Considering a Dutch contract luger - what say you?

Winchester_73 · February 24, 2011, 08:11 PM

So this dealer that I buy from got this luger in from a woman who inherited her father's collection. At first I wasn't interested because I wanted a luger that was more rare than a DWM 9mm, but of course I was ignorant for a while of what this luger really was. I thought he said it was mismatched so I never even made an offer on it. Recently I had looked at a S/42 with a mismatched extractor which renewed my luger curiosity (the seller wanted approx $1500, so I passed). I started talking to the dealer about this one, and when I looked again at the picture, I noticed the brass plate on the left side. I realized that had to be something special. So I started researching what it could be, and I think its a 1906 Dutch contract luger. He told me that the mag is unumbered and from the pics that he gave, the mag appears correct for a Dutch gun. It also comes with a holster and a cleaning rod. After doing research, (correct me if I'm wrong) but this is an uncommon or perhaps scarce luger because for one only around 4800 were made and 2, they are not found very often in the USA. The seller is $700 firm on this piece, I guess because the condition isn't perfect but I think thats quite a good deal anyways. Should I get this one? Forgive me if this seems like a dumb question, but I ask because I want one thats worth the price. He says all parts that have a number are matching. I assume that the cleaning rod itself is a hard find.

SN - 38XX

(there are the only pics I have)

j-framer · February 24, 2011, 08:31 PM

For that price, get on the phone and buy it right now before someone else gets to it. If all parts are indeed matching, you have a real score.

I am not an expert on Lugers, but even a mismatched shooter in good mechanical shape is worth what he is asking.

If you want to be really sure about what it is that you are considering buying, talk to these folks:

http://luger.gunboards.com/

Post the pictures in the "New Collectors" forum. There are very knowledgeable veteran collectors who will be glad to help you know what you are getting.

Winchester_73 · February 24, 2011, 08:34 PM

Thanks for the help. I did post there already but I know there are knowledgeable people here as well.

ROGER4314 · February 24, 2011, 10:45 PM

I've never had a Luger and would buy that one without hesitation.

Flash

James K · February 25, 2011, 12:26 AM

A shooter is worth that price. How about a picture of the top of the front toggle and of the proof mark on the left side of the receiver ring?

That holster looks right, and should be worth almost as much as the cost of the pistol.

Jim

Winchester_73 · February 25, 2011, 09:46 AM

Mr. Keenan,

The gun is a DWM. I don't believe it has a year stamp on the barrel for a rebuild. I had no idea the holster was that valuable. I guess this could be my greatest find. It appears to have the correct mag as well - nickel plated, unnumbered, wood bottom, without concentric circles (Navy model had the concentric circles).

I plan to buy the gun today but it will be shipped so it could be a while before I can post pics.

gyvel · February 25, 2011, 05:09 PM

Quote:

The gun is a DWM. I don't believe it has a year stamp on the barrel for a rebuild. I had no idea the holster was that valuable. I guess this could be my greatest find. It appears to have the correct mag as well - nickel plated, unnumbered, wood bottom, without concentric circles (Navy model had the concentric circles).

I plan to buy the gun today but it will be shipped so it could be a while before I can post pics.

SCORE!!!!!!

**44 AMP** · February 25, 2011, 11:23 PM

1906 Dutch contract Luger, you called it, all 5 needed features match spot on with the description in Standard Catalog of Luger (2006).

Value in poor condition (2006) $700

Its worth the asking price.
4,181 made

The last 750 were delivered to the Dutch in early summer 1914, and your gun's ser# puts it in that group. Supposedly all this group was sent to the Dutch East Indies. Wonder how it got where it is now?

According to what I have for reference, the brass plate unit number indicates an arsenal rework.

Drachenstein · February 25, 2011, 11:46 PM

Buy it, don't delay

Sport45 · February 26, 2011, 12:18 AM

DON'T BUY IT!!!

