various distance shooting

Kyo · January 24, 2010, 10:23 PM

So, I went to a range on my own a few days ago. I practiced so I can learn to group tighter groups. I was using a 12x12 target at all the distances.
I tried out to 25 yards. I was doing like 8 inch groups at that distance? Maybe more? I hadn't really tried to shoot at that much of a range before.
Does it really matter that I learn to do 4 inches or less at 25 yards?
Does it really matter that I learn to do tight groups at smaller distances? What do you feel is acceptable grouping for you?
Edit- Ruger P345 with reloads of 185g LSWC over 4.3g bullseye with CCI primers and mixed brass

noyes · January 24, 2010, 10:37 PM

Long range handgun shooting is Fun . 50 ,100 ,150 yds. Some shoot handguns a 300 yds,
It helps make your hand(s) steady.
Then after shooting at 100yds. any less distance 75, 50 , 25 will become a peice of cake.

Kyo · January 24, 2010, 11:04 PM

i don't think I would even be able to see the target at 300 yards >.>

Nnobby45 · January 24, 2010, 11:39 PM

I like the Rob Pincus philosophy (that's held by many), that once you can shoot "tight groups" at a certain distance, increase shot speed.

Several quick shots in the minus zero zone of an IDPA target (about 8") is better than taking more time to shoot a smaller group. 9" plates will suffice for practice.

Or, simply put: If your groups are tight, you're shooting too slow.

Don't forget that as distance increases, so does time. At real close distances, I'm not saying you can't do better, at speed, than 8" groups.

None of the above is related to target shooting, where tight groups are desirable.

**Frank Ettin** · January 25, 2010, 02:30 AM

I think shooting for accuracy at longer ranges should be part of, but certainly not all of, one's practice. Trigger control is fundamental, and shooting at greater distances helps improve, and program good, trigger control.

By all means practice quick multiple shot strings at various closer distances, using either point shooting or flash sight picture as appropriate for the distance. But save some ammunition for some slow fire shooting a longer distances to sharpen trigger control.

highvel · January 25, 2010, 05:30 AM

For me I love to end a pistol session shooting at the farthest distance apropriate for the firearm available. Even the .45 ACP is a joy when you lob in a few rounds at 100 yds into a paper plate size target.(Off a Rest)

CWPinSC · January 25, 2010, 10:52 AM

ranges over 15 yards are fun to shoot, but unless the attacker also has a firearm, you are not justified in shooting at those longer distances - at least not in SC. The BG must have:
A. The ABILITY to inflict serious bodily injury. He is armed or reasonably appears to be armed.

B. The OPPORTUNITY to inflict serious bodily harm. He is positioned to harm you with his weapon, and,

C. His INTENT (hostile actions or words) indicates that he means to place you in jeopardy - to do you serious or fatal physical harm.

Usually, you start with shorter distances and work your way out to the long ones. Personally, I'd rather be able to shoot 2" groups at 7 yards than 4" groups at 25. For me, in the "9" ring of a B-27 target at 7 yards is acceptable. That's COM and two shots about 3" apart will create a wicked wound channel.

kraigwy · January 25, 2010, 11:39 AM

Lets think about this a bit. Two of my grandkids use to fight over their basketball net. One wanted in adjusted about 3 feet off the ground and hardly ever missed. The other wanted it regulation height. She could bearly get the ball to the net. As they got older, one got board sinking baskets, the other is a star on her middleschool basket ball team. GUESS WHICH ONE IS BEST.

Pretty much anyone can tear a ragged hole in a target at 7 yards. But what about 50 yards. Naw we dont try because it isnt any fun to miss.

I'm not the best pistol shooter by a long shot, I shot some pretty crappy scores at the 50 yard line at bulleye. I miss a lot of targets shooting my 642 at 100 yards. But I still shoot 100 yards, I still shoot bulleyes.

Do I expect to be involoved in a SD situartion at 100 yards, HECK NO. But I do want to learn how to shoot my pocket pistol better.

Late one evening I peeked out of my shop after hearing my chickens throwing a fit. I saw a fox trying to get in. I didnt have time to hunt up a rifle but I did have my 642 in my pocket, and I killed the fox, ........at a hair over 35 yards.

You have to deside if you want to sink baskets in a three foot hoop or do you want to learn to play basket ball. Do you want to spend all day shooting one ragged hole at 7 yards or do you want to learn to shoot.

MrBorland · January 25, 2010, 12:26 PM

Quote:

You have to deside if you want to sink baskets in a three foot hoop or do you want to learn to play basket ball. Do you want to spend all day shooting one ragged hole at 7 yards or do you want to learn to shoot.

+1 Kraigwy.

One of our members here (or THR?) once replied that shooting unsupported 50 yard cloverleafs with a handgun was a skill looking for an application. I agree, but only to a point.

You don't have to be a dedicated target shooter to practice the fundamentals, and 25 yards is a fine distance to judge how well you're doing.

