First Class III

AndABeer · May 3, 2000, 02:15 PM

I'm expecting a sizable bonus in the next couple a months. I talked to an old friend about getting my first full auto firearm. Being a Class III dealer (but not in my state unfortunately), he suggested that I look for an Uzi NIB. I kinda want a select fire weapon, so was leaning toward an MP5, but his opinion was that they are over priced. Would also consider AK or AR variants but leaning towards subguns. All sincere comments welcome.

Byron · May 3, 2000, 08:13 PM

I'm in much the same boat, so I'll share what I considered and then ended up (so far) doing and why. Those with far more experience can tell you if I've done anything right or just run off the rails.

I wanted to get something that would be fun to shoot, but also be a decent enough investment not to be a big money loser. (I have bought and sold quite a few guns without managing to ever do more than break even, and seldom that well.) If I could have anything within reason, it would be a 1928A1 Thompson SMG. But they are very pricey, and I think you need to know more than I do to commit $10k or more to something that might turn out to be not quite right and worth a couple of grand or more less than you thought. Plus, I don't know if I'd feel comfortable shooting something that expensive, so it might end up just sitting in the safe, which does nothing for the fun factor. At the other end are MAC-10's and 11's. I thought very seriously about a MAC-10 in .45ACP. But there seem to be so many around that it's hard to see them appreciating much. They also have an extremely high rate of fire; looking at a carbine model, all I could think about was how fast the barrel would heat up with all that money pouring out the end. I like the look and feel of the Reising M-50. They are affordable, but magazines seem to be getting scarce. I wonder if anyone has really tricked one out? I might end up with one of those yet. I shot an H&K MP-5, and it's a great gun. But very expensive and almost too nice. Sort of like the difference between a shovelhead Harley with drag pipes and a smooooth BMW; a matter of taste, I guess, but I'll take the Harley. Also, I don't know enough yet to have any feel for how the market thins out above $8,000, but I'd guess demand drops off up there.

So, I've ended up buying two Uzi SMG's. Both are registered receiver guns, one is a used (98%) IMI, the other a new Group Industries gun from Vector Arms. Neither has been delivered yet. My plan is to shoot the IMI and leave the other one NIB. Or, maybe I'll do a .45ACP conversion on one and shoot them both. Or, maybe I'll decide I like one much better and sell the other one. Dunno, have to see. But I figured Uzi's are a popular and proven gun that shoots cheap ammo and is in a price range where demand should stay strong, especially once the Vector inventory is sold off.

FWIW, which might not be much.

Byron

**4V50 Gary** · May 3, 2000, 08:43 PM

The beauty of the AR is that you can convert it from an M4 carbine, to M16 full size rifle, to varminter (and with mag blocks, to a SMG - have to check on legality of changing calibers). Given a budget, the M16 is pretty versatile. Mind you, I prefer the M2 since close encounters with full autos are not welcomed.

fal308 · May 4, 2000, 09:48 AM

This isn't intended as a flame so please don't take it personally.
I don't know really if you should figure on buying a FA with investment in mind. Since no new FA firearms can be made in the USA, or imported, for civilian consumption, the value on every single existing one will only go up as the supply dwindles due to collector value, breakage etc. Since the ban, not one FA has decreased in value. Even the MAC 11. What was a $200 junk subgun fifteen years ago is now going for around $1000 or so. In a few years it'll probably up to $1500, who knows? I've never heard of anyone losing money selling a FA. Also if you're concerned about how much you're going to spend "pouring money out the end", you're looking into the wrong class of firearms. Especially the subguns. FA is a very expensive facet of our hobby (that's why I don't have any currently

) so it should be taken for granted that you'll be turning money into lots of noise. The only way that you won't be spending handfuls of money is if the firearm sits in the safe.
If you talk to FA enthusiasts, you'll soon see that you won't want to shoot just one magazine full of ammo then put it away. Plus you must take into account miscellaneous costs; (besides ammo), magazines, parts, barrels (you will cook off a barrel sooner or later), secure storage etc.
So all in all, if you're getting a FA for recreational purposes, get it for fun. Think of it as a hobby and not a business venture. Most of all, have fun!

pete80 · May 4, 2000, 06:10 PM

Hey, you want the real deal or what? Once you fire an HK MP-5 (or variant) you'll never go back. The only draw backs are the price of these weapons are steap and aren't going down any time soon. Buy some parts and magazines now while you can. Everything that has been said about these weapons are true. They are the Ferrari's of the Subgun world. No [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]!

