Barnes bullets for hunting

[dgc940]

Snuffy what distance were those 3
shot at?

[jsr76]

Hey boys, I like a good discussion. First of all, I don't want an arguement to break out over this, but if it does I'll keep on reading! This is why we do these little letters. To debate with people we might not meet in real life in a million years. So far, I believe everyone has positively contributed to this thread. I learned long ago that a man, or woman, can have a strong bias as to what they like. Thats awesome! I respect everyone's opinion, and you know what? So far, I agree with everything that has been stated. I've seen everything you guys have explained played out in my own experiences. I've taken the same shots on game, except none larger than whitetail. I've used 7mm Rem. Mag., 30-06, .243 Win. .308Win., .222 Rem., my favorite so far the 25-06 Rem. and missed once with the big hammer, the .300 Win. I only started this thread to see if someone out there had any info on actually using the Barnes TSX bullets because I just loaded my first batch of them the other day. The biggest reason I want the strength they offer is so I don't ruin so much of the eating. It sounds like you boys are all educated on bullet performance so you can understand what I mean. Plus sometimes I will be up close to Mr.Buck, and I need that bullet to go end to end on him regardless of impact speed. Now i don't want to get scolded here because if you've ever been in the thick stuff when you caught up with the Ole' boy you've been following and have to shoot from the wrong end of him, You know what I mean. Otherwise I'd never do it. That is what I'm trying to learn this information for. So that if it happens, I have enough bullet. Keep the chatter coming. I'll talk about anything I know anything about. Thanks for the fun, JSR76.

[VaFisher]

Weight retention in the mid 80%, expansion of over .800 on all three. Penetration was into the third jug.

I tried the ballistic tip,(bt) and the sst in the same weight, velocity and same rifle,(my browning 300 WSM). ALL of them lost their jacket, the only piece of lead bigger than sand was the base, about 25 grains!


Quote:
Snuffy, Get over it. In your own words and pic's that you show.

OIC, I hoped,(thought), he was asking for specific info. Sorry, but I do try to point out misinformation when I see it. As far as what you said, I would have expected that heavier SST to have completely exited a deer of that size. I have no doubt, that if that animal had been at 200 yards, the bullet would have gone clear through.

I switched to the interbond exclusivly in all the rifles I load for in our hunting party. Since then we have NOT experienced the meat loss we were seeing with those fragmenting bullets.
Snuffy, that's what I am talking about a very good post. Good information that we can work with, thanks.

[Shoney]

VaFisher: Don't you know anything??? Stabbing a deer with an ice pick can cause copious amounts of meat damage. Just consider all the meat that is going to be damaged when he gores you, and slices you up with his hooves, and that's not considering the damage to your hands and knees as you fall over downed logs and brush in you pell-mell attempt to escape his wrath.

[Pointer]

If I can get 100% retention... that's what I want...

I want to be able to take any angled shot from a "Texas Heart shot" to a broadside and still have clear-thru penetration...

I have gotten one or the other with one bullet or another... But, I have never gotten both with anything but a Barnes X-bullet...

I cannot wait to use their new MRX which is a ballistic tip, tungsten cored X-bullet that will not disintegrate...

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/36237-54676-1825.html

To me, that's the value of an all copper bullet...

[snuffy]

Snuffy what distance were those 3
shot at?

DGC, those were shot at 100 yds. Instrumantal velocity,(pact chrono), was 15 feet from the muzzle IIRC 3100 fps. I also did some nosler accu-bonds a year after those were shot, when both Hornady and Nosler came out with 180 grainers in their bonded bullets.





The interbond was at 77% retention, the noslers were at 65%.

[VaFisher]

VaFisher: Don't you know anything??? Stabbing a deer with an ice pick can cause copious amounts of meat damage. Just consider all the meat that is going to be damaged when he gores you, and slices you up with his hooves, and that's not considering the damage to your hands and knees as you fall over downed logs and brush in you pell-mell attempt to escape his wrath.
__________________

Still got me laughing on that one.

