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Old April 13, 2018, 09:34 AM   #1
Areoflyer09
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22LR ARs - Tippmann M4-22/HK416D

Let me start by sharing that I haven’t been an “AR” guy. I probably won’t be able to answer every question asked and I’ll probably get terminology wrong as well. I’ve really not had a lot of love for the platform, I’ve typically preferred lever actions or bolt actions. That said, in the past few months I find myself in possession of two dedicated 22LR ARs, the Tippmann and the HK (Umarex) 416D, and I’m enjoying them a lot more than I did my last AR. Still trying to figure out what’s changed.

Over the weekend I’m hoping to be able to hit the range to test accuracy & get some quality year down pictures uploaded.

Easy enough to start with what I like/dislike about each.

Tippmann likes:
-Aluminum upper/lower, Goldilocks weight, decent factory trigger, decent factory sights, will accept most milspec parts, rails can be removed from the hand guard, 1/2x28 threads

Tippmann dislikes:
-finicky magazines, polymer handgaurd, acceptable accuracy

HK likes:
-Aluminum upper/lower, accuracy, decent trigger, magazines

HK dislikes:
-Weight, factory sights, limited customizability, sharp edges on the quad rail, non standard barrel threads, non captured take down pins

Currently I prefer the Tippmann.

The Tippmann has enough weight to feel right, rough guess would put it 1 1/2 pounds lighter than the HK. It’s much easier for both myself and my wife to handle for any length of time. The HK’s weight and quad rail make for a less pleasant experience the longer you hold it. If I decide to keep the HK, it will probably get a bi-pod.

The Tippmann has better sights and a better trigger from the factory, but the accuracy doesn’t seem to be quite as tight as he HK gives me. The accuracy is interesting, as the HK has a pencil barrel under a shroud compared to the .720” barrel on the Tippmann. This will be an experiment on one of the next range trips.

The HK has easier to use magazines, easy to load and they just work . The Tippmann’s magazines keep giving me nose dive issues on the first round, may have to reach out to Tippmann on this if it continues. The sliding cover is easy enough to use and I may appreciate that more when shooting outside instead of in the range.

Reliability gives he edge to the HK strictly because of the Tippmann’s magazines. Neither have failed to exect or fire, but if you don’t give the Tippmann’s mags a good tap on the bench the first round won’t pop up and it will fail to feed.

I know someone will ask, so here’s why I bought both of these instead of the more popular and cheaper SW MP 15-22. It comes down to the polymer basis of the SW. I like the feel of the aluminum based rifles more. The polymer based SW feels like a toy rifle I had growing up and I that he first thing I think of every pick one up. If I had found the Tippmann first, I probably wouldn’t have bought the HK.
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Old April 13, 2018, 09:53 AM   #2
Ricklin
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Ammo?

How many brands/types of .22 ammunition have you tried?

.22's are all finicky eaters. What is most accurate in one may not be the most accurate in another.

You may find something that your Tippman shoots better accuracy wise.

I find CCI to be the most consistent. Usually the standard velocity stuff is the most accurate.

Part of the fun with .22's is learning what they like best.
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Old April 13, 2018, 09:57 AM   #3
Areoflyer09
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The Tippmann has been through 3 or 4 so far. More ammo is arriving today so should be able to give a good trial over the weekend.

Used up most of my “non-bulk”ammo sorting out the preferred ammo for my wife’s CZ 455.
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Old April 13, 2018, 10:00 AM   #4
zukiphile
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For my CMMG, the least expensive Aguila turned out to be much more accurate than some more expensive rounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AeroFlyer
Reliability gives he edge to the HK strictly because of the Tippmann’s magazines. Neither have failed to exect or fire, but if you don’t give the Tippmann’s mags a good tap on the bench the first round won’t pop up and it will fail to feed.

I know someone will ask, so here’s why I bought both of these instead of the more popular and cheaper SW MP 15-22. It comes down to the polymer basis of the SW.
The S&W magazine would be easier to load, more like the Umarex product.

