Mosin Nagant problem

Opinated · April 5, 2018, 03:42 PM

Bought a Mosin Nagant, cosmoline galore. Disassembled it into major parts and cleaned most of it. Reassembled it and now the bolt will not remove and the trigger seems loose. I suspect that the trigger pin was lost and I reassembled it that way. The bolt works OK but cannot now be removed. The disassembly screw head under the bolt is not accessible now. My bolt has serial that matches the magazine box, etc.
Any way to get the bolt out without cutting it apart? That would take hours of Dremel grinding. I bet this is not the first time this has happened.
Thanks for your help.

tobnpr · April 5, 2018, 06:20 PM

You say the bolt functions normally- but it sounds as though the bolt stop/sear is engaged on the cocking piece (bolt is cocked but cannot be released)?

Never seen a way for the trigger pin to fall out while it's in the stock, as the inletting will not allow it to do so- must have been missing as you say when you assembled it.

You can access the screw head under the cocking piece- but it ain't easy. You need to work something in there into the slotted head and gradually work it around to loosen enough for the mag to come loose.

Alternately, and you may need another set of hands, pull back the cocking piece as far as it will go (a lot of spring tension)- you can then squeeze a pick down in there and depress the sear releasing the cocking piece.

tangolima · April 6, 2018, 12:02 AM

Take the action out of the stock and start everything from there.

Sounds like the trigger was assembled incorrectly, so that the sear doesn't come.down enough to clear the bolt. It a very simple rifle design. It shouldn't be very hard.

-TL

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

fourbore · April 6, 2018, 06:07 AM

WOW, just wow. Dremel !!

Mobuck · April 6, 2018, 07:52 AM

"Take the action out of the stock and start everything from there."

"The disassembly screw head under the bolt is not accessible now."

I know nothing about a M N but apparently dis-assembly is not as easy as it appears if the bolt isn't removed. tobnpr likely has the best plan.

Opinated · April 6, 2018, 08:56 AM

If the trigger pin is missing, and I cannot confirm that at this time, obviously it was missing when I assembled the action/barrel to the stock. Removing the action/barrel from the stock is not possible, as far as I can see, without removing the screw which is under the bolt when the bolt is in the receiver. And I see no way to loosen that screw with the bolt in place.
If I did assemble it with the trigger pin missing, it almost certainly has happened to others previously.
To rephrase my dilemma, how to remove the bolt from the receiver when the trigger will not release it?

tangolima · April 6, 2018, 10:21 AM

I got the wrong mental picture when I first read the op. It is the tang screw that is covered by the cocking piece. My bad.

Does the trigger move up and down? With the bolt handle raised and pulled back, grab the trigger and pull it to the bottom of the trigger guard, can you feel the springy tension of a spring?

If you can make the gun fire, the cocking piece will go forward and expose the tang screw. There are a few ways you can try to make the sear release the cocking piece. I just need to know where you are with the trigger.

-TL

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

T. O'Heir · April 6, 2018, 11:45 AM

This might help. There's a trigger pin that holds the trigger in the rifle. And there's a trigger spring that's also the bolt stop. Said bolt stop also has a screw. Look at the bolt stop screw first.
http://stevespages.com/ipb-mosinnagant-1891.html

tangolima · April 6, 2018, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

And there's a trigger spring that's also the bolt stop. Said bolt stop also has a screw. Look at the bolt stop screw first.
http://stevespages.com/ipb-mosinnagant-1891.html

The spring is the sear. The bolt stop is the tip of the trigger. Two different things. You can't get to the sear screw without removing the action from the stock.

-TL

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Opinated · April 6, 2018, 07:58 PM

The responses are very much appreciated. They provoke additional thought on my part. I have never fired this rifle-- this assembly is the first after removing the cosmoline. I do not recall even dry firing it. The rifle is in my shop in a detached building, so holding it while on the computer is not possible.
Watched several more of the YouTube videos and now realize that if the bolt was not in the cocked position, the back tang screw is partially exposed.
If I remove the magazine bottom and spring, any chance to release the firing pin tension?
I do not recall how this date was established, but earlier I was led to believe that my rifle was made in 1945-- appears to have minimal mechanical wear.
The stock has two minor repairs and then was refinished-- presumably by Russian armorers.
If I knew where to drill, I could drill the stock at the trigger pin position and insert a pin if it is missing-- then patch that hole.
Given the good condition of the metal, if necessary the stock could be sacrificed. Cutting away the wood would expose the screw body enabling removal with pliers on the body.
A replacement stock would be necessary.
Hopefully you, collectively, will have some insight on these "ideas".
Thanks again.

