defensive sight, double standards.

[mordis]

I have been wrestling with this topic for some time. I touched apon it in a older thread regarding revolver night sights and didnt really get any good discussion going on it. So im starting this thread.

Almost all auto pistols can be had with night sights. Alot of people on this forum reccomend getting them, saying there part of a effective self defence package. I agree fully with that.

The people that come on here, looking for a begginer gun reccomendation often times, get told to get a revolver in anywere from 2"-4" barrel. Often times in .38/357. That is also a great choice for both ccw and oc and home defence. The only problem is, most revolvers are not sold with night sights, very few companies make night sight packages(front and back, waste of time to only get the front IMHO), and the few custom shops(C&S) that do offer them, they are expenive and require machining of the gun and frame to accept them, often limited to one sight design.(C&S offers only 3 dot tritium).

Alot of people here reccommend night sights for all carry auto pistols, yet alot of people here make no mention of night sights for revolver carriers. On the few times this problem is discussed, i see comments ranging from carrying a flashlight to learning to point shoot. Both are valid, but doe not address the underlying issue. Which is why isnt the major revolver manufactures equiping there combat revolvers with night sights, or atleast giving them a standard sight mounting system, so they can easily remove whats on them and put on any aftermarket sight available.(I prefere Heini straight eights).

So here we are with this double standard, autopistols are almost universaly recomended to be equiped with night sights, while almost no one even broaches the idea of them on carry revolvers.

This issue affects me, becuase i have a beautifull S&W m15-3 that is a amazingly accurate and easy to carry. I never doubt about it in the daytime. But if i have to be anywere, and i know ill be there into the darkness, i bring out my glock, which has nightsights. I beleive that inorder to have a decent defensive handgun you need to be able to see your sights, or atleast have the ability to form a sight picture in all lights. You cant do this with revolver. my m15-3 has a black front ramp(that i added some hunter orange paint to a portion of it) and adjustable rear sights. Its great in the daytime or places with good light, but i just can not find the sights at all in low light.

Sure i can point shoot. I have gotten pretty good at it. I can just feel where my bullet is going to go and most of the time it goes were i wish it to. I know that doesnt describe how i do it in any kind of usefull detail, but thats how it works for me, but i dont think this is something i can use to any advantage in a low light selfdefense situation.

SO my question goes out to the guys who ccw/oc revolvers of any barrel length. How do you guys find your sights in the low light conditions, and how do you train with your revolvers so that you can adaquatly defend your self in low light situations. I know that carrying a small light is great for ccw/oc but it is not always a option, so in those time what do you do.



Next question is, why is there a double standard, and what will it take to change the manufactureres minds about revo night sights.

[BillCA]

This is a good question and we won't see a variety of products until we show a demand for them.

There are several issues at play here.

The adjustable sight blades of most wheelguns is too thin to hold a tritium tube securely. So you must replace at least the sight blade. Front sights that are solid must be machined to accept the tritium insert. Pinned sights could be made that are replacements, but it's still a gunsmith job for many.

Glow-in-the-dark paints are typically less than stellar performers. After all, the holstered gun is protected from the elements, including light, so they don't "charge up" to the brightness of tritium sights.

For a dedicated carry gun with a known load sighted in, the C&S adjustable-to-fixed conversion is workable. However many people dislike losing the adjustable sights.

Installing a tritium front sight only will work for most CCW applications, however. Since most defensive uses occur within 20 feet, precision alignment to the rear sight isn't necessary. Put the dot on COM and squeeze.

[Don P]

+1 BillCa, and if I may add my .02 chances are that at night after the first round is out of the tube the flash would nulify the use of the night sites. Point and shoot!

[Rob Pincus]

I am not in the camp that recommends night sights... I am firmly in the camp who recommends revolvers as good CCW and home defense options.

Nightsights are a big marketing thing.. like rails on guns... THey have their place, but that place isn't justified by the overwhelming presence in the marketplace except for the fact that they sell well.

THe conditions under which nightsights are actually very valuable are pretty contrived, for example:

Enough light to see/indentify the threat, but not enough light/contrast to line-up the sights and the need for precision dictates precise sight alignment. Perhaps you are in the dark and the threat is in a decently lit room, but wearing dark clothes and not within 10', for example.


I think (hope?) we are past the point where people are preaching a "need" for nightsights. I have noticed a trend of people recommending tritium in the fron sight only, for example, if you really feel you need it.

Your point is well-made, but I think the assumption that nightsights are all that important is flawed based on empiracle data.

[mordis]

Rob, with out giving out to much detail, could you share some for examples from your classes. How do you address this with your students, and how do you over come there need/desire for glowing sights on a gun.

I did a test, i turned off all the lights in my house save fore the hall light(my bed is at a 90degree angle to the hall way), and picked up my revo(unloaded) and tried to aim at a object i had stationed near my door. The object was a darker color, black. With the back light on in the hall way, i tried to find my front sight only on the target. While i was able to see the front sight when it was on either side of the target, the moment it was on the target, it completely dissapeared. Now, when i place the target in the hallway, and then aim at it, i can just barely make out the outline of my front and rear sights. With my glock, i was in all circumstances able to line up all three dots. Just to note, i have meprolight nightsight onmy glock, but will be changing them to heini straight eights.

