My Quest for Better Marksmanship

[emcon5]

I started out with that same kit and though ultimately have swapped out/upgraded a number of pieces

Funny, I started out with a cheaper Lee Single stage kit, and eventually upgraded to essentially the equipment in the RCBS Kit, just I did it piece by piece, and ended up spending quite a bit more....

[Buzzcook]

Quality hearing protection helps with flinching. With medium or lower power rifles more people flinch in anticipation of the noise rather than recoil.

[Captains1911]

I recommend attending an Appleseed shoot, you will be amazed at what you learn.

[dangthathurt]

I my experience trying to learn long range shooting is the only good piece of gear you need at first is a good scope and mounts. Save your pennies and buy the best scope you can afford. The rule of thumb is your scope should be at least the price of your gun. So if you are eventually going to upgrade...

Secondly, I found you can research shooting for hours and days but the best use of your time is on the range. Practice, practice, practice!

Thirdly, the best money I've spent is Magpul's DVD set "the Art of the Rifle." It has a ton of information from the fundamentals of pulling the trigger, use of ballistic calculators, reading the wind, to what kind of gear to really need.
It's available on Amazon. Highly recommended!

Have fun! It's a hobby with a lot of depth.

[natman]

What I learned:
* I need to improve flinching

If you're flinching from a 223 I've got to ask about your hearing protection because it shouldn't be from recoil.

* I need to remember to use breathing control

Yep. Practice it till it becomes habit.

* Moving closer to the eye piece makes the target seem a lot bigger

Moving your eye to the right position makes it easier to see the target. There is a point of diminishing returns in getting closer. This will be painfully reinforced if you're shooting a rifle that actually kicks.

* I am ready to move up to 200yd.

No, not really. I'm going to try to say this as nicely as possible, but if you are shooting 4-5 inch groups from a rest at 100 yards there's some fundamental work to be done before you make things more challenging.

I'd recommend that you get a good 22 bolt action and practice shooting at 25 yards until you get good at it, then move out to 50 yards. Even at today's prices it's still cheaper than centerfire and recoil and noise are non-issues. At 50 yards you should be shooting groups you can cover with a quarter. Then work on it till you can cover them with a nickel. Then you can go back to shooting centerfires.

BTW, as much as I hate see-through rings, they may be necessary because that thumbhole stock appears to have very little drop and a ring that high may be required.

[BumbleBug]

Here is the best advice I can give you to help shoot the best groups your rifle is capable of.

As many have said, "dry fire". While dry firing in the house can help trigger control it is not the best practice. Set up your bench, rest & target just like the real thing. I suggest the target be at 100yds. Dry fire using a snap cap or dummy round with a fired primer. Center the crosshairs on target & dry fire. Keep your eye opened & practice, practice, practice until the crosshairs do not change position AFTER the shot. Experiment because all of the things suggested in this thread can be detected by this exercise. Things like is your bench steady, is your rest good enough, is your cheek weld good, is your technique good, etc. Sounds simple but is very difficult to achieve. If you can learn to keep your eye(s) open after the firing pin falls you'll go a long way to cure/avoid a flinch. This dry/fire & watch technique is easier to do with a higher power scope.

You can buy first rate equipment & ammo but you can't buy technique. Just like a winning race car, all things must be running to perfection, including the driver & how he performs.

By all means, once you start shooting well try some longer range groups. I assure you it will be quite sobering & eye opening. I had an epiphany the first time I shot some 400 yd groups with my hunting rifle!

Good luck & welcome to the point where shooting becomes an accuracy addiction!

...bug

[Jim243]

but you can't buy technique. Just like a winning race car, all things must be running to perfection, including the driver & how he performs.

That is the true secret to shooting good (small) groups regardless of distance.

First thing to learn is breathing, yes I know you do it all the time, but we are talking about controlling it while setting up for the shot and while pulling the trigger. Take in a deep breath and blow it out, do that two times, on the third time when you exhale hold your breath then slowly squeeze the trigger all the way back and hold it there until the bullet has exited the rifle. Then you can start breathing again.

