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Old October 10, 2017, 03:42 PM   #1
steve4102
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Brady Center Sues SlideFire Solutions

LAS VEGAS (KSNV News3LV) — A class action lawsuit has been filed in the District Court of Clark County on behalf of the Las Vegas shooting victims.

The suit, which is filed by Las Vegas law firm Eglet Prince and the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, is against Slide Fire Solutions, LP and the sellers, manufacturers, and marketers of "bump stock" devices.


More here.

http://news3lv.com/news/local/bump-s...ooting-victims

The PLCAA protects firearms manufactures and dealers from being held liable when crimes are committed with their products.

So, my question is, are Firearm accessories like Bump Stocks covered under the PLCAA statute or are they susceptible to these types of lawsuits?
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Old October 10, 2017, 04:12 PM   #2
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How does the Brady bunch have standing in this to sue?
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Old October 10, 2017, 05:48 PM   #3
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Im not sure if they're covered but the case will go no where.
They had an approval letter from the ATF, they were conducting legit business.

I don't see how they could possibly from any sort of coherent case.

What it does do is get them attention and probably some donations.
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Old October 10, 2017, 06:35 PM   #4
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We may just get it right !!!

Quote:
Brady Center Sues SlideFire Solutions
I've been waiting to see who was going to be first to file a lawsuit. I expect to see a bunch of "civil" lawsuits to follow. Granted, this device was ruled to be legal, under the Obama administration but that does not protect any of the manufacturers from "predictable" lawsuits that are coming. Eventually they will be regulated by the ATF and let's hope they get it right, this time ...

I might add that last weekend, some dealers were asking $800.00+ for these.

Be Safe !!!
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Old October 10, 2017, 06:41 PM   #5
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Quote:
So, my question is, are Firearm accessories like Bump Stocks covered under the PLCAA statute or are they susceptible to these types of lawsuits?
That is a very perceptive question. I do not know the answer, but perhaps one of our legal experts will weigh in.
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Old October 10, 2017, 07:39 PM   #6
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The Prince Law Blog had an interesting discussion of that same subject. The short version: Who knows?

https://blog.princelaw.com/category/firearms-law/
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Old October 10, 2017, 07:51 PM   #7
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Hope this one gets thrown out.
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Old October 10, 2017, 09:02 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts
The Prince Law Blog had an interesting discussion of that same subject. The short version: Who knows?
Thanks for the link.

From the article.

Quote:
Does the PLCAA Protect Slide Fire?

While there is plenty of caselaw regarding the PLCAA, I have not seen any where accessories have been implicated. Obviously, the crux of the argument with regards to the PLCAA applying to Slide Fire would be that their product is a component part.

As we saw above, in order for the PLCAA to apply, Slide Fire must either meet the definition of Manufacturer or Seller.

Fortunately for Slide Fire, they are a Type 07 FFL, which puts them into the definition of a Manufacturer under the PLCAA.

The Slide Fire stocks are qualified products (being that they are “a component part of a firearm”). So it would naturally follow that the PLCAA would apply.
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Old October 10, 2017, 09:54 PM   #9
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I guess I'll never quite understand this angle from the anti-gunners. (Suing Firearms makers for crimes committed with their devices)

If it were to be possible to hold them civilly liable, it would open a can of worms that would extend far beyond firearms. How about suing Coors Brewing company for a drunken driver killing a family? If there were no booze, then we wouldn't have drunks right? Coors would say drinking to excess is misuse of thier product, but nonetheless, people drink too much and hurt/kill others. I have family members who were killed by one such drunk driver...
So let's ban booze or sue anyone who makes it!.oh wait we tried that once already.
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Old October 10, 2017, 10:00 PM   #10
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How does the Brady bunch have standing in this to sue?
I don't know, but possibly the same way they got standing to sue the gunshop where the Aurora Co ,movie shooter bought his guns.

If I remember right (and please, correct me if I'm wrong, just going from memory here...) a couple (actually a husband and wife) that were on their staff lived there. So, they got standing to sue. IF any Brady bunch staff lives in Vegas or was at the concert, that might do it.