Opinated · April 9, 2018, 01:13 PM

Watched some more Mosin Nagant videos on YouTube and caught glimpses of the parts that might be involved in the problem with my rifle.
I think that The Receiver/Barrel (RB) and Magazine Body/Trigger Guard (MBTG) can be fastened together with the screws, perhaps loosely, without the stock being between them. This would permit examining the relationship of the working parts without the stock blocking the view. This would enable seeing if a shim or pick inserted at a certain point might release the bolt.
So I need another such rifle in good working condition for this experiment. Working now on buying or borrowing one.
Your ideas and suggestions welcomed.

fourbore · April 9, 2018, 02:00 PM

Now you are talking. Maybe you can find one of the Finnish rebuilds.

tobnpr · April 9, 2018, 06:16 PM

Quote:

This would enable seeing if a shim or pick inserted at a certain point might release the bolt.

Wow...Deja-vu...

Exactly what I said, 3 days ago...

You can lead a horse....

ballardw · April 10, 2018, 12:34 AM

I seem to remember my Mosin-Nagant coming with a large tag and warning about proper assembly of the bolt...

Josh Smith · April 11, 2018, 08:06 AM

Hello,

The trigger spring is NOT the bolt stop.

The bolt stop is on top of the trigger.

You should be able to rotate the trigger so that you can pull the bolt out. You may have to pull the trigger down some, too, but it's very possible.

Please don't Dremel etc. It'll come out just fine with a little work.

Here are some links that may give you a more clear understanding:

http://www.smith-sights.com/tips-and-how-tos.php
http://www.smith-sights.com/instructional-videos.php

There are several movies and articles.

If you have any further questions, please ask. I know these rifles and like to help.

Regards,
Josh

Opinated · April 11, 2018, 06:23 PM

Thanks for the links to the videos.
I located another Mosin which needs some loving care. The (motivated) seller had planned to make it into a sporter but did not yet modify anything. Other projects had gotten his attention. It should be in my possession by next week. It has two stocks with it, the original and the sporter. The stocks are worth the price paid for this one.

Several videos note the tendency of the trigger pin to fall free by gravity-- and I suspect that is what happened in my case. What about lightly peening the pin ends so that drift would be required in order to remove the pin? Wonder what Russian troops did in the field about the loose pin problem? Dropped in the gravel while field cleaning would not be good.

ballardw · April 11, 2018, 10:13 PM

Quote:

and I suspect that is what happened in my case. What about lightly peeing the pin ends so that drift would be required in order

While rust may hold things together I believe you meant peening

Opinated · April 12, 2018, 07:24 AM

What an egregious error on my part-- omitting a crucial letter-- and not a vowel at that. I meant to use hammer and punch to PEEN the pin. Any reason not to do so?

Opinated · April 12, 2018, 02:22 PM

Another question, please. I have never fired a M-N. Bought two big "spam" cans with opener of ammo that were stated to be corrosive primer. Have been told by one person that spraying Windex into the bore and then cleaning in conventional manner is sufficient after firing this ammo.
Do you agree? If not, what is the procedure that you use? Any idea what the Soviet troops did for cleaning while in the field?

10-96 · April 13, 2018, 02:20 AM

Yeah, it appears Windex is a pretty common neutralizing step that I see quite frequently on the innerwebs. What I use is a 50/50 mixture of Ballistol and water (some folk used to call it "Moose Milk"). I like the idea of the Ballistol because when the water evaporates, it leaves the oil. Of course the barrel gets scrubbed by regular cleaning, but I don't worry about the stuff getting into or staying in other areas by accident. And, letting the moose milk soak in the barrel surely can't hurt in cleaning as it stays around longer than the Windex which is kinda quick to evaporate.

Opinated · April 17, 2018, 04:13 PM

Thanks to all who took the time to respond.
Used another Mosin barrel aligned visually with mine and marked the stock at the trigger pin location. 9/64 is slightly smaller than the trigger pin and that was the first drill size used-- not suitable alignment. Drilled 1/4 and alignment almost suitable with 6d nail as probe. 5/16 drill and 12d common nail did the job-- rifle bolt is out! Stock already has two unexplained 5/16 plugs in blind holes.
This hole will be plugged and the Mosin will live again. Made in 1943, imported by CAI.

The pin was missing, evidently gone when I assembled it earlier.

fourbore · April 17, 2018, 04:59 PM

Sounds like the gun could be banged with a mallet or shaken and the parts made to line up internally. I had a pistol with a pin shifted. It took a few frustrating hours but once I was able to visualize the problem, I was able to shift the pin around until it was in position. it was supposed to be staked at the factory but it slipped through and only became a problem when field stripping.

In this case, no harm given the gun we are talking about. One more plug in an old stock.

