1911 wont go into battery

[Koda94]

NIB unfired, commander sized slide. Get it home and checking it out and racking the slide it stopped short going into battery. (see pic). Didn't do it all the time... but got it to repeat.

field stripped and thoroughly cleaned it and lubed it. Racked it several times, could feel the sticky spot but it went into battery. Racked it real slow to find it, and did... stuck. Tapped the slide with hand and it went home but another time it would not. Racked it a bunch of times fast and no problems... the clean and lube seemed to help... but it bothered me.

Closer examination saw wear at the barrel lugs to slide. Racked it slow to find the spot... it seems like its hanging up on the barrel lugs... like the forward barrel lug is catching on the rearward slide lug cutout as it rises up into battery. A slight push down on the barrel and it returns home. Turned the gun upside down to let gravity let the barrel lugs catch the slide and slowly racked the slide and replicated that spot.
took the barrel out and held a straight edge to the lugs, they are a tiny bit higher than the top of the barrel chamber area.

Is this normal and will break in, or is this something to send in for warranty repair?

[Skadoosh]

Ejector bent?

[rwilson452]

It sounds like a send back. But call the mfg first.

a couple of things you can check.

Remove the slide and barrel. With the barrel bushing out. with the slide upside down put the barrel in the slide in such a manner that the barrel would be in the same position as when the barrel/ slide is ejecting the case. Tilt the slide up until the barrel slides back to the in battery position. the lugs should lock up. if it doesn't you have an issue with the slide / barrel lock up. if that is OK, do it again with the barrel bushing in place. You should now have a good idea as to the problem when you call the MFG.

[JeepHammer]

Unfired? No one has fired it enough to take the sharp edges, and maybe burrs, off the lock up lugs yet.
Might also check the chamber extension top rear of barrel, sometimes new snags sliding home.

[Unclenick]

It may break in, but the locking lugs can be battered before you get there, raising edge burrs. A standard procedure in a reliability package is to break the edges on the locking lugs with a scraper, in effect giving them a small chamfer. Same with the barrel lugs if they are sharp. This helps the lugs funnel into place together.

It could also be the barrel link is too short. If it's longer, the barrel locking lugs will be a little further to the rear at the moment they meet the slide. However, you need to be sure a longer lug doesn't drive the barrel hard up against the floor of the slide lug recesses. That could bend or damage the assemby pin on the slide stop or the barrel link or peen the pin holes in either the frame or link lugs oblong. So this is one of those fitting things that you want someone familiar with working on 1911's to help you with if you aren't already.

[Koda94]

Originally Posted by rwilson452

It sounds like a send back. But call the mfg first.

a couple of things you can check.

Remove the slide and barrel. With the barrel bushing out. with the slide upside down put the barrel in the slide in such a manner that the barrel would be in the same position as when the barrel/ slide is ejecting the case. Tilt the slide up until the barrel slides back to the in battery position. the lugs should lock up. if it doesn't you have an issue with the slide / barrel lock up. if that is OK, do it again with the barrel bushing in place. You should now have a good idea as to the problem when you call the MFG.

this is a good test. I can barely hear the lugs catching but it slides into place. My feeling is that if this is the problem, its very minimal and breaking in as I work the action exploring this over and over again.

[Koda94]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

It may break in, but the locking lugs can be battered before you get there, raising edge burrs. A standard procedure in a reliability package is to break the edges on the locking lugs with a scraper, in effect giving them a small chamfer. Same with the barrel lugs if they are sharp. This helps the lugs funnel into place together.

It could also be the barrel link is too short. If it's longer, the barrel locking lugs will be a little further to the rear at the moment they meet the slide. However, you need to be sure a longer lug doesn't drive the barrel hard up against the floor of the slide lug recesses. That could bend or damage the assemby pin on the slide stop or the barrel link or peen the pin holes in either the frame or link lugs oblong. So this is one of those fitting things that you want someone familiar with working on 1911's to help you with if you aren't already.

I have a reputable 1911 gunsmith i'm a customer with... I've never heard of a reliability package is this something he would know? I think the locking lugs is the problem but its very minor. In fact now I cant replicate the problem even if I tried unless I hold the gun upside down while slowly racking the slide.

I'm not certain I need to send this in under warranty, especially since its still unfired. I might get a chance to go to the range next weekend...

[Koda94]

here are some detail pics of the lugs on the slide and barrel...

[HiBC]

I'm not suggesting you start cutting any steel,I'm just giving you some ideas.

Under the pressure of firing,the rear faces of the slide locking lugs bear on the front faces of the barrel locking lugs.
The barrel hood bears on the breech face as the slide moves forward into battery.
A hood that is too long (tight) might not allow the lugs to engage.(easily)
Don't forget,a barrel is generally factory chambered based on the supplied hood length. If you shorten a hood .005,you just shortened the chamber headspace .005

I might expect to find this condition fitting a match barrel (that ordinarily has extra steel for fitting).

Anything is possible,but I would not expect this to occur in a factory gun.

