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Old December 14, 2017, 06:19 PM   #26
FireForged
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can you point to some case law where a person authorized to use deadly force received some sort of punitive action over their initial shot placement. I don't mean shooting a badguy when he is no longer a threat but rather some sort of negative result caused by their shot placement specifically.
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Old December 14, 2017, 09:40 PM   #27
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There is a "zipper" technique where you draw and shoot your way up the torso. I usually practice it fro 3 to 10 yards. You want to get the pistol out and a round on the target ASAP, think snap shot center mass. Second and third shots ideally are strung vertically up the torso so if you need too you hopefully can come back down and try to put shot four in the head.

It is all about being fast and working your way up the torso. You should be training with the expectation that 1 or 2 shots may not be sufficient to stop the threat.
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Old December 15, 2017, 06:31 AM   #28
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"There is a "zipper" technique where you draw and shoot your way up the torso. I usually practice it fro 3 to 10 yards. You want to get the pistol out and a round on the target ASAP, think snap shot center mass. Second and third shots ideally are strung vertically up the torso so if you need too you hopefully can come back down and try to put shot four in the head.

It is all about being fast and working your way up the torso. You should be training with the expectation that 1 or 2 shots may not be sufficient to stop the threat."

This is what I taught my Daughter for close range use. Just center the body and sling lead as the muzzle rises. Once the gun is out and firing, don't stop until the target is down or you run dry.
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Old December 15, 2017, 08:17 AM   #29
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My Thoughts:

If you have ever been hunting or watched hunting shows, its customary to shoot the heart lung area. It kills the animal, but doesnt always stop it. It can and often does run 100 or more yards before going down.

If you have ever been in a been hit hard in the stomach, you know that it stops you from doing what ever you were doing. How much harder is a stomach shot vs. fist to the stomach.

The goal is not to kill the attacker but stop him from presenting a threat. And stop shooting when that threat no longer exist, anything further isnt self defense.

Two Handed Shooting: Find if you have distance. But most, a huge majority of self defense shooting done at 3 yards or less. The lady who runs the WY State Crime lab often helps with my self defense class tells us the 95+%, from her training and experience is about 5-6 feet.

Presenting the firearm to eye level requires extending the firearm to the point it can be deflected or worse taken.

In my 20 years in LE I had to use my service revolver many times, in controling suspects, building searches, etc etc. Thanking back the only time I remember using two hands is while at the range. You always have something else in the other hand, a flashlight, mirror, door knob, ticket book, and the list is endless.

In self defense it may be your child, wife, or any other person or object you would rather pull behind you to safety or out of the way while presenting your handgun.

I have no problem with two handed shooting but in self defense, I personal think that one handed shooting practice is critical. Not only that, but equal time should be spent training strong and weak hands.
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Old December 15, 2017, 10:51 AM   #30
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I would not bet my life on making a head shot. Paper and steel targets are one thing, but an actual moving human head is another thing entirely.

I have never heard it called the "zipper" technique, but the idea of starting around the pelvic region and working your way up is interesting. It's success, it seems to me, would rely on getting shots off fairly quickly. I will have to give it a try at the range.
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Old December 15, 2017, 11:12 AM   #31
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In the late 1930's my Dad's boss had occasion to shoot an armed robber. He just kept pulling the trigger as the gun climbed; belly, chest, head. Doubt he called it a zipper, though.

Some "expert" once opined that a first fast shot in any direction, hit or miss, would distract the opponent so followup shot(s) could be more deliberately aimed. Robert Heinlein agreed. But Bill Jordan said "What could be more disconcerting than a .357 in the belly button?"

Center of mass. This isn't a B Western main street showdown, the center of AVAILABLE mass might not be the vital area you would like to hit to end the attack. Shoot what you can see.
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Old December 15, 2017, 01:53 PM   #32
Don P
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I would not bet my life on making a head shot. Paper and steel targets are one thing,
I concur about the head shot. I see shooters in a hurry after the buzzer goes off at a match miss targets that are 8 feet away
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Old December 15, 2017, 02:03 PM   #33
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Two to the chest, one to the head.. This is pretty famous. You've seen it movies. Lately its come up in conversation between me and a friend of mine who is a retired federal agent


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozambique_Drill
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Old December 15, 2017, 02:21 PM   #34
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The goal is not to kill the attacker but stop him from presenting a threat. And stop shooting when that threat no longer exist, anything further isnt self defense.
It is very, very important to understand and remember that.

Quote:
But most, a huge majority of self defense shooting done at 3 yards or less.
Yet you see many people at the range shooting at stationary targets 7 yards away.