I recall Brian Enos, the great action shooter, wrote on his forum, "you never really go Beyond Fundamentals (title of his book), you just apply them faster". I strongly suspect that any decent action shooter can pick up their gun and shoot a relatively impressive 25 yard unsupported group on demand, and I think it's not a bad standard to apply to ourselves once in a while.

If you have aspirations to be a good shooter, even if it's for SD reasons, yet you can't even get close to shooting a good, consistent and honest unsupported 25 yard 5-shot group on demand with a service pistol/revolver, now's probably a good time to stop poo-pooing it and start practicing. Just my $0.02.

Hook686 · January 25, 2010, 06:47 PM

I shoot a S&W 627PC, 5" barrel. I shoot 50 yards with hand supported by bench, 25 yards two hands, 15 yards two hands, 10 yards two hands (strong side and weak side). It is a modified FBI qualification (timed).

I have noticed that shooting the 25 yard range and getting 8" groupings, that my 10 yard, and 15 yard groups have not only gotten tighter, but the time to fire 5 shots has actually gotten quicker.

Very good practice.

I'll leave the 100, 200, 300 yard shooting to folks with good eyes, though I will take my scoped Desert Eagle out for 100-150 yard Coyote shoots.

By the way, what is a,

Quote:

good, consistent and honest unsupported 25 yard 5-shot group

?

Kyo · January 26, 2010, 07:46 PM

I am near sighted with a astigmatism. it is hard for me to know what i am seeing and where I am actually shooting. I could try the Shoot N C but idk if that would help. Point is, I feel that I am limited by my vision. How would one compensate for his shooting with this condition? I wear glasses, and contacts.

highvel · January 26, 2010, 10:58 PM

What I was referring to was shooting fun, I would never engage someone at 75 or 100 yards, I would simply find cover and wait till they got a little closer

MrBorland · January 27, 2010, 09:40 AM

Quote:

By the way, what is a,

Quote:

Quote:
good, consistent and honest unsupported 25 yard 5-shot group

Well, JMO, but...

Good: Depends. IMO, "good", but not outstanding, is 3" with a service-sized handgun. More generally, then, I'd say "good" is the ability to Consistently and Honestly hit CoM at 25 yards, so I'd say 6" or so.

Consistent: Your "good" group is fairly typical for you; it isn't one of your "truly exceptional; couldn't do it again in a hundred years" groups.

Honest: No "fliers". Your group includes all your shots. If it was a true flier, it wont matter much after you've shot a number of groups. If you seem to get "a flier" regularly, they aren't fliers.

Unsupported: Standing, shooting 2- or even 1-handed. Slow deliberate aimed shots (double action revolver shooters should be able to do this shooting DA). No bench, bags, or barricades. Or excuses. Just you and your gun.

Balog · January 27, 2010, 11:11 AM

If this was General Handguns, I'd say learn to shoot at 25 yards as it will make you a better shooter for punching paper.

Since this is Tactics and Training, I'd say learn to shoot acceptable (5-6" imho) groups very quickly. Very fast 5" groups > slow 1" groups in an actual SD situation.

Different goals, different training requirements. Both are useful, but focus on your more important goal and devote the majority of your time to it. If you're just shooting for fun (a perfectly acceptable goal) definitely shoot at longer ranges.

Edit: please don't post all the random situations that might require pinpoint precision. I know there have been genuine self defense situations at 75 yards, and homeowners who need to make headshots around a hostage. If you have the time and training budget to expand to those things, great! If you're like most of us and can't get trained to a high level of proficiency at everything, then focus on the most likely situation.

January 24, 2010, 10:23 PM	#1
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	various distance shooting So, I went to a range on my own a few days ago. I practiced so I can learn to group tighter groups. I was using a 12x12 target at all the distances. I tried out to 25 yards. I was doing like 8 inch groups at that distance? Maybe more? I hadn't really tried to shoot at that much of a range before. Does it really matter that I learn to do 4 inches or less at 25 yards? Does it really matter that I learn to do tight groups at smaller distances? What do you feel is acceptable grouping for you? Edit- Ruger P345 with reloads of 185g LSWC over 4.3g bullseye with CCI primers and mixed brass __________________ 1. The gun is *always* loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger unless you are ready to shoot. 4. Be be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

January 24, 2010, 11:04 PM	#3
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	i don't think I would even be able to see the target at 300 yards >.> __________________ 1. The gun is *always* loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger unless you are ready to shoot. 4. Be be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

January 24, 2010, 11:39 PM	#4
Nnobby45 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2004 Posts: 3,150	I like the Rob Pincus philosophy (that's held by many), that once you can shoot "tight groups" at a certain distance, increase shot speed. Several quick shots in the minus zero zone of an IDPA target (about 8") is better than taking more time to shoot a smaller group. 9" plates will suffice for practice. Or, simply put: If your groups are tight, you're shooting too slow. Don't forget that as distance increases, so does time. At real close distances, I'm not saying you can't do better, at speed, than 8" groups. None of the above is related to target shooting, where tight groups are desirable. Last edited by Nnobby45; January 24, 2010 at 11:44 PM.