The next thing to lean is "DO NOT USE YOUR LEFT HAND ON THE RIFLE". I set the front of the rifle on a set of sand bags or a rest. My left hand (I am right handed) is placed under my right hand to steady it and help keep the sights (Scope) on the center of the target.

The third thing is that "EVERY SHOT IS YOUR FIRST SHOT." Worrying where the previous shot went won't help you since your next shot has to be the same as previous one "YOUR FIRST SHOT". Do not look where it went, you will view them all after you have taken your fifth shot. Looking does not change anything from before.

The forth thing is that at 100 yards you do not need to worry about the wind, but shooting out farther than 200 yards you need to see if conditions have changed and adjust accordingly.

The last and final thing is to allow your rifle to do it's thing. Don't try to over power it, don't try to make it shoot to a different point of aim, just let it do it's job as you must do your job. What is that, control your breathing, keep the sights (Scope) on the center of the target, and squeeze the trigger don't pull it.

If these things are done and done properly your results will be amazing. So just have fun. Worrying raises the blood pressure which tightens muscles which makes you do things that you shouldn't. Just relax and have fun.

You will get these results:

Five shot group, where the fifth bullet went is anybodies guess but it is some where in that group.


Jim

[precision_shooter]

My best 5-shot group at 100yds. .532" from edge to edge, subtract bullet diameter of .308 and end up with .224" group. At least that's how I think you measure the group...? Shot with a rifle I never should have sold, Savage 12FV chambered in .308. 26 inch heavy barrel in a Choate "Ultimate Sniper" stock, using a Barska 6-24x50 (I was a little younger and less wise to quality scopes).

[crane550]

Spent some time with my Dad this Thanksgiving holiday and got to spend some time plinking.

Spent some time shooting open sights with an M1 30-06, which was a blast. My dad shot several sub MOA groups with open sights. I was surprised how it grouped, and I didn't do quite as good but still was happy.

The highlight of the week was a gift from Dad, a Schmidt-Rubin staight pull rifle. It takes 7.5x55 Swiss. I THINK it is the 1911, and according to the Serial # it was built in 1898. Unfortunately it has been sportstered, but it still looks really nice and is pretty clean.

Still have not had a chance to shoot it, but really looking forward to it. Planning to leave it as-is, open sights.

[crane550]

Ooops, forgot the pics.

[Jimro]

Crane550,

If you want to get better faster, you need to attend training. Not a whole lot of opportunity in Boise Idaho, but more than enough to get started.

Joe Huffman generally has a rifle clinic prior to Boomershoot. I would see if you could sign up for the 2015 clinic. here is a link to this years event: http://www.boomershoot.org/2014/clinic.htm

You can also keep an eye out for an Appleseed event near you: http://appleseedinfo.org/search-states-map.php

You can also start competing in High Power, the Nampa Roda and Gun club may let you shoot your rifles as is but out of competition, or maybe they'll let you compete in hunting class. http://www.nragc.com/shooting-disciplines

Hope this helps,
Jimro

[edward hogan]

Might look for Gary Anderson's book on Marksmanship.

Lots of good pointers here already. Flinching, really with your .223? That is the gun of the 2 you showed which you should be learning on. The .270 is a pretty good recoiler to learn with if you aren't loading your own mild target loads.

Got a decent trigger? Crisp let-off and smooth? That will make a big difference.

Got a clean barrel? No powder or copper fouling present? Can use Barnes CR-10 and clean the barrel til no more coppery blue patches result and then go through the barrel break-in process and build a smooth and uniform barrel surface.

Got properly torqued scope mount system and is your scope on axis with bore and stable? If it is, you should try using a square aiming point and aligning your reticle with bottom corner of the aiming point. Not worried about "in the bull" results; you want tiny group clusters above your aiming point.

Shooting decent ammo? Really the whole reason to handload, so you have more control and understand the variables.



Hate to say it, but if your goal is really to shoot small groups at distance, your gear is a bit of a handicap. Good stuff for hunting and shooting coyotes etc, but to be pouring $1 a round commercial ammo into the berm, you are wasting your money.

