A very strange observation....

[loademwell]

A friend of myne's father passed away a few months ago... And the friend asked if I wanted some odd and ends reloading items that were laying about.
"Sure"
In this mess of items, was a whole bunch of 30-06 loaded rounds... They were very beat up and dirty. So i figured I would pull the rounds and do some recycling.
I can tell his loads (which I remeasured and compared to data charts) and seemed to be sitting pretty. Reloaded those bullets (about 80 of them) and found that however he reloaded them, they were all +/- .1 of a grain. GOOD!
Finished that lot and started pulling some odd and end ones that were in a box. I could tell that these were different from the OAL and the projectile looked different. But what I came up with, is that these must be from Factory... After pulling about 10 and keeping a log of how much powder each had in it and exactly how much the bullet weighed, I found that they were all way diff. (The powder looked to be the same ---I know, I know.. never try to tell what a powder is by its looks---) Here is some of the data that I got for a 180 SP
53.4
63.4
59.2
63.3
53.1
53.4
65.0
54.3
64.4
All of these powders looked like tiny balls. not the long ones that I am used to seeing in 30-06's

Some of those loads look SCARY!! 65.0 grains? I haven't found one load in any of my books that go over 60.0 grains....

Has anyone ever pulled factory rounds and did a comparison? I would be interested in seeing if this happens a lot or am I pulling rounds made by someone who didn't have a scale or what?

[Idaho Spud]

Aren't ya glad you didn't just go out and shoot them? How old are they? I have an old (1963) Lyman manual with some old powders I'll check.....

...found a load with "4831" with a max load of 62 gr with 173-180 gr. bullet. I'm pretty sure this was old surplus military 4831 before IMR (or maybe even duPont cannister). Only load in that (above 60 grs.) range with 180's.

[loademwell]

Good point on the age... If I recall, I think all the rounds said "30-06 SPRG R.P" Have no idea what the R.P would mean.
Isn't 4831 a long powder? The powder that was in these looked very small and round....

Yes, Im glad I didn't go to the range with them....

[Bullet Bill]

R-P is Remington Peters

[Idaho Spud]

RP = Remington/Peters? 4831 was tubular so don't know what you have, but I wouldn't expect good groups with those loads!

BB beat me to it.

[Nick_C_S]

Has anyone ever pulled factory rounds and did a comparison?

I have. It's been quite a few years. But I have. They were pistol rounds - 38's or 357's - I can't remember.

What I do remember is that they varied in powder weight by a good 3 or 4 1/10ths. (Which is quite a bit for pistol)

I've also measured OAL's of semi-auto rounds and got variances in the +/- .008 neighborhood.

And for this reason, I often proclaim that my (or most any conscientious loader's) ammo is better than factory. The seemingly prevailing assumption that factory ammo is "better," is a myth.

[LE-28]

And for this reason, I often proclaim that my (or most any conscientious loader's) ammo is better than factory.

Are you comparing your findings to practice ammo? I know of some match grade and premium hunting ammo that will give your ammo a serious run for your money. Any you may loose.

[Powermwt]

You are describing spherical powder. Remington did not use it as far as I know.

I think what may of happened is that 30-06 case was reloaded with WW 785 using a scoop in lieu of weighing.

The Winchester Western Ball Powder loading data (1976) shows for a 180gr. Silver Tip bullet to use 55.5 gr. of 785 for 2540 fps at 45,500 c.u.p..



Lee had a whole series of scoops to use for different powder/loading combinations back before everyone had a scale.



The scoops were not too precise.

I spent a lot of break time in college in the 1970s reloading 30-06 with lee dies and a hammer.

[Idaho Spud]

I still have those scoops and although of course not as accurate as a decent measure, I can still get better than +/- 5 grains any day, esp. with ball like 785. Guy must've been getting his scoops mixed up!

[pathdoc]

Not too precise, no, but still better than a kitchen measuring spoon for getting close to your desired loads!!!

[wild willy]

Scoops are as good as the person using them.Like was said not as accurate as measure but with good technique can be very good.

