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Old July 17, 2017, 05:44 PM   #26
stephen426
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I must admit that my first reaction to this thread was that it is from someone's overactive imagination or some sick fantasy. Then I remembered that a home invasion happened in the community adjacent to the one I live in. I live in a very good part of Miami, FL and police response time is 5 minutes tops. The community is gated, but all you have to do is wave and the guard opens the gate. There are some communities that the guard will actually call the home the visitor is going to visit for a confirmation before letting them in.

While I know it is easy to say one person needs to escape regardless of what happens to anyone else, there is no way in heck I would leave my girls with a home invader. One is 3 and the other is 7 so even if they got out of the house, their chances of knowing what to do next isn't good. With young kids, I also need to have my firearms locked up. I have a quick access pistol safe next to the bed. I have an AR-15 (loaded mag but unchambered) and a shotgun (loaded but not chambered) nearby as well. I am a fairly good shot and participate in "practical" shooting, but I am not sure I could do anything if someone had a gun to my child's head. I guess you will never know until it happens (and hopefully it never happens to any of us).

The scenario could be highly varied, but the home invasion that took place was believed to be a crime of opportunity. The intruders went into an open garage and grabbed the home owner's child. They then marched the parents around the house collecting valuables before leaving. I believe that one of them kept the kid at gun-point while the other marched one parent around the house.

Prevention is obviously better than cure in most cases. I installed a CCTV system around the house. I also added coded remote garage door opener so I can close the garage door without carrying a remote with me. I suggest using the alarm system even when home. We have a panic code and a panic codeword set up in case of duress.

I really hate to imagine what could happen, but I guess it is better to have a plan and be prepared for nothing than to have no plan and have the worst happen.
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Old July 17, 2017, 05:59 PM   #27
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There is a new movie coming out called "Kidnap" starring Hallie Berry. It involves a kidnapping at a park where the child is seen being abducted. I admit that I am a bit of a "helicopter" parent and I always carry outside the house (and often while I am in the house). If anyone has seen the trailer to the movie, Hallie Berry tries to stop the car but it speeds off. She gives chase, but loses the car. One critical mistake is that she drops her phone before giving chase so she can't call the police.

A few take aways are to stay focused on your children rather than having your face buried in your phone or in a book. Keep your phone ON your person rather than something that can be snatched or dropped. Mine is always on my belt. Stay close enough that you would be able to act. I a sure most parent would be very hesitant to take a shot that could endanger their child. If a very clean shot presented itself, I would consider it. I think it would be much easier to try and disable the vehicle by shooting the wheels or radiator. Both shots would be much safer than shooting into the passenger compartment. Better to helicopter parent than be sorry.

My kids are a bit young still, but when they are old enough to have a phone, I will have the "Find My iPhone" app active on their phones. I also plan on having tracking devices on their cars when they are old enough to drive. I am not "high-profile" by any means so I'm not much of a target, but I'm not "poor" either. I've heard of high-profile people actually getting tracking devices implanted into their children, especially in South and Central America where kidnappings are more common.
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Old July 17, 2017, 08:58 PM   #28
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a person can fantasize about situational awareness all they want and although paying attention is a good idea, you are not likely to ever truly be situationally aware if you are working alone. Sometimes the fight is just going to happen no matter if you are hyper vigilant about your surroundings or not. Speaking for myself, I am not likely to ever jump in the middle of anything I consider to be a kidnapping when it is likely some sort of domestic issue involving an estranged parent. I can say for certain that I am not going to allow some badguy to take me anywhere. If they are going to do something to me, its going to happen now , not later.
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Old July 17, 2017, 09:27 PM   #29
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Can anybody give me some stats at which kidnappings and home invasions occur? And then out of the home invasions how many were because the person had a link to criminal activity. Finally the kidnapings, how many of those are motivated by an acquaintance (read family member) that thinks they are doing it for the betterment of the child vs. random unknown victim/suspect relation.