It's a terrible waste of money and the thing will probably blow up the first time you pull the trigger.

Instead, PM me with the contact information of the dealer so I can let him know what I think about the way he prices handguns.

I'll make sure the gun isn't available to tempt anyone else.

Seriously, I'd have to be applying Ben-Gay to my shoulder as I would have wrenched it terribly going for my wallet at $700. Might not even try to talk him down a bit. (The real crime is he probably only paid $350 -$400 for it.)

Winchester_73 · February 26, 2011, 12:25 AM

I purchased the gun today for the princely sum of $723 plus transfer. Even though I wanted the dealer to make sure it matched, he stated that he never disassembled a luger before so I didn't push it. The holster is apparently worth about $500+ and the gun, even is mismatched, is basically a $500+ shooter, so the math works in my favor.

Quote:

1906 Dutch contract Luger, you called it, all 5 needed features match spot on with the description in Standard Catalog of Luger (2006).

I actually have that book too. I bought it to have a luger reference so I didn't over pay for a luger OR let a good one slip away. I'll say the book was worth the $20 price. Amazing how just a few years ago it was $20, and now its like $100 because its out of print. Supply and demand...

Quote:

Value in poor condition (2006) $700

Its worth the asking price.
4,181 made

Apparently due to the East Indies climate, all have finish problems and practically all were arsenal refinished at one time or another. I don't think its in poor condition myself, because all are bad of this type. Another collector actually said that its in "good" condition for a Dutch. 4181 made - I read that there was that many, or perhaps less made. Some were made by Vickers for the Dutch East Indies, with DWM guns being more rare.

Quote:

The last 750 were delivered to the Dutch in early summer 1914, and your gun's ser# puts it in that group. Supposedly all this group was sent to the Dutch East Indies. Wonder how it got where it is now?

I am buying this through a dealer I buy from (bought a garand, colt mustang, high standard space gun, just to name a few from him) who was selling on consignment a WWII veteran's collection that the veteran's daughter inherited. The gun, in my opinion was apparently appraised low by "experts" that this dealer had look over the gun. The original price was $900 so I offered $700 before I really knew the rarity of it all and even now, I still don't know if the gun all matches or not.

The veteran fought the Imperial Japanese in the Asian theater. Asian you ask, how could that be? Well a quick history lesson: these dutch lugers were issued to the Royal Dutch East Indies Army which fell to the Japanese in 1942. The Japanese had big plans for the East Indies, even long before Pearl Harbor due to the rich natural resources that the East Indies had to offer.
So my estimation, which has some proof to go with it, is that this gun was a bit of a double war trophy meaning that a Japanese soldier or perhaps even officer since it is a luger, captured it as his very own before he lost his life, presumably, at which time it became an American war trophy from our Asian theater. A luger collector told me on the show "WWII in HD" that he remembers seeing video of Asian war trophies with one of our boys holding up a Dutch luger - could it be the same one? We may never know...

Quote:

According to what I have for reference, the brass plate unit number indicates an arsenal rework.

I've read a lot of conflicting info about the brass plate and the plate being for reworks only is news to me. I read that they all had it, but some were later removed. Then I read that lugers issued to East Indies officers did not have the plate but all others did. Overall however, from what I read, the brass plate is an identity trait for these meaning that either all got the plate, probably from DWM, and then the East Indies Army marked it however, or perhaps indicating that ALL were factory refinished, but I find that scenario hard to believe.

Another interesting side note: the mag seems to be 100% correct. I find that to be amazing. What are the odds?

I will get this piece of history next week, will promptly field strip it, and will post pics even if its not a perfect matching specimen. I myself don't care about the finish given the history of the arm.

Sport45 · February 26, 2011, 12:33 AM

Great score! Do let us know more about it once you get it home.

I'm glad to hear it was sold on consignment. Moves the dealer a step up in my mind.

**44 AMP** · February 26, 2011, 12:52 PM

"Wondering how it got where it is today" was my speculation on the possibility of it being a double war trophy. What a fascinating story it would be, could we know the details.