May be i need to go out to my range at night and try some night shooting, and see what happens. I just dont want, in a situation that would require leathal force by me, to end up firing all six of my bullets at some dark target, to endup missing him all 6 times. This night shooting problem for revolvers applies on the streets as well. If im on the street, and i need to quickly get my gun and use it to save my life, my wife/1yearold son/some innnocent nearby i may not have time to grab a flashlight, so this becomes a concern on the street as well.

It mayvery well be marketing hype, but i guess the underlying question is, is it marketing hype based on facts and circumstances or is it truly crap.

[Rob Pincus]

As much as some camps don't like to hear it, we continue to find that most people shooting at human size targets at plausible defensive distances (especially inside the home distances) are able to get combat accurate hits without the need for a clear sight picture...
Extend the gun into and parallel with your line of sight, touch & press.

Many people are under the misconception that they need to have a clear sight-alignment/sight-picture every time they pull the trigger. This dependence creates a lack of confidence in just the type of situations that you are describing.

I just uploaded a new podcast a few moments ago discussing the concept of the Balance of Speed & Precision, it is a powerful concept that covers the understanding of the need for sighted AND unsighted practice. There is a ton of empirical evidence that says you can get combat accurate hits while focusing on a typical threat at typical defensive ranges.... but the best experience is to go and try it yourself.

-RJP

[mordis]

Ill definatly listen to it, later tho when i get some more free time. When i do go out to my range for practice, i practice both sighted and unsited. When i do my unsighted fire practice, i bring my firearm upto just below my eye level, about 1-2", give or take a .5" of my eye level. Usualy my gun is level with my mouth, around that area.
WHen i move my head, or eyes, to a different spot on my target, i move my gun a corrisponding amont. Most of the time, My bullets will hit were i look, or maybe a lil'bit high.

I definatly have to pay more attention to my trigger work then with sighted. If i fire really really fast, my accuracy goes out the window, but if i slow it down just a lil bit, not so much that it looks like slow fire, but more like, bang.bang.bang. instead of bang......bang....bang. I get great speed and accuracy, at least i think so.

I typicaly go through about 300 rounds of .38spc and 300 rounds of 9mm on my practice sessions. Tho i only get to do them once a month any more. To make matters worse, my m15-3 is all blued, so if i do any night shooting i probably wont beable to see it at all.

I guess with my point shooting, i rely more on my fists position then anything else, tho i dont know if im articulating how im doing it correctly or understandably.

I guess i need to add some low light and up the round count to 500/38
500/9mm per practice session.

[Rob Pincus]

Not surprising that your hitting a little high.. Humans develop the hand eye coordination to point accurately at things through a lack of spatial awareness and depth perception as babies... reaching for something that is actually outside of am infant's reach turns into pointing when Mom learns to bring the thing the baby is gesturing at.... This occurs in the line of sight and remains the easiest way for us to line our hands or a tool up with an object outside of our reach. Try getting the gun into your line of sight... exactly where it would be if you were focused on the sights.

As for the trigger control issue, its not that you magically need more trigger control when you are focusing on sight alignment, it is simply that without the artificial gauge in play, you haven't developed an intuitively smooth trigger pull. Your hand eye coordination is working to correct deviation if the sights start to move, when that is gone, you are apparently not pulling the trigger smoothly.



-RJP

[Dwight55]

I for one, will probably never have a set of night sights on any weapon I own. My reasoning is very simple, . . . if one needs night sights to see where they are shooting, . . . it is too dark to shoot: period.

Part of the responsibility of being a good gun owner is taking that responsibility inherent to ID'ing each and every target before pulling the trigger. Having a set of sights that allows one to effectively COM our shots into a large, dark object, . . . just may allow us to shoot our son, our daughter, our spouse, a neighbor who mistakenly is in the wrong house/apartment, . . . OR, . . . the coat someone else hung on the top of the door to the closet.

Long and short: if you are in Iraq, Afghanistan, or carry LEO credentials, I have no problem, . . . but if you are just John Q. Civilian, . . . I think you are making a large deposit into a big account of trouble by putting night sights on a weapon for CCW or HD.

Just my $.02, . . . rant off!!

May God bless,
Dwight

[HuntAndFish]

Replacement of plastic sights on Glocks with some steel is required IMO. I do that with night sights. Other than that, I can take or leave them.

[Colin Doyle]

In my opinion, sight picture is almost irrelevant unless you're in a home-defense situation and your state happens to have a castle doctrine. If you have time to draw your gun, raise it to chest/shoulder height, carefully align your sights, and squeeze the trigger before being knocked on your ass by a rapidly approaching assailant, you really have no business brandishing your weapon. The exception would be an armed perpetrator who's standing at a distance, setting himself up for a shot, and not backing down. How often does that happen to those of us who haven't had a fatwa declared on our heads?