This is an interesting point, because, thanks to their track record, only an idiot, or a "true believer" (but then, I repeat myself...) would allow themselves to be used by the Brady bunch to do this.

Last time, Brady got their employees to sue, no doubt with whispered promises of helping with /covering their legal costs. Certainly, nothing in writing.

The case was tossed, and the couple got ordered to pay a fine, AND both sides legal costs. Something on the order of $60-80,000 if I remember right.

The Brady bunch hung their patsy out to dry, coughing up not one penny to help them pay their costs. Last I heard, that couple had filed bankruptcy, and had a web site begging for donations to pay their fines....

So much for honor among gun grabbers...
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Old October 10, 2017, 11:43 PM   #11
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Well, that didn't take long, did it?
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Old October 11, 2017, 12:35 AM   #12
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Quote:
The Prince Law Blog had an interesting discussion of that same subject. The short version: Who knows?
The way that I read it, the short version is: Slide-Fire's 07 FFL is likely the only thing that might save their backside and get the suit tossed.
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Old October 11, 2017, 07:22 AM   #13
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Here is a copy of the ATF Determination letter on Slide-Fire.

https://www.scribd.com/document/3606...omatic-Weapon#
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Old October 11, 2017, 08:14 AM   #14
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Im not sure if they're covered but the case will go no where.
They had an approval letter from the ATF, they were conducting legit business.

I don't see how they could possibly from any sort of coherent case.

What it does do is get them attention and probably some donations.
IANAL, but I don't think there's any such thing as an "approval letter" from the ATF. The ATF wrote a letter stating that in their opinion it's not a machine gun. That doesn't carry any legal weight and even if it did it wouldn't mean that they can't be held responsible in some other way.

I don't think they'll win this either, but they'll definitely succeed in making the manufacturer re-evaluate whether it's worth making these things.
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Old October 11, 2017, 08:57 AM   #15
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1st and foremost. I get wanting some kind of justice, closure, revenge. We have to understand lots of folks had and are having the worst days of their lives and even if they are lashing out that doesn't make them the enemy. It makes them wounded and hurt and looking for something to make sense of it all.

2nd suing any of the players SHOULD NOT be allowed standing unless they showed actual criminal intent or true negligence. I mean hey if it's found that the gun store wink wink sold him the guns knowing something was gonna happen then fine sue. If the hotel saw the rifles setup at the window then yeah have at it.....etc.

To sue the device maker is a true slippery slope. Cannot sue the firearms maker but if he hadn't had that aimpoint it would have been so much better so let's sue aimpoint or leupold. How about samsonite for having suitcases big enough to hide the guns and ammo. How about honda or Ford or whomever made the car he drove.

The point is I hope our legal system handles these kinds of suits as they should but when they come from the victims let's remember they are wounded in many ways and we have all lashed out at the insanity of something or another when we have no recourse.

As for the Brady suits......those people are manipulative and uncaring to the extreme and I suspect they will entice many folks to make poor decisions that will wound them further.
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Old October 11, 2017, 09:18 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Mississippi
I guess I'll never quite understand this angle from the anti-gunners. (Suing Firearms makers for crimes committed with their devices)
The angle is actually quite simple. The goal is to use myriad state lawsuits against Big Tobacco as a model, and force the firearms industry to make "voluntary" changes to their business practices in order to avoid further legal liability.

IIRC one of the items on the wishlist was that semi-auto rifles that accept detachable magazines would be "voluntarily" dropped from production, and FFLs would "agree" not to perform BCs on said semi-auto rifles, thus making it effectively illegal to transfer one across state lines.

The PLCAA was enacted specifically to forestall these sorts of legal actions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankenMauser
The way that I read [the Prince Law blog], the short version is: Slide-Fire's 07 FFL is likely the only thing that might save their backside and get the suit tossed.
+1. IMHO this lawsuit is cynically designed to fail for propaganda purposes.