[Pointer]

I met a hunter on a private ranch who had shot a 6-point bull elk with a .308 165gr Nosler Partition at 100 yards... straight on, in the chest...

He could not find the elk...

It was almost dark and I gave him a ride back to camp, and the next day all the camps nearby went out looking for this man's bull...

We found it at least 450 yards from POI just as some horseback hunters were about to hang their tag on it...

We checked the shot placement and it was very well placed... but the bullet had only barely penetrated into the vitals...

I'd rather have seen the same shot and same bullet fired with a 30-06... or better yet a Barnes X.

He almost lost his bull to the horsemen and it took a lot of people doing a lot of searching to locate the bull...

YES, YES, I have seen elk dropped very nicely with .308's and with NosParts and, as I said, I've used them for close to forty years... BUT, we can't always expect the broadside/boileroom shot...

Just an FYI... My first elk was a small spiker, shot from the rear at a quartering angle and the bullet had reached through the rearmost rib and through the opposite foremost rib... the empty cup was lodged inside, against the opposite shoulder... he jumped once about 20 feet and hit the ground dead...

Penetration is very important... weight-retention is very important... and together they make a very nice combination.

Barnes TSX or MRX is the way to go on large mulies and bull elk as well as potentially dangerous game.

[cheygriz]

I like using the same bullet weight on all game. In the past, I used 150 grainers in my .30-06 for deer, and 165 or 180 for elk/moose.

Now that Barnes has the "X" bullet out, I use 150 Speer on mule deer, and 150 "X" on elk. Worked up loads to same point of impact. No scope change.

Now, when deer season closes, I put the cartridges with the 150 Speers back in the cabinet and load with 150 Barnes "X" for elk. And in my experience, the 150 Barnes "X" will outpenetrate the 180 Nosler Partition.

Never lost a critter shot with an "X" bullet.

[jsr76]

Cheygriz, thanks for the info! You are telling me a BarnesTSX in 150 gr. kills really big game. That's awesome because all I have are whitetails and I'm sure it will hammer them. I had tried 168's but I'm always ready to drop bullet weight with the .300. If you have any .300 Winchester Magnum data I'd be really grateful. 150's kick less than 168's. I believe that the TSX may be a keeper for accuracy due to it's one piece design. I know others shoot well, but how much inner core machining can you do before you are not perfect anymore. These are one piece. I'll give up B.C. for perfection.

[sasquatch]

And in my experience, the 150 Barnes "X" will outpenetrate the 180 Nosler Partition.

Could be, but ballistically-speaking, any 150gr. bullet is a dog compared to a 180gr. bullet in BC, SD and energy retention. For whatever that is worth.......

I stick with 180gr. in all my .308 caliber loads for that reason.

[Pointer]

jsr76

I had tried 168's

Be careful here... the 168 is a target bullet and is thin jacketed...
It has less than optimum penetration and is very poor at weight retention...

It also makes a messy kill... and a cruel non-lethal hit...

[jsr76]

I am talking about a 168 grain Barnes TSX. They claim to be a hunting bullet.

[mrawesome22]

I've had poor accuracy with every Barnes bullet I've tried.

[Pointer]

I am talking about a 168 grain Barnes TSX. They claim to be a hunting bullet.

They are...I jump to a conclusion... sorry.

I've had poor accuracy with every Barnes bullet I've tried.

I have heard this before... I think it was known for being difficult to reload with...

I think that problem was cured by the grooved rings in the TSX
And now, the MRX

I also heard that the problem was not universal... but just in certain guns...
I really don't know... for sure.

[dgc940]

Check this out
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...43/m/193100756

[JD 500]

I've found the Barnes TSX to be ideal for my Browing BAR.
The OAL I need to load for the BAR is limited by magazine length, which happens to be the sammi spec for 300 win mag.

