AR-15 Build/Optic Advice

[Sharkbite]

Jimro..

Roger that. I certainly was not trying to offend you. I think this is just a case of different strokes for different folks.

[Jimro]

It looks like he is just timing his speed, with raising the rifle from ready, aiming, and firing.

That kind of shooting, a red dot and low power scope would have little difference between them. It's also not relevant to a dynamic situation, like actively engaging a moving and shooting target.

It takes no account of any position other than a standard stance.

If I am wrong, and missed some info, let me know.

I don't think you missed any info, but it is kinda hard to set up a "relevant dynamic situation" where you can run the shot timer by yourself. If you want something other than a single guy testing out what works best for himself, we'll have to look at a different venue.

And speaking of a different venue...if you look at what 3 gun competitions as some sort of proxy for a dynamic environment where people will have to take a variety of shooting stances during more challenging stages, we might be able to see what sort of optic is producing more winners than not. Now I don't like to make the assumption that a competition skill or piece of gear automatically makes something a good combat or carry piece of gear, but looking at a lot of the pictures of who is winning in 3 Gun competitions you'll see a lot more low powered scopes than you will red dots or eotechs.

Jerry Miculek 1-6 variable Vortex Razor and Julie Golob was using a Leupold last I checked. Rick Birdsall was using a Vortex Strikefire two years ago, but now it looks like he's rocking a Vortex Razor same as Jerry if the rifle he's using as the banner on his facebook page is the same one he's using. Take it with a grain of salt, do you own research, but at least in the 3Gun game where shooting position can be highly variable, target size highly variable, and times are recorded and misses count against you, the low powered scope seems to be a better option than a no magnification red dot or eotech style optic.

Jimro

[marine6680]

I would say that a 3 gun competition or other shooting sport where accuracy and speed are important... Using a 1-4x or similar can work well. It can also simulate use in the real world... Only if you are in complete control of the situation.

Sure, you are moving through a simulated environment, but at no time are you fearful of your life... at no time are you moving in a manner designed to actually clear a building of hostile people.

Speed is important with taking the baddies by surprise, but if things don't go perfect, you lose momentum, you lose an edge. And if you have no idea where the baddies are, in a multi room building... your edge shrinks.

Just poping around a corner, with no idea where a hostile is, or if there are more than one... and if also doing this with a hostile that knows you are coming and from what direction...

You can see how that is not going to really work.


Meaning all that high speed running and gunning you see in competition is not realistic

CQB type shooting is extremely difficult and dangerous, and that is when it is done with a well equipped team. One that has tools to aid them by disorientating the hostiles or masking their movements. Even then, the likelihood of getting bogged down at a hallway or other choke point is a real strong possibility. You are not going to be presenting any more of your body than is absolutely necessary once the baddie is firing at you.

Now try doing it alone...


This reality is why the bunker method is the prefered method by experts. Risking a gun fight to protect your TV is dumb. You bunker and prepare to defend your life should it be necessary.

But there are times this is not prudent or an option. For example... If there are others in the home dependent on you for protection, you have to go to them. You may be forced into a confrontation on the way...


So, for close quarters... which is 99.9% of the possible (and the most likely) defensive encounters... Choose a red dot.

If you are out in the open, moving from point A to B, possibly patrolling an area, and the likelihood of you needing to enter close quarters danger zones, is low... get a 1-4x for some versatility.

As an aside...
(Though in that situation, I would prefer to not be alone, and have a few people with me... A couple people with red dots, maybe a third with a higher caliber rifle to punch through light cover better, and a fourth with a low powered scope to take advantage of extra precision when the situation calls for it. Maybe combine the third and fourth into one, and throw in a third red dot... If knowingly going into a dangerous situation, get all the advantage you can)

[Jimro]

What you are describing is a deliberate battle drill 6.

I don't think that is a likely defensive scenario, in fact I would call that the absolute worst case scenario for civil unrest. But if you were needing to go through a building and kill lots of people as fast as you can to gain the tactical advantage, I agree, a red dot sight is the best option for that.

But I also agree that it is stupid to try to do that alone, and I maintain that isn't what you should be building a defensive firearm to do. Then again, if you were I'd say body armor and backup pistol would be better purchases than any optic.

For a US Citizen in Georgia? I won't say "never" but I will say in all the scenarios I can think of covering the terrain from Atlanta to Valdosta, a scope is the better choice most of the time. Lots of forest, lots of open farmland, a few minor cities. Typically civil unrest in the US has a very low loss of life, with much more property damage than death toll, and past history is no predictor of future performance....

Jimro

[marine6680]

The conversion veered into the hypothetical a bit there, as we were discussing the merits of low power scope in active fighting scenarios.


It's all down to what you want the rifle for.

Defense in your home, a red dot is best.

Moving across open terrain, a scope may be useful, but a red dot would work well too. Most of the time you are avoiding confrontation, and any that happens is just as likely to be an up close surprise as anything else.

[WVMountaineer]

I use the Nikon P series scopes on my AR's Built for hunting. Good crisp cross hairs. Fine reticle for distance shooting. Very clear optics.

FWIW, if I were building a rifle that was to be used for self defense, it wouldn't hold any sighting apparatus other than a flip up back sight and a red dot type optic. Assuming you had a front sight as the gas block. It is still a dual purpose weapon set up like that. Once shooting peeps you'll be amazed at how accurate they can be at distance shooting. Plus, a red dot keeps the close stuff honest too.

I own multiple completed AR's that are built for a purpose. Hunting and defense. All are set up accordingly. I'm quickly coming to the conclusion that If you intend on having multiple use calibers on the AR platform, a good lower will put you in the multiple gun group much cheaper. Just switch them out as you need to. You could include your defensive upper in that group too. God Bless

[ronl]

Check out the Vortex Strike Eagle. Lot of scope for the money. The 1-4,1-6 type scopes add a lot of versatility, and I think is the best option for a general purpose rifle. The only drawback is the added weight, which can be substantial, depending on which one is purchased.

[Ben Towe]

Simple answer? Colt LE6920 OEM1 (no furniture, A2 front sight) from Gunbroker for $799, stock set of your choice, Vickers Combat Application Sling, Magpul MBUS rear sight, Aimpoint PRO if you're on a budget, Aimpoint M4/M4s if not. I recommend getting a LaRue mount for the optic, but the Aimpoint one is perfectly serviceable as well. That setup is battle ready, no muss, no fuss. If you want a free float rail buy the OEM2 (low-pro gas block) and put a good rail and MBUS front sight on it. A big plus to LaRue mounts is that they retain zero when removed and replaced, so technically you could run two optics with those mounts, both zeroed to the same rifle, and easily changed as needed. Expensive, but cheaper (and easier to deploy) than two purpose built rifles.