Here is the thing, we read about home invasions and kidnappings all the time but understand there are volumes of information that is omitted from the media story in order to maintain certain factual information that only investigators, victim and suspect are privy to. This is what keeps the integrity of an investigation and allows detectives to sift through bogus and real information.
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Old July 17, 2017, 10:02 PM   #30
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Can anybody give me some stats at which kidnappings and home invasions occur? And then out of the home invasions how many were because the person had a link to criminal activity. Finally the kidnapings, how many of those are motivated by an acquaintance (read family member) that thinks they are doing it for the betterment of the child vs. random unknown victim/suspect relation.
What would you do with the numbers?
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Old July 17, 2017, 10:17 PM   #31
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I'm insured by the Gambino family against kidnapping. Seems to work, I haven't been kidnapped in 62 years!

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Old July 17, 2017, 11:04 PM   #32
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A true "safe room" is going to have enough metal in the walls and ceiling (and possibly the floor) to, in effect, be a "Faraday Cage" and cell phone reception will be limited to non-existent.
It is possible to install a cell phone repeater which will pick up cell phone signals from inside the room and rebroadcast them from an antenna outside the room.
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Old July 18, 2017, 06:07 AM   #33
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@ OldMarksman

If you read the 2nd paragraph of my post, and read between the lines you would understand my point is home invasions and kidnappings are not so random.

I have a very good friend that in his 21 plus and counting of being an officer in a very large city and spending approximately 10 years with their gang unit had never been to a home invasion that the victim was innocent, they were all motivated by some criminal link.

The stats for kidnappings once you pull out the ones that are conducted by a known family member and the ones that are done by one human smuggling group taking the load from another group, the number of true kidnappings are so low I don't worry about it.

I worry more about true numbers, like my family being in a horrific vehicle collision. Those are real numbers that are more likely to affect my life.
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Old July 18, 2017, 06:58 AM   #34
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If you read the 2nd paragraph of my post, and read between the lines you would understand my point is home invasions and kidnappings are not so random.
And just what, pray tell, does that have to do with the question at hand?

Quote:
I have a very good friend that in his 21 plus and counting of being an officer in a very large city and spending approximately 10 years with their gang unit had never been to a home invasion that the victim was innocent, they were all motivated by some criminal link.
None of the kidnappings that have occurred around here in recent years have involved victims with "some criminal link". Shootings, yes; kidnappings, no.

Quote:
The stats for kidnappings once you pull out the ones that are conducted by a known family member and the ones that are done by one human smuggling group taking the load from another group, the number of true kidnappings are so low I don't worry about it.
I don't "worry about it" either, but but it has happened with sufficient frequency around here for the police to advise people about how to avoid it.

Do you not classify a carjacking in which the victim is forced to accompany the perp as a kidnapping?

By far the most common objective in the crimes has been a small item: an ATM card. That's whetter the vicim has been taken from the home or with the car.

Almost all of the victims were later released--with empty bank accounts. But not all.
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Old July 18, 2017, 06:58 AM   #35
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. . . Hence I carry inside and outside the home. Heck, my wife and I carry iron while having coffee in our yard. I've been on the board of our HOA for the past 7 years and we get regular updates from our alderman and beat cops . . . I live in what most people would think as a semi-affluent development but crap beyond the idiot neighbor shooting the ducks in our pond with an air pistol or someone owning one too many dogs does happen.

Just last month we had one of the houses in the development raided by the FBI & local LE on a drug bust. It was a serious event - the Feebs were involved.

. . . and that is exactly the thing . . . you have no idea who your neighbors are, even if you chat with them on a regular basis or even have them over for a BBQ every now and then.

Best tactic . . . have a gun on your body. The only time I don't have one on is in the shower, sleeping, working out at the health club or at some kind of guberment building. Not kidding y'all.
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Old July 18, 2017, 07:23 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by DPI7800 View Post
I have a very good friend that in his 21 plus and counting of being an officer in a very large city and spending approximately 10 years with their gang unit had never been to a home invasion that the victim was innocent, they were all motivated by some criminal link.
Ya I very much doubt that.

I knew a guy who went to prison for home invasion type robberies, him and his crew use to target rich people, tie them up, make them open their safes, etc.

He's dead now.. got infection in his foot in prison (diabetic)
He wasn't targeting drug dealers he was targeting the upper class.

The dude was a smooth talker, and a people person, you would never have known he was into something like that by talking to him.
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Old July 18, 2017, 08:45 AM   #37
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I know many people suggest (and do) carry while at home. I was thinking that if there were a home invasion, it would be in the dead of night while your piece was in a stand next to you.

