Resized nipple in a 45 cal cherokee

ircaver · July 9, 2010, 01:47 PM

Hi all,
This is my first post to the FiringLine and I have a question for the smokepole gunsmiths out there. I aquired a T/C cherokee barrel that had the bolster drilled out too large to accept the standard 12-28 / 1/4-28 nipple size however, it can be tapped to accept a 5/16-24 nipple. I have a concern about the pressures generated in the breach plug switching to a larger size against the new threading in the nipple. Would this be safe to do or should I just replace the breach plug?
Thanks for the advice in advance.

denster · July 9, 2010, 02:04 PM

I wouldn't have any concerns if the current hole is the correct size to be tapped 5/16X24 that's a stonger thread than 1/4X28 although either is more than adequate.

Pahoo · July 9, 2010, 03:40 PM

As I recall, TC specifically made a different size nipple that was common to the Senecas as well as the Cherokees but not the bigger brother, Hawken models. I can check the thread size for you if you wish and I currently have some on hand. You will find it hard to fimd a replacement breech plugs, from TC but might find them somewhere else. I sure would hate to go down that road.

Be Safe !!!

kwhi43 · July 9, 2010, 04:14 PM

I think it's the same nipple they used for the Partiort pistol also.

Pahoo · July 9, 2010, 07:43 PM

Quote:

I think it's the same nipple they used for the Partiort pistol also.

I'm fairly sure you are correct .....

Be Safe !!!

arcticap · July 9, 2010, 10:07 PM

Not that it's necessary, but Track of the Wolf has a nearly identical replacement breech plug for the Seneca/Cherokee:

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/catego...ARREL-ASSEMBLY

ircaver · July 10, 2010, 02:08 PM

That's correct all,
The 12-28's are used for the Seneca, Cherokee and Patriot pistol. The 1/4 - 28 is used on the other T/C percussion rifles. Track of the wolf has a replacement breachplug for @ $30. Takes a lathe to properly fit it to the barrel and it needs to be match blued too. I'm mostly worried about putting 15,000 - 18,000 CUP's behind a larger nipple (Max charge limit). Has anyone done this before?

Pahoo · July 10, 2010, 02:37 PM

Good catch, Caver !
I just checked my stash and it is a 12-28 thread. The ones I have, state that it's for a Seneca and others, that take this thread. Mine are by Uncle-Mike's, Set #2861-0. On the back of the package, it states that these nipples will also fit;

Colt 1851 Navy Squareback
Colt 1862 Pocket
TC Patriot Pistols
Ruger Old army (Go Figure)

I also think I have some CVA's that list the Cherokee.

Be Safe !!!

denster · July 10, 2010, 03:10 PM

Iccaver

I'm at a lose why you believe that would be a concern. The pressure is the same as that with a 1/4X28 except with the 5/16 you now have more metal between you and the pressure.

ircaver · July 10, 2010, 04:38 PM

To Denster,
In pressure terms, a force pushing on a 12-28 nipple upon powder ignition, has an area related to 0.38622 sq in. In a 5/16-24 nipple, that area is increased to 0.49063 sq in. which, just guessing without doing the math, is about a 20%+ increase of force on the nipple area and related threading in a standard 50 grain charge. If this rifle was an Enfield or Springfield rifle at .58 cal. plus, I would'nt be worried, but the smaller caliber of this rifle, pressure spikes are more dynamic. That was my worry. I was just wondering if anyone had done this before and had not shot the nipple through the bill of their hat or worse yet.

arcticap · July 11, 2010, 03:02 AM

I have a Pedersoli rifle that was made in many calibers including .32, .36, .45 & .50, all having the same very large base nipple. The nipple and base is the largest for a standard factory #11 cap nipple that I've ever seen and it supports a type of direct ignition with a mule ear lock.
FWIW I didn't pull it out to measure it's diameter but it has very coarse threads, the threaded portion is longer and the flash hole is also larger than other nipples.

ircaver · July 11, 2010, 06:02 AM

Thanks Articap,
That is the info I was looking for, and thanks to all who responded. I'll repost here when I fix the rifle and let you know how it worked.