April 5, 2018, 03:42 PM	#1
Opinated Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2006 Posts: 354	Mosin Nagant problem Bought a Mosin Nagant, cosmoline galore. Disassembled it into major parts and cleaned most of it. Reassembled it and now the bolt will not remove and the trigger seems loose. I suspect that the trigger pin was lost and I reassembled it that way. The bolt works OK but cannot now be removed. The disassembly screw head under the bolt is not accessible now. My bolt has serial that matches the magazine box, etc. Any way to get the bolt out without cutting it apart? That would take hours of Dremel grinding. I bet this is not the first time this has happened. Thanks for your help.

April 5, 2018, 06:20 PM	#2
tobnpr Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 4,556	You say the bolt functions normally- but it sounds as though the bolt stop/sear is engaged on the cocking piece (bolt is cocked but cannot be released)? Never seen a way for the trigger pin to fall out while it's in the stock, as the inletting will not allow it to do so- must have been missing as you say when you assembled it. You can access the screw head under the cocking piece- but it ain't easy. You need to work something in there into the slotted head and gradually work it around to loosen enough for the mag to come loose. Alternately, and you may need another set of hands, pull back the cocking piece as far as it will go (a lot of spring tension)- you can then squeeze a pick down in there and depress the sear releasing the cocking piece. __________________ Remington 700/Savage Rebarreling /Action Blueprinting 07 FFL /Mosin-Nagant Custom Shop/Bent Bolts Genuine Cerakote Applicator www.biggorillagunworks.com Last edited by tobnpr; April 6, 2018 at 04:26 PM.

April 6, 2018, 08:56 AM	#6
Opinated Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2006 Posts: 354	If the trigger pin is missing, and I cannot confirm that at this time, obviously it was missing when I assembled the action/barrel to the stock. Removing the action/barrel from the stock is not possible, as far as I can see, without removing the screw which is under the bolt when the bolt is in the receiver. And I see no way to loosen that screw with the bolt in place. If I did assemble it with the trigger pin missing, it almost certainly has happened to others previously. To rephrase my dilemma, how to remove the bolt from the receiver when the trigger will not release it? Last edited by Opinated; April 6, 2018 at 02:11 PM.

April 6, 2018, 11:45 AM	#8
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	This might help. There's a trigger pin that holds the trigger in the rifle. And there's a trigger spring that's also the bolt stop. Said bolt stop also has a screw. Look at the bolt stop screw first. http://stevespages.com/ipb-mosinnagant-1891.html __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

April 6, 2018, 07:58 PM	#10
Opinated Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2006 Posts: 354	The responses are very much appreciated. They provoke additional thought on my part. I have never fired this rifle-- this assembly is the first after removing the cosmoline. I do not recall even dry firing it. The rifle is in my shop in a detached building, so holding it while on the computer is not possible. Watched several more of the YouTube videos and now realize that if the bolt was not in the cocked position, the back tang screw is partially exposed. If I remove the magazine bottom and spring, any chance to release the firing pin tension? I do not recall how this date was established, but earlier I was led to believe that my rifle was made in 1945-- appears to have minimal mechanical wear. The stock has two minor repairs and then was refinished-- presumably by Russian armorers. If I knew where to drill, I could drill the stock at the trigger pin position and insert a pin if it is missing-- then patch that hole. Given the good condition of the metal, if necessary the stock could be sacrificed. Cutting away the wood would expose the screw body enabling removal with pliers on the body. A replacement stock would be necessary. Hopefully you, collectively, will have some insight on these "ideas". Thanks again. Last edited by Opinated; April 6, 2018 at 08:28 PM.

April 6, 2018, 12:02 AM	#3
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,815	Take the action out of the stock and start everything from there. Sounds like the trigger was assembled incorrectly, so that the sear doesn't come.down enough to clear the bolt. It a very simple rifle design. It shouldn't be very hard. -TL Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

April 6, 2018, 06:07 AM	#4
fourbore Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2015 Location: new england Posts: 1,159	WOW, just wow. Dremel !!

April 6, 2018, 07:52 AM	#5
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	"Take the action out of the stock and start everything from there." "The disassembly screw head under the bolt is not accessible now." I know nothing about a M N but apparently dis-assembly is not as easy as it appears if the bolt isn't removed. tobnpr likely has the best plan.

April 6, 2018, 10:21 AM	#7
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,815	I got the wrong mental picture when I first read the op. It is the tang screw that is covered by the cocking piece. My bad. Does the trigger move up and down? With the bolt handle raised and pulled back, grab the trigger and pull it to the bottom of the trigger guard, can you feel the springy tension of a spring? If you can make the gun fire, the cocking piece will go forward and expose the tang screw. There are a few ways you can try to make the sear release the cocking piece. I just need to know where you are with the trigger. -TL Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

April 9, 2018, 01:13 PM	#11
Opinated Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2006 Posts: 354	Watched some more Mosin Nagant videos on YouTube and caught glimpses of the parts that might be involved in the problem with my rifle. I think that The Receiver/Barrel (RB) and Magazine Body/Trigger Guard (MBTG) can be fastened together with the screws, perhaps loosely, without the stock being between them. This would permit examining the relationship of the working parts without the stock blocking the view. This would enable seeing if a shim or pick inserted at a certain point might release the bolt. So I need another such rifle in good working condition for this experiment. Working now on buying or borrowing one. Your ideas and suggestions welcomed.