My thought was that if someone had gained entry, and had already had a loved one at gunpoint--Not you--would you obey a gunman or try to escape?--Escape rather than attacking because self-preservation would kick in and abductors would massacre everyone. Escaping allows the abductors to 'safely retreat' and try again some other day, some easier target.

Also, if it happened the other way around, and they had the drop on YOU (yes your gun is in the nightstand, but still) -- do you teach your loved ones to run off and not obey a gunman who has YOU?
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Old July 18, 2017, 09:01 AM   #38
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I was thinking that if there were a home invasion, it would be in the dead of night while your piece was in a stand next to you.
That's the most common fantasy. And it does happen.

But what do you do if you have not yet retired to bed?

Most burglaries occur during the day time. I would assume that that's because no one is usually home at that time.

But we have had three here in town with the past few years that did occur during they time in which the victims were at home. In two of them, the occupants were tied up and forced to reveal the location of valuables. The people were not taken. In another, the resident returned home while the crime was in progress. She was shot dead by one of the burglars--a friend of her son.

Som why would criminals force the occupant of a home or car to come with them? The two most likely reasons, in my mind, are (1) to get the ATM card and cash therefrom, and (2) to give the perps time before the crime is reported.
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Old July 18, 2017, 09:04 AM   #39
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By far the most common objective in the crimes has been a small item: an ATM card. That's whetter the vicim has been taken from the home or with the car.

The scumbags want that ATM card.

BTW: This is the 10th anniversary of the murder of a CT mother and her two daughters by home invaders. The scumbags forced the lady to withdraw money from the bank while holding her daughters and husband hostage.

Quote:
Jennifer Hawke-Petit, 48, was strangled. Her daughters, 17-year-old Hayley and 11-year-old Michaela, were tied to their beds and died of smoke inhalation. Hawke-Petit and Michaela also were sexually assaulted. Hawke-Petit's husband and the girls' father, Dr. William Petit Jr., was beaten but survived.

The killers, Joshua Komisarjevsky and Steven Hayes, are serving life in prison. They originally were sentenced to death, but Connecticut abolished capital punishment in 2012.

Komisarjevsky picked Hawke-Petit and Michaela as targets when he saw them at a grocery store. He followed them to their home, left and later returned with Hayes.


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/...id=HPCOMMDHP15

Every time an account of a home invasion is posted on a message board some expert claims the two parties had to know each other.
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Old July 18, 2017, 09:26 AM   #40
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That's the most common fantasy. And it does happen. But what do you do if you have not yet retired to bed?
Ok, all I'm trying to say is after someone has the drop on you, any time. Do you comply?

They have a gun drawn on you, or a loved one.

Yes you can immediately turn it into a gunfight, one option. I (most likely) wouldn't. If being mugged sometimes the best option is to just hand over the wallet, then run. Even if carrying a gun.

My thought is when an invader gives you the chance to comply, they want something other than your death right now. Running away -- disrupting the plan non violently, gives them an easy non violent out too. If I was held, would I want my loved ones to comply?

At the mercy of bad guys are our chances 50/50?

(edited to add 'most likely' there could be situations where it is better)
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Old July 18, 2017, 09:33 AM   #41
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Ok, all I'm trying to say is after someone has the drop on you, any time. Do you comply?
That is something that you will have to decide. If all indications are that they are herding people into the back to start shooing, or getting ready to abscond with a family member, compliance may not be a good idea at all.

Of course, you would be a whole lot better served to prevent someone from getting the drop on you in the first place. That's my strategy.
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Old July 18, 2017, 11:01 AM   #42
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Compliance at this moment does not necessarily indicate long term compliance. In some circumstances compliance, at least in the very short term, is necessary to get the aggressor to let his or her guard down. There is also an assessment of motive. A mugger is likely wanting property (of little value on me) for some reason. It is unlikely he wants to get involved in a murder / assault investigation. Someone at your door, forcing his or her way into the house, or kidnapping you is an entirely different situation.
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Old July 18, 2017, 11:35 AM   #43
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Once someone ties you up though, there is nearly zero chance of getting away.
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Old July 18, 2017, 11:55 AM   #44
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You use protective devices when working, driving, and boating. I wear my gun for the same reason, just in case it's needed. My wife and I have a plan in case of home invasion, what to do if one of us is being held as a hostage or shield, and what to do in the event of a car jacking. We have a place to go and a place to gather if we have to get away from a situation in a hurry. Safe rooms have communications built in. The extra cell phones are in case you have to use the escape route and let the police know what your location is.