[The mad scientist]

Moisture can play a factor... especially since you don't know how these rounds were stored

[44 AMP]

But what I came up with, is that these must be from Factory...

First off, why did you think they were factory rounds?

You got odds & ends of a reloader's stuff, you could get absolutely anything!

I've been reloading for over 40 years, currently set up to do over 30 different rifle and handgun rounds. In my "stash" of odds&ends, you can find all kinds of stuff, some loaded by me, some not.

Many times I have gotten ammo in different lots of stuff I got, no idea what it is loaded with, or by whom. Never to be fired, only to be broken down and salvageable components reused. But a lot of times what happens is it gets in a box, and never again sees the light of day....

R-P is Remington-Peters, and brass cased factory ammo is loaded with brass colored primers. Essentially, if the primers are not brass colored (there are variations in shade) it is a reload. Brass colored primers do not guarantee its a factory load, it could be a reload with a Remington primer. But if its RP ammo, and the primer is silver colored, Remington didn't load it.

Factories buy powder by the boxcar load. Wide variations in lots are not a tremendous issue for them. They load the ammo (by volume, not weight), based on their own ballistic & pressure tests. Each lot can be a different weight charge, and while the powder can look identical to what we buy as reloaders, it can be very different in performance.

What the factories look for is what ever charge size of lot#1234 powder gives them 2900fps @50k psi. This gets loaded until used up. Then Lot#5678 (which has been tested while loading the previous lot) gets used. It may be 43.5gr of #1234 and 48gr of #5678 in the case, what ever gives the desired speed and pressure.

Ammo in a box in a reloader's hoarde could be factory rounds, and each from different production lots, collected here and there over the years, and simply put in the same box for storage.

it could be a combination of that and reloads in the same box. Unless you can talk to the guy, you simply never can know for absolute certain about a lot of it.

Pull the bullets, toss the powder (don't bother worrying what it is, we can never know, short of a detailed laboratory analysis), see if the brass is worth saving.

[James K]

44 AMP is correct. Factories load ammunition to match their published load data, not vice versa. They test each powder lot to do that and don't care about the actual weight of the charge.

In addition, mass produced ammo is not always consistent in velocity. Sometimes a box of ammo (especially the "white box" kind) will vary 50 fps or more from one round to the next in the same box.

Jim

[FrankenMauser]

Ammo in a box in a reloader's hoarde could be factory rounds, and each from different production lots, collected here and there over the years, and simply put in the same box for storage.

it could be a combination of that and reloads in the same box. Unless you can talk to the guy, you simply never can know for absolute certain about a lot of it.

Yep.
I have a few boxes of '60s-vintage .243 Winchester that were given to me (three times removed from the original owner/reloader).

One of the boxes meets all of the above criteria: there are 2 different Super-X factory loads, as well as three different reloads. But, without careful examination, they all look factory-fresh.

One of the other boxes has been pulled down, but was a collection of mixed 'vintage' brass that the label showed to be loaded with "33 gr 3031" and "80 gr SP". However, those cartridges actually had 36 gr of extruded powder; AND there were three different bullet weights. The guy that reloaded the ammo seemed to use nothing but 3031, so that's probably what was in there ... IF they were even his reloads. Powder choice aside, there were 80 gr, 87 gr, and 100 gr bullets sitting on top of that 36 gr powder charge, which is a max load for even 75 gr bullets (if it was 3031).

There's no way of knowing what events took place to get those boxes of ammo to the state in which I analyzed them. ....Which is why there's no way I trust any ammunition coming from another reloader. I even pull down my father's reloads....

[44 AMP]

My Father apparently had a bad experience with a reload when he was a young man (never told me exactly what), and for the rest of his life, NEVER fired a reloaded round. Not even mine. He was ok with me shooting reloads I made, in his guns, but he would never shoot them.

He was also the kind of guy who only shot one load. One bullet weight, in one brand of factory ammo. And the times he missed were very few indeed.

Can't begin to tell you the number of times I've gotten old boxes of "factory" ammo with mixed headstamp cases. Or of the same headstamp, but clearly different production lots. R-P (dash) and R.P (dot) are Remingtons, but the different headstamp means different production batches).