Colin

[mordis]

Rob, I want to take a moment to thank you for your participation in this thread, it is helping me to refine my shooting skills even further, and for that i appreciate it.. You mention that i should bring the gun into my LOS, like i would normaly as if i was using the sights, I know this may seem stupid but i never even considered that before. Ill have to try it, and incorperate that into my training time now. Tho i have been shooting my way for a while, so it will definately take some extra effort to re adjust.

I was thinking, tho, that instead of night sites on a gun, maybe we should encourage people, who have rails on there guns to put rail lights on them. For home defence anyway. Tho, im not so sure about the whole muzzling of a non combatant target just to shine some light in that area. So maybe carrying a lil light is the only good option anymore.

Rob you mention trigger controll, lately i have been doing alot of dryfire, in both my carry guns, inorder to polish my trigger controll. Its definatly improving, but it seems im still getting a lil movement to the right. Im right handed, and thats my shooting hand. Its not much movement, barely noticable, only maybe a few degrees, but that would translate into a 1" or more movement on the target so that is unacceptable.

Maybe I need to try using the joint nearest the tip of my finger to pull the trigger instead of the area half way to my first finger join.
Its kind of disheartening, that after nearly 8 years of shooting im still having basic newb issues..

[Archie]

The very first 'night sights' of the modern era was the "L-Tronic" system, designed for and installed on - [drumroll] - revolvers. It had a LED front sight and an LED in the rear sight mechanism that lit up the rear notch. It had wires and a battery and a switch in the grips.

They were working on how to put it on auto pistols, arranging the wiring was the problem.

Shortly after that came the "Bar Dot" self luminant sights, also on revolvers.

The the auto pistol for cops revolution came into being and tritium sights and so forth and the manufacturers forgot about revolvers because the market just didn't exist.

Personally, I'm a no night sights guy. Usually problems are close to hand. If I have to make a long shot, I have a flashlight technique that covers my needs.

Caution: No everyone has my mindset or experience. Other solutions may vary with user's experience and may be superior to mine. Knock yourself out.

[mordis]

Dwight, while I agree with you, sometimes on the street, which alot of times is not the best lit of places, you do not have time to add a second draw stroke by reaching for the flashlight. Sure i can Id some gang banger, drawing his pistol at me, but if he is wearing dark clothing the sights will dissapear. Sure at 0 to say 21 feet, this may not be much of a issue, but sometimes your required to make a aimed shot, say a guy accross the street has a gun on a elderly couple and looks to you like he will kill them. You dont have time to run accross the street, you have to aim and fire from where your at if you want any hope of saving that elderly couples lives.

Flashlights may work in some situations, but in those times when you dont have enough time to add that second draw stroke, which is the flashlight, you have to do with out.

[mordis]

Rob, Last night I was practicing brining the gun into my line of sight. In areas of good light, i noticed that while i was focusing on the target i could still see my sights. If i was holding my gun in a tight grip, with my wrist locked i noticed my sites would mostly be lined up, if i were to glance at them. Tho in areas of little to no light, i was unable to see my gun sites at all, tho, i could tell if it was in my los. I definately need to train at night some more.

[David Armstrong]

well, I guess I'll drop the fly in the ointment. I like night sights, I recommend them, I use them. They don't cost that much, and given the fact that they do allow one to develop a more precise picture in times of darkness, they are a good thing. I don't know about all these other folks, but I've been in a number of situations where I couldn't see the standard sights but was still able to ID the target.

Regarding the revolver issue, I think it's already been hit--just no real call for it with the proliferation of autos out there. Personally I think a nice .38 with a Big Dot would be a great combo.

[Rob Pincus]

Dave, no doubt that they are an acceptable "extra" for the price, but the idea that they are "necessary" is what bugs me.... The real question for me is: In those situations where you could ID the target, but not see the sights, would you have needed a clear sight picture to get combat accurate hits?


Mordis,

The nuances of trigger control are best worked out by the individual, or diagnosed by an on-scene instructor... at a certain point, advice over the internet becomes little more than guessing. I will tell you that I advise students to shoot for real, not dry fire when they are trying to develop intuitive shooting skills (sighted or not). As long as the trigger pull is similar, even the recoil of a .22 revolver is going to be significantly more valuable to the realism of your training time than dry firing.

-RJP

[mordis]

Rob, i do plan on at some time visiting your facility, hopefully when i can get some vacation time lol. The only question i have is rob, you mention that, if one can id the threat, one can get combat accuracy with out the sites. The problem i see, is, if you cant easily see your fire arm, due to the dark nature of the opponents body, you wont have a easy time of brining the weapon up to los and using it effectively.

Tho with enough practice, im sure it will end up being automatic, and im sure 6hits in a 7" circle is acceptable combat accuracy, as long as one of those hits, is some were vital.

[Deaf Smith]

I like night sights to.

The only catch is, so few people actually practice in low light I'm sure they have only seen their night sights work in their bedroom... as they pick the gun up at night.

I really think everyone here ought to go to an indoor range, during low usage hours, and ask them to turn the lights down and do so practice.

I do!

[DonR101395]

Mepro makes front and rear night sights for K, L and N frame revolvers. Front sight only for the J frames.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/sto...2fNIGHT+SIGHTS