurrence for firearms suicides to "try" the gun for one, two, or even several shots to make sure it works. I investigated a suicide at Ft. Lewis back in the day, where the subject fired four shots from a .30-30 Win Model 94 before placing the muzzle in his mouth and pulling the trigger. __________________ Violence is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and valorous feeling which believes that nothing is worth violence is much worse. Those who have nothing for which they are willing to fight; nothing they care about more than their own craven apathy; are miserable creatures who have no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the valor of those better than themselves. Gary L. Griffiths (Paraphrasing John Stuart Mill)

July 1, 2018, 06:01 PM	#14
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	A VERY good point!!! We (going from the OP's information) all assumed it was as stated, the first shot was the lethal hit. But what if it wasn't, what if as you say, two shots were fired THEN the 3rd shot is the lethal hit? Depending on exact circumstances, I can see where that cannot be determined with 100% certainty. Quite the puzzle, potentially. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

July 1, 2018, 06:27 PM	#15
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	If you want to analyze the full auto option vs. the 3 shot burst, the cyclical rate of fire of (most) MP5's is 600-900 rounds per minute, or 10-15 rounds per second. That's 67 to 100 mSeconds per round. So IF you pull the trigger hard, how long does it take for your muscles to relax and release the trigger? for 3 rounds, that's 200 mSeconds to 300 mSeconds (nominal). My guess is most people can't easily get on and off of a trigger in 0.2 to 0.3 seconds. As such, it seems pretty plausible to me. For instance if it's 100mSeconds per bullet, if the initial bullet is released at T=0, and the second bullet is released in 100 mSeconds, then the third bullet is released at 200 mSeconds, so it's 200mSeconds required 'on trigger' time to get 3 rounds out. If it's 67mSeconds per round, then you only need to be on the trigger for 134mSeconds, about 1/7 of a second. With muscle control signals moving about 400 feet per second, that's about 2.5 mSeconds, not really significant to include in this analysis. So absolutely with a full auto, a person could pull the trigger and with a 'first shot kill' and finger not get off the trigger for 1/7 of a second. __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

July 3, 2018, 11:54 AM	#16
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	I've fired an MP5 in single shot, 3 round burst, and full auto. I am not certain whether or not the 3 round burst would fire all 3 rounds if the trigger was released, but you would have to be off the trigger pretty darn quick. Even with short bursts, I believe I would fire 3-5 rounds, though I can't confirm. With a cyclic rate of over 600 rounds per minute, you are getting at least 10 rounds a second. Very plausible that the gun was in either full auto and the person who committed suicide fired 3 rounds before releasing the trigger, or the gun was in burst mode and the first round killed him. __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!