June 5, 2019, 10:03 PM | #76 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 4,232
|
Everything from Lake City to Lapua. Currently use LC (non sorted in any way) and Lapua in .223. Peterson and Lapua in .260 Rem. Alpha in 6mm Creedmoor. Hornady and Starline in 6.5 Grendel.
About 2 years ago when I started my road to developing match quality ammo I tried everything in the book and tested it including water volume and case weight. I found the most important criteria for single digit SD's is the proper powder, primer and bullet combo. My case prep includes a neck trim and a light inside chamfer after each firing, cases are wet cleaned with SS pins. Before first firing I uniform all primer cups and when priming check for uniform primer seating between .002 and .006 below case head as per US Army Marksmanship team standards. Powder for matches is weighed plus or minus .1 gns. When developing the load I go like to down to plus or minus .002 grams to find flat veloccity nodes .3 grains or larger so I don't have to sweat match loads charge weights being off a tad or minor changes in temperature I have great reloads, now if I can just learn to read wind and mirage. Wind shifts in the middle of 20 round F Class matches kick my butt
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek |
June 6, 2019, 07:45 AM | #77 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
|
Quote:
|
|
June 6, 2019, 09:25 AM | #78 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 7,097
|
Quote:
Milspec cartridges can range from a few tens of pounds to several hundreds of pounds of bullet hold, to the point where competition shooters figured out that seating a match bullet a tad bit deeper in the case (breaking the bitumen seal) would give them better results as it uniformed up the bullet hold before a match. Why any of that has anything to do with case weight ranges is beyond me. I know folks who sort cases religiously and shoot high scores, I know High Master's who say, "throw a match bullet on top of some powder and send it!" and keep their HM cards. My advise, if you shoot benchrest then sort everything by every repeatable measurement you can. If you don't shoot benchrest, sorting by headstamp and year is probably just fine.
__________________
Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one. |
|
June 6, 2019, 11:42 AM | #79 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 4,232
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek |
||
June 6, 2019, 01:12 PM | #80 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 7, 2015
Posts: 160
|
Hounddawg, I have often wondered about the repeatability of my scales, they check weight perfect, but do they each time? How much improvement did you see when you started using this scale?
For Reloadron, jam the bullet into the lands if you want to see instant inprovement on you group size. Back in the 60's, young and dumb, I had a 22-250 that must of had a throat 1/2 the length of the barrel, I could just stake a bullet into a case and fire. The group size became 1/2 what I was getting. If I didn't shoot a chambered round I had to knock the bullet out with a cleaning rod. I have not tried this with any other rifle. |
June 6, 2019, 03:09 PM | #81 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
|
Quote:
Once had to load 42 rounds of issued hand loaded match ammo to shoot 2 sighters and 20 record shots in a 1000 yard match. 20 had no powder and their bullets barely moved from primer firing, maybe a couple thousandths. The bullet pull forces on the remaining 18 rounds weighing about 44 grains (charge weight) more than others was about 7 pounds, about 6 pounds on the duds without powder as tested the next day. Cases were new 7.62 M118 match primed reloaded with IMR4320 and Sierra 190's. Lyman 310 tong tool nutcrackers were oft times used to crack bullet sealant on military match ammo. Which often cut vertical stringing in half. Not legal in EIC matches, it altered the ammo. Last edited by Bart B.; June 6, 2019 at 06:53 PM. |
|
June 6, 2019, 07:23 PM | #82 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 4,232
|
Quote:
A perfect load is where one case can have 35.0 gns of powder, the next 35.1, and the third 34.9 and at 500 yards and greater have less than a .1 MOA vertical dispersion if shot from a test barrel in a machine rest. If you do the load development right a RCBS 750 or any .1 gn scale is good to go for matches. For developing the load though I use frog hair measurements. As UncleNick has told us , powder will change weight depending on moisture content and the same powder may have small changes from lot# to lot#. For anything greater than 400 or 500 a flat node is a must or variances in charge result in vertical dispersion If you want a cheap backup scale get a Gempro 20 off Amazon or Ebay. It's only about .01 gns off from the A&D in accuracy and is every bit as precise when weighing charges. It is small and battery powered which makes it a pain to use but it is a very precise scale, it's repeatability is excellent