I called Barnes, and they said thier bullets should actually be loaded SHORTER for best accuracy, as opposed to all other bullets I am aware of.
(Most bullets like very little "jump" to the rifling, which is why the BR guys load right off the lands)

I had previously loaded on the long side for my bolt action, and didn't like the accuracy of the Barnes (Certainly when considering price). Once I talked to Barnes and found out these bullets group better with more jump, and loaded some that way, I found the TSX to be THE most accurate load in both my BAR and Bolt (Tikka T3).

One of the other advantages (I can not confirm "a)" below as I do not have a chrono) is that those little rings in the bullet base supposedly create less friction down the barrel and a) move faster and b) can be loaded with a higher charge before seeing any pressure signs .(" b)", I can confirm ).

Clearly, based on the post previous to mine, if Nosler just intro'd an all copper bullet, Barnes must have something going eh ?

Why not just splurge on one box, load em up as instructed (shorter and hotter) and see how you like them.

[Pointer]

dgc940
Looking at your link, I see fragmented Barnes TSX...

I have never heard of this... Is it common?

I have a friend who is an excellent shot... who has used the old style X-bullet and found that they weren't expanding efficiently enough to shock the elk...and just needle-holed them like an old 7RemMag.

After a few difficult trackings, he gave the X's up... and went back to the NosParts... I am at a loss to explain his bad experiences....

My question is, did they fail to expand properly?... or did they fragment?... or what...

Still I think the MRX isn't likely to have that problem... but the "fragging" concerns me... if it's not a hoax.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...43/m/193100756

The whole reputation of the Barnes X biullets is based on the "FACT?" that they retain 99+% of their original weight... and do not disintegrate!

A little HELP please?

[dgc940]

Man Pointer I dont know if it's common or true. I do think bullets work differently in different calibers though. Like engines some turn out junk and some good like old 302's,318's and 327's bore to stroke relationship work good together.
I just seen the new Noslers on another site and thought it interesting!
they are not solid copper they say! and the new Barnes varmint grenades have no lead in them they are copper and alloy. I do believe leads days are numbered!

[Pointer]

dgc940

I just came home from the range where I met a man who uses Barnes TSX extensively...

He has taken more than 30 elk using (My EDIT) Barnes X bullets and said he has never had a failure...has never seen anything but excellent mushrooming from them.

I asked him about the fragmenting and he said if it happened at all... it was hitting something very hard... like a bone... or cinder block.

He said he has seen where the Old Style X bullets needle-holed when going extremely fast (Over 3000 fps) and at medium game (Deer) inside 100 yards... BUT...the animal died quickly nevertheless...

He also recommends the Berger one-peice bullets... if you can find them... and if you reload...


jsr76 this is especially for you...

JD 500

I called Barnes, and they said thier bullets should actually be loaded SHORTER for best accuracy, as opposed to all other bullets I am aware of.

For the .300 Win Mag... My new friend said to seat the bullets deep with 30+ thousandths freebore! I saw his groups! (5 Rounds covered by a quarter.)

And, if you purchase ready-made "store-boughten" TSX's mic the OAL to make sure the bullets are seated deeply enough...

He also likes what he hears about the new MRX's...

Me2

[cheygriz]

Cheygriz, thanks for the info! You are telling me a BarnesTSX in 150 gr. kills really big game

Yep. But they penetrate like all hell and get out! I use 150 Speers for mule deer becuase they open up quickly, and seem to do as good, or even better on small animals like deer. I save the Barnes bullets for the big stuff.

I've had poor accuracy with every Barnes bullet I've tried.

I did too, at first. Barnes bullets leave a LOT of jacket fouling. If you shoot very many, you really should clean out the copper fouling with something like Sweet's 7.62 or the Outer's "Foul out" electrochemical bore cleaner.