Think about it: if someone charge from "Tueller distance", he will not be 7 yards away by the time the defender has drawn and started firing.

Nor will he be stationary.

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I would strongly recommend getting some additional training at a Basic Defensive Pistol course near you.
That is excellent advice!

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On shot placement, it is important to remember that the actual target you are trying to hit isn't visible to the naked eye.
Bingo! The parts of the body that must be hit to effect a physical stop timely are small, hidden within the opaque envelope of the attacker's body, and moving very fast.
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Old December 15, 2017, 02:42 PM   #35
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Does any major law enforcement agency indicate anything but center of mass shots are appropriate with a handgun? Ok, looking it up at least the LAPD allowed for a shifting of target, to the head, after failure to stop.

Sorry at this point I am going to follow the lead of the major law enforcement agencies. Easiest "procedure" to propose a defense for.
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Old December 15, 2017, 03:00 PM   #36
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Does any major law enforcement agency indicate anything but center of mass shots are appropriate with a handgun?
What do you mean by "appropriate"?

Law enfacement and other trainers tell us that, to stop a moving aggressor timely, shooting repeated shots rapidly at the upper cast area is the most effective strategy--if that is possible.

Should that area be hidden, one cannot do that.

There are other things to consider if it turns out that the aggressor is wearing body armor.
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Old December 15, 2017, 03:17 PM   #37
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Quote:
What do you mean by "appropriate"?
Let me rephrase slightly. I feel it is most easily defended to follow "standard" operating procedure of major or local law enforcement agencies. If these agencies advocate initial shots to center of mass (when possible) I believe that it the appropriate procedure for individuals to plan on.

Because I believe this is the standing policy I think coming up with a different individual policy, especially for the first shots fired, opens one up to undue liability.
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Old December 15, 2017, 03:37 PM   #38
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I feel it is most easily defended to follow "standard" operating procedure of major or local law enforcement agencies. If these agencies advocate initial shots to center of mass (when possible) I believe that it the appropriate procedure for individuals to plan on.

Because I believe this is the standing policy I think coming up with a different individual policy, especially for the first shots fired, opens one up to undue liability.
Realistically speaking, I do not think that there is any kind of "standard" operating procedure regarding initial shots, or that any "individual policy" could lead to any kind of "liability"--provided that the defender had in fact been in a position that did involve the lawful use of deadly force for self defense.

Remember, the defender is not looking at area on a stationary target at the range.

The key words that pertain to the lawful use of deadly force include immediate necessity; the opportunity and ability of the attacker; and jeopardy.

Under conditions that would involve those factors, the defender will only be able to shoot very rapidly, relying upon training, to try to hit the attacker somewhere as quickly as possible, a many times as possible, and no more.

There will be no time for choosing "policy".

The purpose of targeting the upper chest area is not to shoot any particular part of the body first. It is to maximize the likelihood of hitting timely and effectively.

It is most unlikely that anyone evaluating an incident after the fact will be able to draw any conclusions about how the defender aimed his or her "first shots fired".
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Old December 15, 2017, 09:15 PM   #39
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Let me rephrase slightly. I feel it is most easily defended to follow "standard" operating procedure of major or local law enforcement agencies. If these agencies advocate initial shots to center of mass (when possible) I believe that it the appropriate procedure for individuals to plan on.

Because I believe this is the standing policy I think coming up with a different individual policy, especially for the first shots fired, opens one up to undue liability.
I think it is important to have a good understanding about use of force law but I think a good many people have their priorities a little mixed up. I will focus my efforts on the "fight".. not the potential post event courtroom drama.
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Old December 15, 2017, 10:12 PM   #40
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In a real life situation you should move, move abruptly and move toward cover as you fire. Try that at the range.
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Old December 16, 2017, 12:14 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Dranrab View Post
In a real life situation you should move, move abruptly and move toward cover as you fire. Try that at the range.
I have, and it was a real eye opener. The target does not lie. The holes on paper did not match the number of times I pulled the trigger.
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Old December 16, 2017, 03:15 AM   #42
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See if you can look at a more or less life-sized illustration of the internal organs of the human body, front/back/side. Quite the eye-opener. So you can see between the nipples has a lot of good aiming points, organ-rich?

Always shoot from eye level, and shoot twice, the good old double tap, two hands, two shots, if you cannot? Do something else! This is really forgiving when have more than one bad guy.