AndABeer · May 4, 2000, 07:06 PM

I never buy guns as an investment. If I purchase a firearm it is with the sole purpose of shooting the thing to pieces or at least having lots of fun trying. That said I guess I'll start shoping for a MP5. Saw one once with a semi, burst, and FA setting, pretty sweet looking. Just wish I knew more about all the different variants.

Byron Quick · May 5, 2000, 07:42 AM

As the owner of an IMI Uzi with a grand total of $975 invested including the $200 tax stamp and a H&K 91 purchased for less than $600, I am somewhat bemused by the whole "investment" thingie. I can just see all the "investors" frantically calling their congressmen lobbying against repeal of the new machine gun ban as well as the the 'assault' weapon ban. Get a grip guys.

The prices are the result of artificial manipulation of the market place by our benevolent government not from any intrinsic increase in value. If you read your history, you will soon realize that your "investments" have a foundation of sand. What if we suddenly get a government determined to follow both the letter and the spirit of the Constitution? Unlikely, considering the trends, but my "investments" in firearms are not financial investments.

------------------
Byron Quick

Ezeckial · May 5, 2000, 08:03 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spartacus:
I can just see all the "investors" frantically calling their congressmen lobbying against repeal of the new machine gun ban as well as the the 'assault' weapon ban. Get a grip guys.

The prices are the result of artificial manipulation of the market place by our benevolent government not from any intrinsic increase in value. If you read your history, you will soon realize that your "investments" have a foundation of sand. What if we suddenly get a government determined to follow both the letter and the spirit of the Constitution? Unlikely, considering the trends, but my "investments" in firearms are not financial investments.

[/quote]

The "Assault Rifle" Ban has a sunset provision in 2004. We aren't going to let that get extended. That's also why it's important the we oppose the magazine ban that GW Bush wants.
Another consideration is the "Emerson" case currently going to the Fifth Court of Appeals. This could be a watershed case for (or against) the individual right interpretation of the 2nd Amendment.

mussi · May 5, 2000, 02:00 PM

"Sunset provision"? Please explain to a non-US firearms enthusiast
(also cc via email since I don't look here every day).

BTR · May 7, 2000, 07:19 AM

The ban on un-PC semi-automatics and large magazines is set to expire in 2004, unless it gets renewed.

ctdonath · May 7, 2000, 08:06 AM

Others have observed that MGs are extremely expensive, between the limited supply, $200 increase every time it changes hands, and the "bullet hose" effect. If you really want Class III, take a moment to consider other non-MG items: destructive devices, short-barreled rifles/shotguns, smooth-barreled pistols, concealed firearms, silencers, and the like. Various nifty items are shown at http://www.securityarms.com/ and my personal pointless favorite is http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/144.htm - a lot cheaper than a MG with all the same BATF & Class III paperwork headaches you're just itching to experience.

kaveman9 · May 7, 2000, 02:46 PM

First C3 has to be an M16. With a 16, you can build it as a .223 or several pistol caliber subgun variants. The .22 kits are great fun. Parts and mags are cheap and plentiful. The .22 and most pistol calibers suppress easily.

May 3, 2000, 02:15 PM	#1
AndABeer Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2000 Location: Lakeland, TN Posts: 1,622	I'm expecting a sizable bonus in the next couple a months. I talked to an old friend about getting my first full auto firearm. Being a Class III dealer (but not in my state unfortunately), he suggested that I look for an Uzi NIB. I kinda want a select fire weapon, so was leaning toward an MP5, but his opinion was that they are over priced. Would also consider AK or AR variants but leaning towards subguns. All sincere comments welcome.