Could be, but ballistically-speaking, any 150gr. bullet is a dog compared to a 180gr. bullet in BC, SD and energy retention. For whatever that is worth.......

There's no question that the 180 has a higher BC, SD, and energy retention. But the "old style" "X" that I've been using will completely penetrate an elk at 300 yards, which I consider MY maximum range, and put them down. I guess that while I completely agree with you on SD and BC, I don't see any advantage for myself to the 180. If I still used a lead core bullet, I'd definitely use a 180 though.

[jsr76]

Thanks for the great reply Pointer. I may have to play with my seating depth just to see if it seems to relieve chamber pressure some by going deeper. I started out with my first few loads for this bullet using a load charge weight I've used on several different 168 grain bullets before. However, with the TSX it was too warm. Sticky bolt lift, shiny spots on case head. Went home and pulled the rest of them apart and decreased charge by 1 full grain. Took them out yesterday and shot. A couple of them were still stiff on the bolt. In both sessions the last shell deprimed. I know this is too much pressure but why is the pressure increasing that much in only 5 rounds. I'm going to keep cutting back until I see, feel no pressure issues then tweek it for accuracy from there. I just couldn't believe how much less powder these loads will tolerate. I need a chronograph. That would help me to see if things are running a bit too strong. Accuracy seems good. I shot my steel gong plate from 100 steps with the TSX. I have never found any piece of any lead bullet I've hit the plate with at any range out to 500. They all blow apart. The TSX hit at 3000 f.p.s. I would say, for sure. It is now a permanent piece of my gong because it is the size of a nickel and totally embedded into the steel plate. That's a tough bullet.

[dgc940]

Guys I did some test yesterday on the Barnes X bullets with a
7 mag and hand loads at 500 yards and the results were not good!
No penetration not even movement of the target!
tomorrow I'm going to try it again with something more fragile than quail eggs !

I'm sorry I couldn't resist

[snuffy]

Thanks for the great reply Pointer. I may have to play with my seating depth just to see if it seems to relieve chamber pressure some by going deeper. I started out with my first few loads for this bullet using a load charge weight I've used on several different 168 grain bullets before. However, with the TSX it was too warm. Sticky bolt lift, shiny spots on case head. Went home and pulled the rest of them apart and decreased charge by 1 full grain. Took them out yesterday and shot. A couple of them were still stiff on the bolt. In both sessions the last shell deprimed. I know this is too much pressure but why is the pressure increasing that much in only 5 rounds. I'm going to keep cutting back until I see, feel no pressure issues then tweek it for accuracy from there. I just couldn't believe how much less powder these loads will tolerate. I need a chronograph. That would help me to see if things are running a bit too strong. Accuracy seems good. I shot my steel gong plate from 100 steps with the TSX. I have never found any piece of any lead bullet I've hit the plate with at any range out to 500. They all blow apart. The TSX hit at 3000 f.p.s. I would say, for sure. It is now a permanent piece of my gong because it is the size of a nickel and totally embedded into the steel plate. That's a tough bullet.

The bold area above is NOT A how-to-guide on how to work up a load! JSR, you are going to have gun parts imbeddin in your anatomy if you keep doing this!

With ANY new load, you start at the recommended starting load for any given powder/bullet combo, then work-up to maximum, watching for pressure signs. Also, barnes puts out a reloading guide for their bullets. Get one! They commonly use less powder,(or so I've heard).

And yes you DO need a chrongraph. If you had one and it read that load, you would have been shocked!

[Shoney]

I CRY FOUL

I just came home from the range where I met a man who uses Barnes TSX extensively...

He has taken more than 30 elk using the TSX and said he has never had a failure...has never seen anything but excellent mushrooming from the TSX.

The TSX is a very new bullet. How can someone have legally shot more than 30 elk in less than 2 years??????? Even if the guy were a poacher, he would be hard pressed to accomplish this.

Pointer, I think your acquaintances mouth is spewing the products of Equine peristalsis!