I know of an absolutely "correct" pistol taken from a Japanese officer, the guy who took it (and some other things) still has them. The "Japanese pistol" is a S&W .32cal top break revolver, in a Japanese made holster, with cartridge loops under the flap. Many officers brought their own pistols and swords to war, and nearly anything could be historically correct.

The Luger was likely captured during the fall of the Dutch East Indies, and later taken by some Allied forces. The last owner might have taken it in combat off the Japanese that carried it, might have found it in arms stocks, might have won it in a poker game, or bought it from someone who did. This one is special rare, not just because of it being Dutch Contract, but because it must be one of the handful of Lugers in the US that doesn't have a story about how it was taken off a German officer to go with it!

The Standard Catalog of Luger says that approx 3,000 were issued to enlisted men, and unit marked on the backstrap of the grip. The remaining 1,181 were issued to NCOs and officers and were not unit marked.

Arsenal reworked guns usually had the unit marking removed and displayed on a brass plate mounted on the flat of the left side of the frame.

I had no idea the book was worth that much!

gyvel · February 27, 2011, 09:19 AM

The coarse checkering on the grips was indicative of locally made grips by Indonesian Armorer's understudies. The brass plate usually denoted the unit to which the gun was issued.

Winchester_73 · February 27, 2011, 10:19 AM

Quote:

The brass plate usually denoted the unit to which the gun was issued.

Are you saying that they all had brass plates when they were manufactured? Thats what I've read at least. I have yet to find any info that the brass plates were added later.

gyvel · February 27, 2011, 02:41 PM

The brass plates were added, as I understand it, by the KNIL.

Winchester_73 · March 13, 2011, 02:53 AM

I got the luger, please post any questions or comments in this thread:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=444314

February 24, 2011, 08:11 PM	#1
Winchester_73 Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 2,863	Considering a Dutch contract luger - what say you? So this dealer that I buy from got this luger in from a woman who inherited her father's collection. At first I wasn't interested because I wanted a luger that was more rare than a DWM 9mm, but of course I was ignorant for a while of what this luger really was. I thought he said it was mismatched so I never even made an offer on it. Recently I had looked at a S/42 with a mismatched extractor which renewed my luger curiosity (the seller wanted approx $1500, so I passed). I started talking to the dealer about this one, and when I looked again at the picture, I noticed the brass plate on the left side. I realized that had to be something special. So I started researching what it could be, and I think its a 1906 Dutch contract luger. He told me that the mag is unumbered and from the pics that he gave, the mag appears correct for a Dutch gun. It also comes with a holster and a cleaning rod. After doing research, (correct me if I'm wrong) but this is an uncommon or perhaps scarce luger because for one only around 4800 were made and 2, they are not found very often in the USA. The seller is $700 firm on this piece, I guess because the condition isn't perfect but I think thats quite a good deal anyways. Should I get this one? Forgive me if this seems like a dumb question, but I ask because I want one thats worth the price. He says all parts that have a number are matching. I assume that the cleaning rod itself is a hard find. SN - 38XX (there are the only pics I have) __________________ Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west

February 24, 2011, 08:34 PM	#3
Winchester_73 Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 2,863	Thanks for the help. I did post there already but I know there are knowledgeable people here as well. __________________ Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west

February 25, 2011, 12:26 AM	#5
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	A shooter is worth that price. How about a picture of the top of the front toggle and of the proof mark on the left side of the receiver ring? That holster looks right, and should be worth almost as much as the cost of the pistol. Jim Last edited by James K; February 25, 2011 at 12:42 AM.