Want to achieve your goals much earlier? Decide on your goals and buy the gear. Might sell your current rifles to finance one that will take you where you intend to go. The longrange Savages are supposed to be very good and very affordable. Tikka Varmint is another fine choice. A .260rem would give you very affordable longrange ctg. 7mm-08 is another mainstream option.

Scope and mount system will take half your budget. Maybe a 36x Weaver or Sightron saves a few hundred... The real expense is your time and ammunition. Once you learn consistency you'll likely want more than a production line rifle. Handloading will be the biggest aide to your efforts.

There are a few tricks to make a sporting rifle "shoot", but they cost gunsmith time and real money. The time you will never regain, the money is lost making the sow's ear into a purse. Really need an entry level rifle that will deliver improved results to you as you improve. What you have now is not going to do so.

[Mobuck]

Marksmanship is best learned using a 22lr @50-100' NOT scattering bullets randomly across a target @200 yards.

[Jimro]

Marksmanship is best learned with a single shot precision air rifle at ten meters.

Match grade pellets are cheaper than match grade rimfire ammunition.

Jimro

[crane550]

Edward,

I know many very experienced shooters that still flinch, and the best shots that I personally know have all told me it took years to kick, and they still have to be careful about it. I think most of it just has to do with knowing exactly when the gun will go off, and not tensing up before due to it. I'm not ashamed to admit it, especially with the larger calibers. I still have not had a chance to fire my Schmidt Rubin, so I will see how the recoil is on that. I'm certainly not gun shy, there isn't anything out there I would refuse to shoot (well, there might be exceptions) but for the most part I'm perfectly comfortable firing a gun. It's just a human tendency to tighten up as you pull the trigger and it simply takes practice. I get better every time I shoot.

I also disagree with my gear being a problem. I went out with my Dad the other day for some shooting, and he shot all of my guns. The old fart can't see the TV, and wears reading glasses when he shoots, but he outshot me in every category, and got groups I can only hope for. That tells me there is plenty of room to grow into my gear, which is good news for me. It means I have a lot to improve upon.

It's not about bowling a perfect 300 every time, or even having the highest score of all my friends. I never do. It's about getting close to or beating my all time hight score.

Anyways, my love of shooting is growing daily. I just got my reloading kit in a few days ago, but have not had time to really set it up. I only got 1 set of dies, which is for the 270. That is what I have the most brass for. It quickly became clear that my desk was not strong enough for the press (I even bolted it to the desk, just don't tell my wife) but the desk is already starting to crack. I think tomorrows project is to try to build a decent reloading bench. Going to do a steel/wood construction. I will post pics of the build.





Also ordered 160 rounds of GP11 ammo for the Swiss. I didn't realize they were Berdan primers- my hope was to reload them. I see there are tutorials to switch to a box primer. I will try a few and see how they go.

Alex

[crane550]

Originally Posted by edward hogan

Got a decent trigger? Crisp let-off and smooth? That will make a big difference.

The Schmidt Rubin has an amazing trigger! I have not fired it yet, but I really look forward to it.

The .223 is also pretty good. The .270 is by far the worst, but I hear there is a lot you can do to the 700's to make them work really well. I will probably worry about getting my scope mounted better first.

[MrBorland]

Originally Posted by crane550

I know many very experienced shooters that still flinch, and the best shots that I personally know have all told me it took years to kick, and they still have to be careful about it.

And this speaks to the importance of not adopting a flinch in the first place, and the importance of minimizing even the risk that you'll adopt one. Ideally, you'd get instruction and lots of range time in with a .22, but if you're going to reload for your .270 instead, I'd strongly urge you to start with low-power loads. There's a lot written on that topic. Better yet, get a set of .223 dies. Or buy a .22.

Originally Posted by crane550

I think most of it just has to do with knowing exactly when the gun will go off, and not tensing up before due to it...I'm certainly not gun shy, there isn't anything out there I would refuse to shoot (well, there might be exceptions) but for the most part I'm perfectly comfortable firing a gun. It's just a human tendency to tighten up as you pull the trigger and it simply takes practice.