Would a S&W magazine work in your Tippmann rifle?
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Old April 13, 2018, 10:26 AM   #5
Areoflyer09
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I do believe the magazines are proprietary. The initial nose dive is annoying, but it only has done when it finish loading. One good tap on the loading bench normally pops them into place and it functions fine. It’s not an end of the world kind of problem, but it does require an extra step to correct.

I’ve good a good spread of ammo to try with today’s arrival. I’ll be able to try CCI SV, CCI Mini-Mags, Geco 22LR, Geco Match & Browning bulk box. Most of what it’s had so far is Remington Golden & Fed Auto Match, with some standard Federal bulk maybe a 4th as well that I’ve forgotteen about.

Another plus that the Tippmann has is the funtional bolt release and forward assist. Neither of those function on the HK.
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Old April 13, 2018, 10:39 AM   #6
zukiphile
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Quote:
I do believe the magazines are proprietary.
I'm sure you are right, but there are happy occasions when different parts play well together. S&W magazines even work in a standard ar lower without an adapter, though the LRBHO function won't work.

I was very interested in the Tippmann, but I disliked the magazine design.
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Old April 13, 2018, 10:53 AM   #7
Areoflyer09
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I can understand not liking the design. Seems overly complicated, but thh are the trade off for getting the rest of the parts I do like.

I’ll have to find someone with a 15-22 and see if they fit or not, may get lucky but I’m not going to hold my breath.
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Old April 13, 2018, 04:33 PM   #8
marine6680
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Just looked at the Tippmann option online... Looks like a decent option.

I built up a dedicated 22lr using a standard lower and a 22lr upper from DPMS. It is unfortunately not available any longer it seems. It was a great option, purposely designed for 22lr from the ground up, not a standard upper with a bolt deigned to fit within the constraints of a standard upper.

I do hear that the CMMG upper is nice, but it doesn't look like a standard upper, there are some outward visual changes that are an easily seen giveaway that it isn't a standard upper.

Not a big deal really, but some may care.


The Tippmann being a complete rifle makes it a good option for those who are not a fan of the S&W rifle.

The magazine design is a little wonky, but I think it's designed to imitate standard magazine appearances.

22 plinkster seemed to not have any issues with theagazines he used in his review. His accuracy was pretty good too, even with bulk ammo. Match gave him less than an inch at 50yds.

The S&W works well, but I do not like that it is lighter than standard. That's a good thing for younger children though, makes it easier for them to hold.

I will never own the S&W, as they lack durability due to the full polymer contruction.

I know someone who snpped their stock off the rifle. Slipped on some mud and fell with the rifle.

Sure, that's outside normal use, but it's not like it's an uncommon thing to slip and fall.
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Old April 14, 2018, 11:32 AM   #9
riffraff
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I love my S&W 15-22, can shoot it better than anything else within the range of a .22 LR because it's light.

What I do wish though is instead of making things difficult if S&W just built a dedicated .22LR upper and then dropped it onto a standard dimension lower - which could've even been a polymer lower (hell if you built a .22 LR you might pick a polymer lower as it kinda makes sense for the type of rifle)... But if they had done it that way then S&W or anyone else could "upgrade" to any lower, all accessories would be mix & match etc.. etc..

What they did create though is a < $400 .22 AR, which works really well and even has an mlock lined quasi free float rail (not really free float but feels that way), comes with a set of magpul flip ups right out of the box too. You can spend twice the $$ and buy something that isn't really that much better of a rifle - or another way to put it, you could buy 2 of these for the price of some of the others. Saw them listed for $330 online recently, very hard to beat.
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Old April 14, 2018, 03:23 PM   #10
Areoflyer09
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Seems like a good time I share some info about my local range & my accuracy expectation/definition. 90% of my range time is done on a local indoor range that maxes out at 25 yards. I haven’t found a rest that I like yet, so I’m currently using my range bag as a rest when I do accuracy groups. My goal is to be able to get close to .25” 5-shot groups, not quite there yet best is .33” with my T-bolt.

I didn’t buy either the Tippmann or the HK to be one hole rifle, but I’d like to be able to get them as close to MOA as possible. So when I voice frustrations with accuracy, odds are higher it’s soemthing I’m doing over an issue with the rifle.

I did get to the range today, which was good and a bit of a bust.