January 25, 2010, 05:30 AM	#6
highvel Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2010 Location: Powhatan VA Posts: 633	Longer Ranges For me I love to end a pistol session shooting at the farthest distance apropriate for the firearm available. Even the .45 ACP is a joy when you lob in a few rounds at 100 yds into a paper plate size target.(Off a Rest)

January 25, 2010, 11:39 AM	#8
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	Lets think about this a bit. Two of my grandkids use to fight over their basketball net. One wanted in adjusted about 3 feet off the ground and hardly ever missed. The other wanted it regulation height. She could bearly get the ball to the net. As they got older, one got board sinking baskets, the other is a star on her middleschool basket ball team. GUESS WHICH ONE IS BEST. Pretty much anyone can tear a ragged hole in a target at 7 yards. But what about 50 yards. Naw we dont try because it isnt any fun to miss. I'm not the best pistol shooter by a long shot, I shot some pretty crappy scores at the 50 yard line at bulleye. I miss a lot of targets shooting my 642 at 100 yards. But I still shoot 100 yards, I still shoot bulleyes. Do I expect to be involoved in a SD situartion at 100 yards, HECK NO. But I do want to learn how to shoot my pocket pistol better. Late one evening I peeked out of my shop after hearing my chickens throwing a fit. I saw a fox trying to get in. I didnt have time to hunt up a rifle but I did have my 642 in my pocket, and I killed the fox, ........at a hair over 35 yards. You have to deside if you want to sink baskets in a three foot hoop or do you want to learn to play basket ball. Do you want to spend all day shooting one ragged hole at 7 yards or do you want to learn to shoot. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

January 24, 2010, 10:37 PM	#2
noyes Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2008 Posts: 1,032	Long range handgun shooting is Fun . 50 ,100 ,150 yds. Some shoot handguns a 300 yds, It helps make your hand(s) steady. Then after shooting at 100yds. any less distance 75, 50 , 25 will become a peice of cake.

January 25, 2010, 02:30 AM	#5
Frank Ettin Staff Join Date: November 23, 2005 Location: California - San Francisco Posts: 9,471	I think shooting for accuracy at longer ranges should be part of, but certainly not all of, one's practice. Trigger control is fundamental, and shooting at greater distances helps improve, and program good, trigger control. By all means practice quick multiple shot strings at various closer distances, using either point shooting or flash sight picture as appropriate for the distance. But save some ammunition for some slow fire shooting a longer distances to sharpen trigger control.

January 25, 2010, 10:52 AM	#7
CWPinSC Junior member Join Date: July 1, 2009 Posts: 863	ranges over 15 yards are fun to shoot, but unless the attacker also has a firearm, you are not justified in shooting at those longer distances - at least not in SC. The BG must have: A. The ABILITY to inflict serious bodily injury. He is armed or reasonably appears to be armed. B. The OPPORTUNITY to inflict serious bodily harm. He is positioned to harm you with his weapon, and, C. His INTENT (hostile actions or words) indicates that he means to place you in jeopardy - to do you serious or fatal physical harm. Usually, you start with shorter distances and work your way out to the long ones. Personally, I'd rather be able to shoot 2" groups at 7 yards than 4" groups at 25. For me, in the "9" ring of a B-27 target at 7 yards is acceptable. That's COM and two shots about 3" apart will create a wicked wound channel.

January 26, 2010, 07:46 PM	#11
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	I am near sighted with a astigmatism. it is hard for me to know what i am seeing and where I am actually shooting. I could try the Shoot N C but idk if that would help. Point is, I feel that I am limited by my vision. How would one compensate for his shooting with this condition? I wear glasses, and contacts. __________________ 1. The gun is *always* loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger unless you are ready to shoot. 4. Be be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

January 26, 2010, 10:58 PM	#12
highvel Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2010 Location: Powhatan VA Posts: 633	What I was referring to was shooting fun, I would never engage someone at 75 or 100 yards, I would simply find cover and wait till they got a little closer

January 27, 2010, 11:11 AM	#14
Balog Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Posts: 259	If this was General Handguns, I'd say learn to shoot at 25 yards as it will make you a better shooter for punching paper. Since this is Tactics and Training, I'd say learn to shoot acceptable (5-6" imho) groups very quickly. Very fast 5" groups > slow 1" groups in an actual SD situation. Different goals, different training requirements. Both are useful, but focus on your more important goal and devote the majority of your time to it. If you're just shooting for fun (a perfectly acceptable goal) definitely shoot at longer ranges. Edit: please don't post all the random situations that might require pinpoint precision. I know there have been genuine self defense situations at 75 yards, and homeowners who need to make headshots around a hostage. If you have the time and training budget to expand to those things, great! If you're like most of us and can't get trained to a high level of proficiency at everything, then focus on the most likely situation.