Compliance provides an invader a sense of power and control. Denying him that compliance can do one of a few things. He can question his ability to complete his plan, he can become louder and more aggressive, or he might become violent. The confusion at the first sign of non-compliance can be used as a tool to gain the upper hand. Doing something completely unexpected - like dropping from a heart attack or fainting - can provide a couple of seconds to get the attacker. If the attackers are "professionals" you will know right away. It is difficult to rattle or confuse a professional. You are likely going to die anyway so you just work at getting someone away or getting word out to the police or anyone.
There will always be events that you simply can't come out on top. I just feel I would like to be prepared for what ever comes. That is why I get training, practice what I learn, and use the knowledge to plan to survive. Lke they say; "failure to plan is planning to fail."
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Old July 18, 2017, 12:35 PM   #45
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Personally, the only time my gun is not on my person is if I'm in bed, or the shower. Even then it's at arms reach.
Quote:
Do I have a loaded gun near me while at home? Yes, within 20 feet or so, one downstairs and two upstairs. But carry continuously? Nope, not while I'm at home.
The only difference between the original statement and the reply is that the person who replied finds on-body carry inconvenient and has both a home layout and sufficient mobility to assume that he will reach a pistol soon enough to make a difference. I wish we didn't ridicule other gun owners for their choices when they are so subtly different than our own, and especially when we don't know the full situation of health, mobility, family, economics, and so on.

Quote:
Ok, all I'm trying to say is after someone has the drop on you, any time. Do you comply?
One reply to this was to consider all the circumstances, and one element that should be considered is that the production of a firearm from a concealed location may well still effect an element of surprise to an assailant. There is going to be a short but measurable period of time that it takes the BG to recognize they are now seeing a weapon, to decide how to respond, and to act. It might be just the break you need to have a fighting chance in such a dire situation, and at that point a fighting chance is the only chance you have left. The harder and more decisively you press that slim chance, the more you can turn the odds in a favorable direction.

Last edited by TailGator; July 18, 2017 at 12:42 PM.
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Old July 18, 2017, 12:47 PM   #46
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The only difference between the original statement and the reply is that the person who replied finds on-body carry inconvenient and has both a home layout and sufficient mobility to assume that he will reach a pistol soon enough to make a difference.
An perhaps the respondent is less concerned about leaving a lethal weapon where it may be accessed by others.

Personally. I want my firearm under my control, and I prefer to keep it a lot closer than "Tueller distance" and where no intruder can get between me and my gun.

Inconvenient? Well, I do not have to put it on and take it off every time I leave the house and return.
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Old July 20, 2017, 04:07 PM   #47
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Keep your awareness at a high level, and start shooting at the first opportunity, and don't stop until you are out of ammo or the threat is neutralized. I'm not going easy.
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Old July 20, 2017, 05:40 PM   #48
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MG stated
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Once someone ties you up though, there is nearly zero chance of getting away.
If it's a SF group I'd agree but for the 99% untrained home invader, I'll disagree.
Look at how your tied up, ropes and lamp cords, zip ties or 2 pair of good cuffs + shackles?
1 guy or a pro team?
Duct tape or pro gags and hoods?

There are many tricks to make an invaders methods less effective, some are in books, many / most are not.
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Old July 20, 2017, 06:24 PM   #49
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I don't wanna depend on my attackers ineptitude at tying knots.. I like my odds better before being tied up regardless.
You're probably not gonna know how they're gonna secure you until you've already surrendered.
Just like you're not likely to know their motives or plans for you either.

At the very least the odds of them finding and taking any weapon you have on you is extremely high.

Which would you rather do, try to sly your way out later which may not even work or fight while you're still in control of your self, and are probably armed.

Now obviously this is all moot if they somehow incapacitated you already.
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Old July 20, 2017, 08:18 PM   #50
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Best tactics in a kidnapping?
The "best tactic" is to avoid being taken at all costs.

As someone once said, "if you ain't cheating, you ain't winning."

Remember, ... if one or more strangers are forcibly trying to take you somewhere you don't want to go, that makes you the 'good guy'.

You do what you have to do, even if it means getting your hands dirty, or bloodied.
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