Bust first, I got the important reminder that semi-auto 22s need cleaned more often than bolt actions. Lots and lots of light strikes. Wasn’t until I was off the range and taking to friend who works there that we pulled the bolt out and sure enough it was gunned up pretty bad. If nothing else, it was a good reminder that when you switch to a new platform cleaning routines will probably also need to be changed.

The good news is in between light strike issues I was able to get a couple of good groups off. The accuracy is getting better, there were a couple of groups that were more what I was expecting to see at 25 yards. It’s inproving and that what I want see for now as I spend more time behind the rifle. The other good news was while I was trying to solve the misfire I gave it a quick shot of lube just to see if that helped. It didn’t help the light strikes, but it did solve the nose diving in one of the magazines. I’ll give them both a shot of lube and see how they perform on the next trip out.

So two good things and a frustration. At least it appears I’ve solved the nose diving issue and the accuracy is getting closer to what I expected, but I didn’t get to test what I actually went for. Not a wasted day, but not quite what I was looking forward to today.
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Old April 16, 2018, 08:31 AM   #11
zukiphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AeroFlyer
I got the important reminder that semi-auto 22s need cleaned more often than bolt actions. Lots and lots of light strikes. Wasn’t until I was off the range and taking to friend who works there that we pulled the bolt out and sure enough it was gunned up pretty bad. If nothing else, it was a good reminder that when you switch to a new platform cleaning routines will probably also need to be changed.
Do you have a lot of history with 22lrs?

With a centerfire AR, I oil the bolt generously. There is a lot of force present and the powder residue is fine, so it sort of self cleans up to a point.

With 10/22s and AR22s, I use dry lubricant or very little oil. The unburnt powder and glass are coarse and extra oil just makes it all stick to the oiled parts. One you get it broken in, I bet you get good reliability without degradation for 500 or 600 rounds.
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Old April 16, 2018, 09:26 AM   #12
Areoflyer09
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Lots of experience with .22s, 9 out of the 14 in the safe are 22s. I just haven’t had a ton of experience with with SA 22s. The HK was the first SA22 rifle I’ve owned and it was bought a month before the Tippmann. The wife had a 10/22 for about year that neither of us ended up caring much for, it’s been gone for 6+ months now I think.

The bolt actions have really been my joy lately and they just don’t eat through ammo at he same rate. No need to clean them after every other trip or so as they don’t accumulate as much grime as quickly.

Thinking back, it was probably a little over 350 rounds from the initial after purchase cleaning to when it started acting up. It’s all clean again for a range trip this week. I put the oil on patch and then just wiped it along the bolt this time. I may have been heavier on the oil the first time. I’ll grab some dry lube as well to keep in the range bag.
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Old April 29, 2018, 03:09 PM   #13
Areoflyer09
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It’s been a busy & frustrating couple of weeks.

A good cleaning got the Tippmann back up and running smooth as silk. That was a temporary relief. I deduced to add a POF EFP trigger, 4bs, to reduce the travel/reset the stock trigger has. Tippmann claims it is drop in ready so why not? Well doing so brought back the light strikes, so a range trip & some investigative work later the issue was the new hammer is just a touch taller. This let the top of the hammer (not the face of the hammer) hit the top of the BCG. Just enough to reduce its speed and not have the needed energy to light off the rounds consistently. 20 minutes of work with a grind stone and the dremel has the top of the hammer radius to create clearance. Back at the range today to check and everything is back up and running.

I did talk with Tippmann, this is not a common problem that they have been informed of with drop-in triggers. It seems mine was outlier on this issue and the drop-in trigger had the issue not the rifle. They’ve had other drop-ins (I didn’t ask which) give no issues.

I had an offer on the HK that I couldn’t refuse so it’s been sold. Got what I paid for it. Opened up cash for another project and I liked the Tippmann more as I’ve spent time with both.

With everything back up and running, it’s eating every bit of ammo that I’ve fed it. Geco, CCI, Federal, Fiocchi, & Gem. Today was just a function test, most of the nicer ammo got used up in the bolt actions so and accuracy test will have to wait for the time being.

Overall, the rifle is comfortable, running well again & I quite like this new trigger. Time to just use it and find where it’s strengths/weaknesses lie.
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