February 25, 2011, 09:46 AM	#6
Winchester_73 Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 2,863	Mr. Keenan, The gun is a DWM. I don't believe it has a year stamp on the barrel for a rebuild. I had no idea the holster was that valuable. I guess this could be my greatest find. It appears to have the correct mag as well - nickel plated, unnumbered, wood bottom, without concentric circles (Navy model had the concentric circles). I plan to buy the gun today but it will be shipped so it could be a while before I can post pics. __________________ Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west

February 25, 2011, 11:23 PM	#8
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,846	1906 Dutch contract Luger, you called it, all 5 needed features match spot on with the description in Standard Catalog of Luger (2006). Value in poor condition (2006) $700 Its worth the asking price. 4,181 made The last 750 were delivered to the Dutch in early summer 1914, and your gun's ser# puts it in that group. Supposedly all this group was sent to the Dutch East Indies. Wonder how it got where it is now? According to what I have for reference, the brass plate unit number indicates an arsenal rework. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 24, 2011, 08:31 PM	#2
j-framer Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2006 Posts: 375	For that price, get on the phone and buy it right now before someone else gets to it. If all parts are indeed matching, you have a real score. I am not an expert on Lugers, but even a mismatched shooter in good mechanical shape is worth what he is asking. If you want to be really sure about what it is that you are considering buying, talk to these folks: http://luger.gunboards.com/ Post the pictures in the "New Collectors" forum. There are very knowledgeable veteran collectors who will be glad to help you know what you are getting.

February 24, 2011, 10:45 PM	#4
ROGER4314 Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2009 Location: East Houston Posts: 257	I've never had a Luger and would buy that one without hesitation. Flash

February 25, 2011, 11:46 PM	#9
Drachenstein Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2008 Location: Elizabethtown, KY Posts: 224	Buy it, don't delay

February 26, 2011, 12:18 AM	#10
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	DON'T BUY IT!!! It's a terrible waste of money and the thing will probably blow up the first time you pull the trigger. Instead, PM me with the contact information of the dealer so I can let him know what I think about the way he prices handguns. I'll make sure the gun isn't available to tempt anyone else. Seriously, I'd have to be applying Ben-Gay to my shoulder as I would have wrenched it terribly going for my wallet at $700. Might not even try to talk him down a bit. (The real crime is he probably only paid $350 -$400 for it.) __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

February 26, 2011, 12:33 AM	#12
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	Great score! Do let us know more about it once you get it home. I'm glad to hear it was sold on consignment. Moves the dealer a step up in my mind. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

February 26, 2011, 12:52 PM	#13
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,846	"Wondering how it got where it is today" was my speculation on the possibility of it being a double war trophy. What a fascinating story it would be, could we know the details. I know of an absolutely "correct" pistol taken from a Japanese officer, the guy who took it (and some other things) still has them. The "Japanese pistol" is a S&W .32cal top break revolver, in a Japanese made holster, with cartridge loops under the flap. Many officers brought their own pistols and swords to war, and nearly anything could be historically correct. The Luger was likely captured during the fall of the Dutch East Indies, and later taken by some Allied forces. The last owner might have taken it in combat off the Japanese that carried it, might have found it in arms stocks, might have won it in a poker game, or bought it from someone who did. This one is special rare, not just because of it being Dutch Contract, but because it must be one of the handful of Lugers in the US that doesn't have a story about how it was taken off a German officer to go with it! The Standard Catalog of Luger says that approx 3,000 were issued to enlisted men, and unit marked on the backstrap of the grip. The remaining 1,181 were issued to NCOs and officers and were not unit marked. Arsenal reworked guns usually had the unit marking removed and displayed on a brass plate mounted on the flat of the left side of the frame. I had no idea the book was worth that much! __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 27, 2011, 09:19 AM	#14
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	The coarse checkering on the grips was indicative of locally made grips by Indonesian Armorer's understudies. The brass plate usually denoted the unit to which the gun was issued.

February 27, 2011, 02:41 PM	#16
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	The brass plates were added, as I understand it, by the KNIL.

March 13, 2011, 02:53 AM	#17
Winchester_73 Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 2,863	I got the luger, please post any questions or comments in this thread: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=444314 __________________ Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west