May 3, 2000, 08:13 PM	#2
Byron Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: Sandia Park, NM Posts: 270	I'm in much the same boat, so I'll share what I considered and then ended up (so far) doing and why. Those with far more experience can tell you if I've done anything right or just run off the rails. I wanted to get something that would be fun to shoot, but also be a decent enough investment not to be a big money loser. (I have bought and sold quite a few guns without managing to ever do more than break even, and seldom that well.) If I could have anything within reason, it would be a 1928A1 Thompson SMG. But they are very pricey, and I think you need to know more than I do to commit $10k or more to something that might turn out to be not quite right and worth a couple of grand or more less than you thought. Plus, I don't know if I'd feel comfortable shooting something that expensive, so it might end up just sitting in the safe, which does nothing for the fun factor. At the other end are MAC-10's and 11's. I thought very seriously about a MAC-10 in .45ACP. But there seem to be so many around that it's hard to see them appreciating much. They also have an extremely high rate of fire; looking at a carbine model, all I could think about was how fast the barrel would heat up with all that money pouring out the end. I like the look and feel of the Reising M-50. They are affordable, but magazines seem to be getting scarce. I wonder if anyone has really tricked one out? I might end up with one of those yet. I shot an H&K MP-5, and it's a great gun. But very expensive and almost too nice. Sort of like the difference between a shovelhead Harley with drag pipes and a smooooth BMW; a matter of taste, I guess, but I'll take the Harley. Also, I don't know enough yet to have any feel for how the market thins out above $8,000, but I'd guess demand drops off up there. So, I've ended up buying two Uzi SMG's. Both are registered receiver guns, one is a used (98%) IMI, the other a new Group Industries gun from Vector Arms. Neither has been delivered yet. My plan is to shoot the IMI and leave the other one NIB. Or, maybe I'll do a .45ACP conversion on one and shoot them both. Or, maybe I'll decide I like one much better and sell the other one. Dunno, have to see. But I figured Uzi's are a popular and proven gun that shoots cheap ammo and is in a price range where demand should stay strong, especially once the Vector inventory is sold off. FWIW, which might not be much. Byron

May 3, 2000, 08:43 PM	#3
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,832	The beauty of the AR is that you can convert it from an M4 carbine, to M16 full size rifle, to varminter (and with mag blocks, to a SMG - have to check on legality of changing calibers). Given a budget, the M16 is pretty versatile. Mind you, I prefer the M2 since close encounters with full autos are not welcomed.

May 4, 2000, 09:48 AM	#4
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	This isn't intended as a flame so please don't take it personally. I don't know really if you should figure on buying a FA with investment in mind. Since no new FA firearms can be made in the USA, or imported, for civilian consumption, the value on every single existing one will only go up as the supply dwindles due to collector value, breakage etc. Since the ban, not one FA has decreased in value. Even the MAC 11. What was a $200 junk subgun fifteen years ago is now going for around $1000 or so. In a few years it'll probably up to $1500, who knows? I've never heard of anyone losing money selling a FA. Also if you're concerned about how much you're going to spend "pouring money out the end", you're looking into the wrong class of firearms. Especially the subguns. FA is a very expensive facet of our hobby (that's why I don't have any currently ) so it should be taken for granted that you'll be turning money into lots of noise. The only way that you won't be spending handfuls of money is if the firearm sits in the safe. If you talk to FA enthusiasts, you'll soon see that you won't want to shoot just one magazine full of ammo then put it away. Plus you must take into account miscellaneous costs; (besides ammo), magazines, parts, barrels (you will cook off a barrel sooner or later), secure storage etc. So all in all, if you're getting a FA for recreational purposes, get it for fun. Think of it as a hobby and not a business venture. Most of all, have fun!