I suspect that Brady's strategy is to rely on the spurious legal argument that the SlideFire stock is somehow not a "firearm part" pursuant to the PLCAA, and their primary goal is to find a venue with an anti-gun judge who will let them take their time publicly venting their anti-gun bile before the suit is inevitably thrown out. They will then use this "failure" as an argument in favor of repealing the PLCAA.

A likely secondary goal is to drive SlideFire out of business, wagering that no major organization such as the NRA or NSSF will come to their defense. Even if the Bradys are eventually forced to pay SlideFire's legal bills, it may be too late to save the company; IOW it may be a Pyrrhic victory for SlideFire.
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Last edited by carguychris; October 11, 2017 at 12:44 PM. Reason: correction, stuff added
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Old October 11, 2017, 09:33 AM   #17
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2nd suing any of the players SHOULD NOT be allowed standing unless they showed actual criminal intent or true negligence. I mean hey if it's found that the gun store wink wink sold him the guns knowing something was gonna happen then fine
Aren't bumpfire stocks kind of sold with a "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" in getting around laws regulating full auto firearms?
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Old October 11, 2017, 01:39 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by divil View Post
IANAL, but I don't think there's any such thing as an "approval letter" from the ATF.
Im not sure if they're actually called approval letters I'd have to go check the wording as I've collected a number of them.

However what you can do is ask the ATF a legal question or evaluate a product and they will render an opinion.. since ATF is the ones that enforce gun laws in this country I would assume their own rendered opinions would have SOME weight.

EX: The recent letter on shouldering pistol braces.. namely the sig stablizer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lohman446 View Post
Aren't bumpfire stocks kind of sold with a "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" in getting around laws regulating full auto firearms?
Who's doing the nudging and winking?
I don't recall that as ever being a marketing angle on bump stocks, trigger cranks and binary triggers.

Im not saying someone making one of those products hasn't tried to use that as a marketing ploy but I don't recall ever seeing such personally.
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Old October 11, 2017, 03:07 PM   #19
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I don't recall that as ever being a marketing angle on bump stocks, trigger cranks and binary triggers.
Not to be combative and this is an honest question because I always kind of just rolled my eyes and walked by when the sales pitch started the few times someone tried to sell me one at a show:

What was the marketing angle on them?
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Old October 11, 2017, 04:16 PM   #20
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To quote the owner of a local gunshop up here, "Turning money into noise".

Probably not the official marketing strategy.

I've had the opportnity twice to shoot actual full auto, and greatly appreciated the shooters at the range who offered to let me give it a go. If I ever do get filthy rich, I wouldn't mind indulging the resources to purchase a transferable auto rifle. Because if I was that rich, I certainly wouldn't mind burning $45 worth of ammo in a few short seconds.

But I am not wealthy, and thus have not had any interest in the bump fire stocks. That doesn't mean i disapprove of them, nor do I want them to be regulated/banned. If there is a surge in incidents involving people committing crimes with them installed on their rifle, my thought process may change.

As for Brady center suing, as committed as they have been to pushing for gun control, this does not surprise me at all. If anything, I respect that they do not back down.

Bradys lawsuit reminds me of another quote, this time from a fictional character on The Wire, Slim Charles:
"Don't matter who did what to who at this point. Fact is, we went to war, and now there aint no going back. I mean....its what war is, you know? Once you in it, you in it. If its a lie, then we fight on that lie. But we gotta fight."
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Old October 11, 2017, 04:30 PM   #21
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Lohman
Quote:
Aren't bumpfire stocks kind of sold with a "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" in getting around laws regulating full auto firearms?
Perhaps, but with the blessing of the ATF and their full knowledge of what they are.
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Old October 11, 2017, 07:34 PM   #22
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No bumpfire stocks are 100% legal. By wink wink nudge nudge I meant if the shop suspected a CRIME was about to be committed. IE I walk Into my local Gun. shop having a conversation about that sob ima gonna kill or some such or ima show them all!! Etc.

I don't mean wink wink nudge nudge I want to pretend like I have full auto for stuff and giggles.
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Old October 11, 2017, 07:36 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by JoeSixpack
...what you can do is ask the ATF a legal question or evaluate a product and they will render an opinion.. since ATF is the ones that enforce gun laws in this country I would assume their own rendered opinions would have SOME weight....
Yes, they have weight, but they are not binding on a court.