Remember guns are not the only answer to close quarters attack/defence! A punch to the throat is somewhat disconcerting. A palm strike, upwards, to the nose? That's kind of good too! A sidekick with the foot, to just under the knee! Ouch.
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Old December 16, 2017, 10:22 AM   #43
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Always shoot from eye level, and shoot twice,...
I know of no trainers who would advise that unless it were crystal clear that those two shots had sufficed.

Quote:
A punch to the throat is somewhat disconcerting. ....A sidekick with the foot,....
If it comes to that, the defender is in very serious trouble.
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Old December 16, 2017, 01:01 PM   #44
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I once saw some training video stating that if an attacker is advancing (rushing you with a knife, etc.) that shots to the pelvic area will be more effective than shots to the chest. The reasoning being that a person running is leaning out over his center of gravity, and is more likely to continue to run through the gunfire, than someone shot low who is more likely to double over and stop the advance.

The chest shot may be more deadly, but less immediately effective when stopping an advancing threat. It sounded reasonable, anyway. I also asked my former LE shooting instructor and he said to keep it simple and shoot for center-of-mass regardless, because if you're being charged by an attacker you won't be thinking about physics. Just shoot and "get off the X"

That last step is really tough. I've tried various simulations and airsoft exercises, and when you're startled or under a threat, the tendency is to freeze in place rather than move to the side.
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Old December 16, 2017, 04:03 PM   #45
Bartholomew Roberts
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We've discussed targeting the pelvis a few dozen times now. For example: https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=416452
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Old December 16, 2017, 06:36 PM   #46
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A bud from work, his Son was one of those Special Ops guys deployed to Africa. Killing Kony's (lord's resistance army) in deep dark Africa. These were not nice people, Kony's had fun chopping off arms or legs off little children, just to see them crawl.

Anyway, Son took a 1911 in 45 ACP to Africa. The all metal 1911 held up better than a plastic pistol on a fore hand or back hand stroke against a slow, or stupid Kony. On a non compliant Kony (dangerous as a rattlesnake) Son would shoot them off center, shoulder area, to get them spinning. There was always the possibility the Kony had body armor, so ensure there would be no fight left, he would hit them in the head on the way down.
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Old December 17, 2017, 05:01 PM   #47
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Anyway, Son took a 1911 in 45 ACP to Africa.
Assuming Son had the training afforded persons in his claimed line of work, he was resistant to the training, or maybe just an idiot, if he was hunting down crazed bad guys with a pistol instead of a long gun.
Quote:
On a non compliant Kony (dangerous as a rattlesnake) Son would shoot them off center, shoulder area, to get them spinning.
Even an off-center hit from a 12ga or a 50BMG hit doesn't apply enough force to spin a person around. Mythbusters did a test where they shot a human analogue dummy with a steel armor plate in the chest at point-blank range with a .50BMG rifle to see if it would be knocked backwards. The bullet was stopped in the dummy but even then, the dummy was not knocked backwards by any significant amount.

It could be that being hit off-center predisposes a person to voluntarily or reflexively spin (although I haven't noticed that effect is common in the many shooting videos I've watched), but it's not the actual force of the hit moving the person around.

It seems possible that when Son tells a story, the impact of the story could be more important than getting the details exactly right.
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Old December 17, 2017, 05:30 PM   #48
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It seems possible that when Son tells a story, the impact of the story could be more important than getting the details exactly right.
In other words, never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
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Old December 19, 2017, 10:01 PM   #49
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I have had a CWP for years and have been re-evaluating shot placement. I have a change of outlook on how I would treat an actual life threatening situation. My thoughts in the pass was to fire in the pelvic area to stop advancement with out actual killing the perpetrator. I now think I should make my first shots in the center mass upper chest area "Heart" then my second shots to the eye nose area. I have made some life size targets to use on my pistol range and was going to practice chest head shots only. I would like some thoughts on distance to target for practice for actual self defense scenario. Any input can possibly be useful to me so do not hesitate to speak your thoughts. I am a retired firefighter and ran rescue for 17 years so the outcome of a shoot out will not effect me I have seen the body inside outwards blood and guts do not bother me. I would like to thank everyone in advance for your participate in this thread.
Good idea to mozambique your attacker. Two to the center of chest, and then one to the center of the face. He will go down and out immediately.
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Old December 20, 2017, 10:16 AM   #50
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A simple failure drill is what I taught officers in my department, Two rapid shots to the torso....center of mass....quick assessment and if necessary a third shot to the head. The first two shots should be fired as rapidly as can accurately be done to attain greatest shocking value to the system.
The officer is attempting to cease the life threatening situation as quickly as possible.
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