May 4, 2000, 06:10 PM	#5
pete80 Senior Member Join Date: July 4, 1999 Posts: 454	Hey, you want the real deal or what? Once you fire an HK MP-5 (or variant) you'll never go back. The only draw backs are the price of these weapons are steap and aren't going down any time soon. Buy some parts and magazines now while you can. Everything that has been said about these weapons are true. They are the Ferrari's of the Subgun world. No [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]!

May 4, 2000, 07:06 PM	#6
AndABeer Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2000 Location: Lakeland, TN Posts: 1,622	I never buy guns as an investment. If I purchase a firearm it is with the sole purpose of shooting the thing to pieces or at least having lots of fun trying. That said I guess I'll start shoping for a MP5. Saw one once with a semi, burst, and FA setting, pretty sweet looking. Just wish I knew more about all the different variants.

May 5, 2000, 07:42 AM	#7
Byron Quick Staff In Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Waynesboro, Georgia, USA Posts: 2,361	As the owner of an IMI Uzi with a grand total of $975 invested including the $200 tax stamp and a H&K 91 purchased for less than $600, I am somewhat bemused by the whole "investment" thingie. I can just see all the "investors" frantically calling their congressmen lobbying against repeal of the new machine gun ban as well as the the 'assault' weapon ban. Get a grip guys. The prices are the result of artificial manipulation of the market place by our benevolent government not from any intrinsic increase in value. If you read your history, you will soon realize that your "investments" have a foundation of sand. What if we suddenly get a government determined to follow both the letter and the spirit of the Constitution? Unlikely, considering the trends, but my "investments" in firearms are not financial investments. ------------------ Byron Quick

May 5, 2000, 08:03 AM	#8
Ezeckial Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2000 Location: Windsor. PA, USA Posts: 394	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spartacus: I can just see all the "investors" frantically calling their congressmen lobbying against repeal of the new machine gun ban as well as the the 'assault' weapon ban. Get a grip guys. The prices are the result of artificial manipulation of the market place by our benevolent government not from any intrinsic increase in value. If you read your history, you will soon realize that your "investments" have a foundation of sand. What if we suddenly get a government determined to follow both the letter and the spirit of the Constitution? Unlikely, considering the trends, but my "investments" in firearms are not financial investments. [/quote] The "Assault Rifle" Ban has a sunset provision in 2004. We aren't going to let that get extended. That's also why it's important the we oppose the magazine ban that GW Bush wants. Another consideration is the "Emerson" case currently going to the Fifth Court of Appeals. This could be a watershed case for (or against) the individual right interpretation of the 2nd Amendment.

May 5, 2000, 02:00 PM	#9
mussi Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2000 Location: Berne, Switzerland Posts: 757	"Sunset provision"? Please explain to a non-US firearms enthusiast (also cc via email since I don't look here every day).

May 7, 2000, 07:19 AM	#10
BTR Senior Member Join Date: July 13, 1999 Posts: 570	The ban on un-PC semi-automatics and large magazines is set to expire in 2004, unless it gets renewed.

May 7, 2000, 08:06 AM	#11
ctdonath Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 1999 Posts: 1,904	Others have observed that MGs are extremely expensive, between the limited supply, $200 increase every time it changes hands, and the "bullet hose" effect. If you really want Class III, take a moment to consider other non-MG items: destructive devices, short-barreled rifles/shotguns, smooth-barreled pistols, concealed firearms, silencers, and the like. Various nifty items are shown at http://www.securityarms.com/ and my personal pointless favorite is http://www.securityarms.com/galleryfiles/144.htm - a lot cheaper than a MG with all the same BATF & Class III paperwork headaches you're just itching to experience.

May 7, 2000, 02:46 PM	#12
kaveman9 Junior Member Join Date: March 4, 2000 Posts: 5	First C3 has to be an M16. With a 16, you can build it as a .223 or several pistol caliber subgun variants. The .22 kits are great fun. Parts and mags are cheap and plentiful. The .22 and most pistol calibers suppress easily.