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek Last edited by hounddawg; June 6, 2019 at 07:45 PM. |
|
June 6, 2019, 07:53 PM | #83 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
|
Quote:
Do you have a tuning weight on the barrel? What company makes bullets so perfectly balanced to have the exact same BC to do that? One 3 shot series after another five times for statistical significance. Last edited by Bart B.; June 6, 2019 at 10:21 PM. |
|
June 6, 2019, 11:07 PM | #84 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 4,232
|
light gun match record for 5 shot groups at 1000 yards is 1.087" or about .1 MOA. 5 perfect loads shot with perfect form and perfect wind reading plus a good dose of pure T outhouse luck
https://internationalbenchrest.com/r...longrange-1000
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek |
June 7, 2019, 07:16 AM | #85 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
|
Quote:
The size of the biggest 5 shot group shot with the load used has to be considered to be realistic in any evaluation of its accuracy to be counted on. All single few-shot group records are mostly luck. Same for six 10 shot group aggregate records whose biggest single group is several times larger than the smallest 5-shot group shot with the same load. A dose of pure T outhouse luck should not be considered for realistic accuracy assesment of a load. The biggest groups shot best represent what can be expected some of the time. Average of several 5 or 10 shot groups is more realistic. Cherry pickin' the smallest to claim its value is popular. A 1.08 MOA group at 1000 is bigger than your perfect standard. Last edited by Bart B.; June 7, 2019 at 11:17 AM. |
|
June 7, 2019, 08:18 AM | #86 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 2, 2010
Location: Plainview , Long Island NY
Posts: 3,863
|
I enjoy reloading my own rounds , went through all the ways to create that thousand yard stare . I do sort my case brands , fire one brand per range trip . Making every case as exact as possible , meaning , sizing , trimming and seating primers . I double check my powder charges , first with the ChargeMaster 1500 and fine tune with the GemPro 250 , shoot the same lot of bullets . Never got into heating the brass or using a chronograph . Playing with new tools it nice up to a point .Got back into enjoying target shooting by limiting my crazyness. Once I found a accurate load , I now concentrate only on my shooting form . Untill I burn out this barrel , then it starts all over again .
|
June 7, 2019, 09:05 AM | #87 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 7,249
|
Quote:
My strain gages are dial indicators that are calibrated to read in pounds in big chunks. The first tension gage: I was working a set of tongs when I noticed this large clock looking dial with one hand/indicator. Again, no tension measurements, only in pounds as in thousands of pounds. For accuracy it was necessary to count the number of cables etc. etc. As the rigs got taller the number of cables increased. Anyhow, I am the fan of bullet hold, because my gages do not measure in tensions I measure bullet hold in pounds. I have used interference fit and I have used crush fit, again, I have used presses with hydraulic gages to determine the amount of effort required to install sleeves; it never took long to get the readings up to thousands of pounds. I have never found a conversion that foes from tensions to pounds, I have never found a gage that measured in tensions; I have found reloadiung forums full of tensioners that are infatuated with the word tension. F. Guffey |
|
June 7, 2019, 10:15 AM | #88 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 7,249
|
And then? A company built a bullet seating devise that measures the amount of effort required to seat a bullet and no one noticed the effort required was in pounds. The bullet seating devise is hydraulic with a pressure gage calibrated in pounds.
No one noticed but there was no conversion for tensions to pounds. And then there are the grippers with the tensioners. Next we have the load cell-ers. they are reinventing bullet seating with load cells. F. Guffey |
June 7, 2019, 01:12 PM | #89 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 7,097
|
Quote:
__________________
Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one. |
|
June 7, 2019, 04:14 PM | #90 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
|
Those reloads were made a week before I picked them up on Friday to go to the match. Bullets and powder removed a week or more earlier. The Unit processed one 460 round M118 ammo can at a time.
I think my teammates had the loading room crew make them for me. But I won the match with 98-17V (old "C" target in 1971) losing 2 points barely out in the changing wind. A real life ball and dummy exercise. Last edited by Bart B.; June 7, 2019 at 04:22 PM. |
June 20, 2019, 09:43 AM | #91 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
|
Quote:
If you use this http://www.corbins.com/hct-1.htm you can increase bullet hold, a must to get the most grip. |
|
|
|