Some flinch is anticipation of recoil and muzzle blast. But the most insidious flinch comes from simply wanting to make a good shot. IOW, making the gun do something by seeing a good sight picture and yanking that trigger...now!! So, no matter how comfy you are shooting a rifle, this can still bite you. It can be subtle (or not), so be aware of it.

Keep this in mind: The target doesn't matter. It's merely a recording device that records how well you executed the fundamentals and/or how badly you flinched. Execute the fundamentals well, and the target will take care of itself. Remember this for every shot.

Good luck!

[darkgael]

But the most insidious flinch comes from simply wanting to make a good shot.

A marvelous observation.......the difference between a careful let off of a shot and a Jerk can be amazingly (or insidiously) subtle. Close attention to what is going on at that final moment is paramount.

[SR420]

https://becomingriflemen.wordpress.com/

[Captains1911]

I said it earlier but I will say it again....attend an Appleseed shoot.

[crane550]

Next Appleseed event near here is in April in Nampa, ID. I will definitely be there!

Alex

[Bart B.]

After reading this thread a few times, I want to comment about some misconceptions about shooting small groups at 1000 yards.

Shooting Positions

The most accurate rifle, sight and ammo combination will not shoot too accurate when handheld against one's shoulder as it rests atop something on a bench top the shooter's sitting next to. This is the least repeatable position. Many people need a yardstick or two to measure group sizes. The more recoil the rifle has, the harder it is to fire each shot repeatable. While one may have an aiming area 1/4 MOA on the target, the non-repeatable positions adds 1 to 2 MOA to the groups the stuff can shoot properly tested. This is how most folks test their stuff for accuracy.

Same stuff shot prone slung up in a good positfion using good marksmanship skills and knowledge is better. There's not much difference in group sizes between scope sights and aperture sights in scores shot on bullseye targets. One can keep their aiming area in a 3/4 MOA circle when the do all the right things. But the small variables in holding the rifle opens up the groups on paper 3/4 to 1-1/2 MOA.

Very small groups shot with that stuff happens in prone, with or without a sling, but the stock is rested front and back. Such a position is much more repeatable than without rests on prone. A 1/10th MOA aiming area is possible. Rifle holding variables can open up groups 1/4 to 1/2 MOA.

Tiniest groups are shot with very heavy rifles laying on precision rests that stay in position and let the rifle slide back in free recoil very repeatably for each shot. The rear one will be moved a bit sideways to compensate for wind changes. Easy to do when the only thing touching the rifle was a finger on a 2-ounce trigger. Such is life in benchrest matches when the aiming area is about 1/100 MOA or less. And there are no rifle holding variables.

So, what position do you want to shoot from?

[crane550]

Well, this isn't directly shooting related but it's close. I have been getting my reloading setup put together, and one of the big things is building a good bench for reloading and cleaning the guns. It will also double as a soldering workstation. (yes, I will keep powder and hot irons very far away from each other!)

Anyways, found steel at the local recyclers. Got all I need for $20. The wood is reclaimed from some old barn years ago. It has been sitting in my garage for the last 4 years, and I am glad to finally find a really good use for it. The table is 2x2 welded steel framed (no, I am not going to show you my welds) and the top is about 1.5" thick. Should be plenty sturdy. I was also very happy with how straight I got it to come out. Next step is to glue the slabs together, paint the frame, and get it put together. Then the real fun begins!

Not quite there yet, but I will have a lot of questions about reloading itself. Stay tuned!



You can make any weld look good with a decent angle grinder!






After jointing they fit together nice and flat.


Next question is what type of finish for the top?

[crane550]

Much more progress on my reloading bench.

Painted the frame with Rustoleum Hammered Black.


More coats of oil and then shellac for the upper shelf.


Starting assembly in the bedroom.


Structural testing. So far we know it can support the weight of a baby.


Installed back boards, foot boards, went through half a can of wood screws mounting everything up, moved my stuff over, and the bench is complete. Not to get the reloading gear setup.


Turned out really good, even by my standards. It will serve well. For now the only thing I am hard mounting is the press. I will mount the powder press to a movable plate and not mount it to keep desk space open. Might change it later, but that should work for now.

[MrBorland]

WOW! Very nice! I'd be afraid of scratching it!