July 9, 2010, 01:47 PM	#1
ircaver Junior Member Join Date: July 7, 2010 Location: Floral City, FL Posts: 4	Resized nipple in a 45 cal cherokee Hi all, This is my first post to the FiringLine and I have a question for the smokepole gunsmiths out there. I aquired a T/C cherokee barrel that had the bolster drilled out too large to accept the standard 12-28 / 1/4-28 nipple size however, it can be tapped to accept a 5/16-24 nipple. I have a concern about the pressures generated in the breach plug switching to a larger size against the new threading in the nipple. Would this be safe to do or should I just replace the breach plug? Thanks for the advice in advance.

July 9, 2010, 02:04 PM	#2
denster Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 581	I wouldn't have any concerns if the current hole is the correct size to be tapped 5/16X24 that's a stonger thread than 1/4X28 although either is more than adequate.

July 9, 2010, 03:40 PM	#3
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	As I recall, TC specifically made a different size nipple that was common to the Senecas as well as the Cherokees but not the bigger brother, Hawken models. I can check the thread size for you if you wish and I currently have some on hand. You will find it hard to fimd a replacement breech plugs, from TC but might find them somewhere else. I sure would hate to go down that road. Be Safe !!!

July 9, 2010, 04:14 PM	#4
kwhi43 Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2008 Location: Kansas City Posts: 1,393	I think it's the same nipple they used for the Partiort pistol also.

July 9, 2010, 10:07 PM	#6
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	Not that it's necessary, but Track of the Wolf has a nearly identical replacement breech plug for the Seneca/Cherokee: http://www.trackofthewolf.com/catego...ARREL-ASSEMBLY

July 10, 2010, 02:08 PM	#7
ircaver Junior Member Join Date: July 7, 2010 Location: Floral City, FL Posts: 4	That's correct all, The 12-28's are used for the Seneca, Cherokee and Patriot pistol. The 1/4 - 28 is used on the other T/C percussion rifles. Track of the wolf has a replacement breachplug for @ $30. Takes a lathe to properly fit it to the barrel and it needs to be match blued too. I'm mostly worried about putting 15,000 - 18,000 CUP's behind a larger nipple (Max charge limit). Has anyone done this before?

July 10, 2010, 02:37 PM	#8
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	Good catch, Caver ! I just checked my stash and it is a 12-28 thread. The ones I have, state that it's for a Seneca and others, that take this thread. Mine are by Uncle-Mike's, Set #2861-0. On the back of the package, it states that these nipples will also fit; Colt 1851 Navy Squareback Colt 1862 Pocket TC Patriot Pistols Ruger Old army (Go Figure) I also think I have some CVA's that list the Cherokee. Be Safe !!!

July 10, 2010, 03:10 PM	#9
denster Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 581	Iccaver I'm at a lose why you believe that would be a concern. The pressure is the same as that with a 1/4X28 except with the 5/16 you now have more metal between you and the pressure.

July 10, 2010, 04:38 PM	#10
ircaver Junior Member Join Date: July 7, 2010 Location: Floral City, FL Posts: 4	To Denster, In pressure terms, a force pushing on a 12-28 nipple upon powder ignition, has an area related to 0.38622 sq in. In a 5/16-24 nipple, that area is increased to 0.49063 sq in. which, just guessing without doing the math, is about a 20%+ increase of force on the nipple area and related threading in a standard 50 grain charge. If this rifle was an Enfield or Springfield rifle at .58 cal. plus, I would'nt be worried, but the smaller caliber of this rifle, pressure spikes are more dynamic. That was my worry. I was just wondering if anyone had done this before and had not shot the nipple through the bill of their hat or worse yet.

July 11, 2010, 03:02 AM	#11
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	I have a Pedersoli rifle that was made in many calibers including .32, .36, .45 & .50, all having the same very large base nipple. The nipple and base is the largest for a standard factory #11 cap nipple that I've ever seen and it supports a type of direct ignition with a mule ear lock. FWIW I didn't pull it out to measure it's diameter but it has very coarse threads, the threaded portion is longer and the flash hole is also larger than other nipples. Last edited by arcticap; July 11, 2010 at 03:22 AM.

July 11, 2010, 06:02 AM	#12
ircaver Junior Member Join Date: July 7, 2010 Location: Floral City, FL Posts: 4	Thanks Articap, That is the info I was looking for, and thanks to all who responded. I'll repost here when I fix the rifle and let you know how it worked.