And while immunity laws, like the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA) can offer useful protection, they do not, and can not, foreclose a lawsuit. Such laws set out certain conditions which, if satisfied, will protect a party from liability. But if there's a dispute as to whether those conditions have been satisfied, that dispute will be worked out in court in a lawsuit.
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Old October 11, 2017, 09:41 PM   #24
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Aren't bumpfire stocks kind of sold with a "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" in getting around laws regulating full auto firearms?
Kind of but not really. It designed to simulate FA fire... But its perfectly legal and I don't believe there's a thing that anyone but a majority of congressmen can do about it. It is legal, and will very likely remain so, because of the definition of "machine gun" in the NFA. Basically machine gun=more than one round per trigger pull. Slide fire still equals 1 round per 1 trigger pull... It just aids the shooter in using the rifles recoil to pull the trigger much faster. It does this with no mechanical assist.

Before we bemoan it as a legal loophole that ATF shouldn't have allowed... Remember we would have to have the same stance with bullet button ARs sold in CA to get around the detachable magazine restriction. Don't blame the loophole item. Blame the poorly written law. Doesn't matter if you are skirting the spirit of the law if you abide by the letter of it. Why doesn't it matter? Because the rule of law matters.
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Old October 12, 2017, 12:47 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Lohman446 View Post
Not to be combative and this is an honest question because I always kind of just rolled my eyes and walked by when the sales pitch started the few times someone tried to sell me one at a show:

What was the marketing angle on them?
Well Like I said my research is not exhaustive.
The Akins Accelerator which is like the grand daddy bump stock Im not sure how that was marketed, far as I know it was only for the ruger 10/22 and I didn't have a 10/22 so didn't pay much attention till after the ATF reversal.

Trigger cranks I think are usually marketed as novelties.. but I never paid much attention to them.

Binary triggers.. Im not sure, I think at least one marketing angle was on competition, I briefly looked at the franklin armory binary triggers before first getting scared at the price and then getting terrified at the product.
I could not wrap my head around a trigger that discharges when you release it I was for sure I'd end up shooting my self with the damn thing.

Not sure who all is making bump stocks, Slide fire is the only one I can name off the top of my head it came out after the Akins and I thought they were interesting but I believe the at the time price was like 200-250.. which seemed way overpriced for a hunk of plastic.
The way the thing operates seems kinda crude and I just assumed at some point it would suffer the same fate as the Akins spring or no spring.
So I only looked at them when they first came out and haven't kept up with their marketing strategy since.

I remember when they first came out it was marketed as a safer way to bump fire, it was suppose to be fun and used for recreation, possibly training.

But I went over the slide fire to see what the current message was and here's what I dug up.

So here's the video or one of the video's I remember early on
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0f7OCnrrpk
Emphasis safety, fun.
Here's a more recent one again emphasis fun/recreation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI3occOYH7g

But than we come across this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCCT8JtwQeI
Eh.. thinly cryptic.. This might play into your wink/nod marketing.

Lastly we have a video for their belt fed AR, completely solution with a belt fed modified upper and a bump stock.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC3nsxeMsBY
Well.. What I can I see this one quite literally says simulated full auto and no tax stamp..

So maybe there is something to your point.. at least in some instances.
I guess I have not paid enough attention to recent marketing on these things.

Still originally at least the message was clear it was for fun/recreation not try and skirt any sort of law.

And if you look what people was using them for that's exactly what they're being used for.. fun.. recreation.
Far as I know the vegas shooter is the first one to use a bump stock in a crime.

He did so with tremendous success, But than again I think everyone can agree his planing was methodical.. bump stocks or no Im sure his shooting spree would have been devastating.

Even the gun grabbers like Di-Fi are dumbfounded on how they could have stopped this particular incident.

P.S I See they've been busy and came out with a 10/22 stock now that's something I wouldn't mind having and I could afford to feed it.

22lr is fun to shoot quick.
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