April 9, 2018, 02:00 PM	#12
fourbore Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2015 Location: new england Posts: 1,159	Now you are talking. Maybe you can find one of the Finnish rebuilds.

April 10, 2018, 12:34 AM	#14
ballardw Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 1,411	I seem to remember my Mosin-Nagant coming with a large tag and warning about proper assembly of the bolt... __________________ -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ All data is flawed, some just less so.

April 11, 2018, 08:06 AM	#15
Josh Smith member Join Date: November 5, 2000 Location: Wabash IN Posts: 740	Hello, The trigger spring is NOT the bolt stop. The bolt stop is on top of the trigger. You should be able to rotate the trigger so that you can pull the bolt out. You may have to pull the trigger down some, too, but it's very possible. Please don't Dremel etc. It'll come out just fine with a little work. Here are some links that may give you a more clear understanding: http://www.smith-sights.com/tips-and-how-tos.php http://www.smith-sights.com/instructional-videos.php There are several movies and articles. If you have any further questions, please ask. I know these rifles and like to help. Regards, Josh

April 11, 2018, 06:23 PM	#16
Opinated Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2006 Posts: 354	Thanks for the links to the videos. I located another Mosin which needs some loving care. The (motivated) seller had planned to make it into a sporter but did not yet modify anything. Other projects had gotten his attention. It should be in my possession by next week. It has two stocks with it, the original and the sporter. The stocks are worth the price paid for this one. Several videos note the tendency of the trigger pin to fall free by gravity-- and I suspect that is what happened in my case. What about lightly peening the pin ends so that drift would be required in order to remove the pin? Wonder what Russian troops did in the field about the loose pin problem? Dropped in the gravel while field cleaning would not be good. Last edited by Opinated; April 12, 2018 at 07:22 AM.

April 12, 2018, 07:24 AM	#18
Opinated Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2006 Posts: 354	What an egregious error on my part-- omitting a crucial letter-- and not a vowel at that. I meant to use hammer and punch to PEEN the pin. Any reason not to do so? Last edited by Opinated; April 12, 2018 at 02:16 PM.

April 12, 2018, 02:22 PM	#19
Opinated Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2006 Posts: 354	Another question, please. I have never fired a M-N. Bought two big "spam" cans with opener of ammo that were stated to be corrosive primer. Have been told by one person that spraying Windex into the bore and then cleaning in conventional manner is sufficient after firing this ammo. Do you agree? If not, what is the procedure that you use? Any idea what the Soviet troops did for cleaning while in the field?

April 13, 2018, 02:20 AM	#20
10-96 Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Tx Panhandle Territory Posts: 4,159	Yeah, it appears Windex is a pretty common neutralizing step that I see quite frequently on the innerwebs. What I use is a 50/50 mixture of Ballistol and water (some folk used to call it "Moose Milk"). I like the idea of the Ballistol because when the water evaporates, it leaves the oil. Of course the barrel gets scrubbed by regular cleaning, but I don't worry about the stuff getting into or staying in other areas by accident. And, letting the moose milk soak in the barrel surely can't hurt in cleaning as it stays around longer than the Windex which is kinda quick to evaporate. __________________ Rednecks... Keeping the woods critter-free since March 2, 1836. (TX Independence Day) I suspect a thing or two... because I've seen a thing or two.

April 17, 2018, 04:13 PM	#21
Opinated Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2006 Posts: 354	Mosin Fixed! Thanks to all who took the time to respond. Used another Mosin barrel aligned visually with mine and marked the stock at the trigger pin location. 9/64 is slightly smaller than the trigger pin and that was the first drill size used-- not suitable alignment. Drilled 1/4 and alignment almost suitable with 6d nail as probe. 5/16 drill and 12d common nail did the job-- rifle bolt is out! Stock already has two unexplained 5/16 plugs in blind holes. This hole will be plugged and the Mosin will live again. Made in 1943, imported by CAI. The pin was missing, evidently gone when I assembled it earlier. Last edited by Opinated; April 17, 2018 at 06:43 PM.

April 17, 2018, 04:59 PM	#22
fourbore Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2015 Location: new england Posts: 1,159	Sounds like the gun could be banged with a mallet or shaken and the parts made to line up internally. I had a pistol with a pin shifted. It took a few frustrating hours but once I was able to visualize the problem, I was able to shift the pin around until it was in position. it was supposed to be staked at the factory but it slipped through and only became a problem when field stripping. In this case, no harm given the gun we are talking about. One more plug in an old stock. Last edited by fourbore; April 17, 2018 at 05:07 PM.