Sharp corners on the locking lugs,both slide and barrel,are best lightly broken.
Don't get carried away,but total lockup engagement is someplace around .055.

.003 radius makes it not a sharp corner. .005 off the lugs and the slide edges leaves .045 in contact at lockup. You aren.t losing anything at that point...but if you go to .010 or .015 chamfers...you get down to only .025 locking engagement surface. Its a light corner break that you want.

the 1911 is a pretty robust design...there are a lot of running.shooting 1911's that aren't quite right.

The ones that are right,shoot better,longer.

The Kuhnausen manuals discuss timing and refer to the Sheumann Barrels Timing kit.(No longer offered by Scheumann.)

However,at the Scheumann Barrels site is some reference technical documentation.

This link will take you to an explanation of the timing events.

Generally,the barrel underlug rear face impacting the vertical impact face of the receiver stops the barrels rearward movement. This rearward movement is translated into the link down movement by the arc of the link.

If things are right,the barrel has dropped far enough there is clearance between the slide and the barrel in the lug area at this point.Your corner interference might indicate the timing needs work.

The document at Scheumann's is an excellent explanation.

Once again,hold off on the files and Dremel,please. But sometimes some steel needs to come off rear face of the barrel underlug..but then realize if you do,that little step you really need from the feed ramp to the barrel throat will be reduced.
Link length certainly enters into the equation...but you do not want the link to be what controls the barrel's rearward movement.That breaks links.
And the link must be the correct length to position the barrel up into the locking lug battery,but its NOT what holds the barrel up in lock up.Arbitrarily putting in a longer link,for example,ruins the correct lockup of the slide stop to underlug.
A short link will likely result in interference between the slide stop pin and the barrel underlug radius. BTW,that barrel underlug radius must be profiled correctly to not bind on the slidestop at linkdown.

What you want is the two feet of the barrel underlug resting on the slide stop pin.That is what holds the barrel in battery,not the link.

And at this point,the barrel/slide lugs should be at full depth contact. I use Prussian blue to verify the barrel and slide fully engage..

And.. that should put the firing pin in the center of the barrel.

Every thing you adjust will effect the whole chain of events.

http://www.schuemann.com/Portals/0/D...911_Timing.pdf

[Koda94]

Originally Posted by HiBC

I'm not suggesting you start cutting any steel,I'm just giving you some ideas.

Under the pressure of firing,the rear faces of the slide locking lugs bear on the front faces of the barrel locking lugs.
The barrel hood bears on the breech face as the slide moves forward into battery.
A hood that is too long (tight) might not allow the lugs to engage.

I might expect to find this condition fitting a match barrel (that ordinarily has extra steel for fitting).

Anything is possible,but I would not expect this to occur in a factory gun.

Sharp corners on the locking lugs,both slide and barrel,are best lightly broken.
Don't get carried away,but total lockup engagement is someplace around .055.

.003 radius makes it not a sharp corner. .005 off the lugs and the slide leaves .045 in contact at lockup. You aren.t losing anything at that point...but if you go to .010 or .015 chamfers...you get down to only .025 locking engagement surface. Its a light corner break that you want.

the 1911 is a pretty robust design...there are a lot of running.shooting 1911's that aren't quite right.

The ones that are right,shoot better,longer.

The Kuhnausen manuals discuss timing and refer to the Sheumann Barrels Timing kit.(No longer offered by Scheumann.

However,at the Scheumann Barrels site is some reference technical documentation.

This link will take you to an explanation of the timing events.

Generally,the barrel underlug rear face impacting the vertical impact face of the receiver stops the barrels rearward movement. This rearward movement is translated into the link down movement by the arc of the link.

If things are right,the barrel has dropped far enough there is clearance between the slide and the barrel in the lug area at this point.

The document at Scheumann's is an excellent explanation

It is a NM barrel actually...

the sharp corners might be the issue but I wont be doing any work myself, am not a gunsmith. I do have a reputable 1911 gunsmith available near me who does great work but dont want to pay him if this is an expensive warranty issue.

So I'm trying to figure out if I should shoot it first before deciding any action.... Ive racked the slide by hand enough now the problem is gone right side up, but is still barely there when racking slowly upside down. I'm thinking I should take it to the range and see how it does, why fix it if it doesn't malfunction. ?

[ms6852]

Like Rwilson said, call the manufacturer and send it back, or email the pic and describe the issue, regardless this handgun would not have passed a reliable qc check.

[HiBC]

why fix it if it doesn't malfunction. ?

I'd agree with not fixing a problem that does not exist.
1911's may very well run when they have problems.

A 1911,or most any semi-auto,is more dynamic in firing than many of us realize. Hand cycling does not tell the whole story.

The interference you feel is steel trying to go through steel. It may well be "break in" . A requirement for a 1911 "break in" is sort of an expectation. It translates to lack of attention to detail. A good pistol smith does not send crunching guns out the door telling his customer to break it in.
A good pistolsmith sends them out like silk.
But most pistols are a collection of parts that have been assembled,put in a box,and sold.And they are not silk.

If you put magic marker on the top of your barrel from the lugs to the hood,if the slide is wearing the marker off,what does it say about the timing?

Ideally,there is ,as Scheumann specifies,...(I don't recall exactly) maybe .012 clearance barrel to slide at link down,which is when the barrel underlug contacts the frame,with a spring inserted under the barrel loading it up into the slide.(no recoil spring in place.)

In your pictures,I see scuff marks across the barrel locking lugs and on the inside of the slide.Those are not supposed to rub together. When they do,the locking lugs clash and batter the corners I can see evidence the corners have battered a bit.
Your straight edge on top of the barrel lugs...that clearance is interesting. If your firing pin is centered with the bore,I would not worry about it.
If the existing link allows the proper lockup of the barrel feet on the slide stop,
Its the right link.

Based on parts inspection vs blueprint,I'd make sure the vertical impact face in the frame bridge was spec. Sometimes,they have too much steel(slidestop pin to vertical impact surface)

I'd make sure there was a chamfer at the top of that vertical impact surface,because usually there is a radius at the junction of the barrel underlug and the barrel.Corner condition interference is not unusual.

If the frame is spec,taking a little off the rear impact surface of the barrel lug will result in slightly more rearward barrel travel,which means the link will pull the barrel down a bit more.

You will lose that distance off the ramp to barrel throat step,be careful.

And you don't want the barrel to contact the saddle before the vertical impactesurface,or you will break links.

[T. O'Heir]

"...something to send in for warranty repair..." Yep. BNIB and it doesn't work properly.
"...fired it enough to take the sharp edges..." Anything like that is done in the factory. There's no such thing as shooting it to 'finish' it.

[44 AMP]

Racked it real slow to find it, and did... stuck...... Racked it a bunch of times fast and no problems...

Racked it a bunch of times fast and no problems..

Racked it a bunch of times fast and no problems...

hmmm seems to be a pattern here...

I'm sorry, I know you are genuinely concerned, but how is this different from the old joke where the guy goes to the doctor and says "Doc, it hurts when I do this..." and the Doc says "then don't do that!"

Seriously. if you want to do a proper function check, you need dummy rounds. NOT snap caps. There IS a difference.

Also you need to understand that the gun needs to be checked using the proper manner of operation. Racking the slide "slow" is not proper operation. LOTS of guns, including well broken in guns, some with decades or more of use can still have issues when not operated in the correct manner and speed.

I've got an older Marlin carbine. Work the lever slooowly and it will sometimes jam. Work the lever "smartly" and it never does.

Do you know how to drive a standard? (stick shift with a clutch?) I realize it's a slowly dying skill.. But, if you know how, then you know that there is a certain point when you let out the clutch that you should not stop at.

EASE out the clutch until it just engages, the car bucks and jerks. Not proper operation, and not good for the mechanism. Move smoothly through that point and with the proper engine rpms and things work properly.

your gun is new, unfired, its going to have a few "rough edges". You can get out your dremel and grind away, following the advice of internet experts and UTube pundits. (Some of them DO know what they are talking about..)

Or you can pay a professional to do it. OR you can cover everything with valve grinding compound and cycle the slide a few hundred times, then clean it up and see how it runs.

OR

you can realize that, until, and unless, you have malfunctions shooting live ammo, you don't really have a problem.

Shoot the thing, and shoot it a bit before you decide. At LEAST a couple hundred rounds. Keep track of what malfunctions you get (if any) and where they occur in the shooting. Maybe you get a few minor issues in the first 50 or 100 rounds. Maybe you get 3 in the first 50, one in the next 100, and none in the last 50 from a 200rnd break in. Maybe something different. My point is, you don't KNOW you have a problem until you have a problem during shooting.

And, don't use crap ammo to determine reliability. I'm not saying you need to use top of the line expensive premium self defense ammo to break in the gun. I'm just saying that using the cheapest stuff there is only tells you what happens when you use the cheapest stuff there is.

I would also recommend against the use of steel cased ammo. There is a lot of argument about steel case ammo, (hard on the guns, etc.) but that doesn't matter at this point, What matters is that if you shoot steel case ammo, ALL it will tell you is how well your gun handles steel cased ammo.

Shoot the gun, shoot 4 or 5 boxes of ammo through it, at least, THEN see if you have a problem, or not. Don't grind, stone, or modify any parts, until you know if something needs to be done. At this point, you don't know that.

Good Luck, and let us know your results!

[Koda94]

Actually, I wasnt using snap caps or any rounds for my tests mentioned above. But later last night I did however cycle live rounds (safely) without a problem.

Yes I know slow racking is not realistic. When I let the slide return home on its own it works fine. This is why Im thinking it just needs a little breaking in...

My hunch is it is catching but a minor isse that will break in... But im not a gunsmith and hence why I asked here to see what the collective knowledge has to say.

[4V50 Gary]

Racking it slow denies the slide the momentum it needs to lock up. Just test it at the range.