Para P 13-45 Problem Feed and Eject

ss409cid · April 12, 2005, 08:12 AM

I dont often use this gun, maybe 1000 rds in the 5 years Ive owned it. It has gotten worse about feeding and ejecting every time I use it. With factory ammo it will jamb about every 5th round, mostly when feeding, but some times on the eject. Took it to a gunsmith, he concludes that the magazines are going into the gun to far. He even showed me how if you push the mag release and space the mag just a hair, the gun cycles properly. The mags are all factory Para Ordinance, have not been used much and worked fine when the gun was new.....I find it hard to believe this is the real problem. Any one have any ideas?

Thanks........Larry

Dave Sample · April 12, 2005, 11:52 AM

I did a couple of Para's before I decided that they were not worth the time or trouble to work on. The first thing I did was replace the magazine springs with new Wolff springs. The Factory springs were worthless. Please remember that I made a living elsewhere and could pick and choose the work that I did and who I did it for. I do not like Canada. I do not like Para's. I don't have to. Others rave about them and have no problems with them. Chuck Rogers has forgotten more about these type of 1911's than I ever knew. All I knew is that they had a crappy trigger group, bad magazines, and were too thick to suit my tastes. They were also about an acre to checker if you had to do the front strap. Here is one I did in the Days Of Yesteryear.

It was one of the three hi-cap 40 short and weaks in the US at the time it was built.

ss409cid · April 12, 2005, 12:54 PM

Could new Mag springs solve the feed problem?

Dave Sample · April 12, 2005, 01:58 PM

Yes they could, but some of the feed lips were badly done. also.

ss409cid · April 12, 2005, 02:18 PM

Im not a gun smith, could you elaborate....Thanks Larry

Harry Bonar · April 12, 2005, 07:10 PM

Dear Sir:
Dave is right on as usual.
I have a P-13, it hasn't given me any trouble.
You might try throating the ramped para barrel. The 45 is a low pressure round (the 22lr is 25,000 cup) and a judicious throating of the bbl; might help. The ramp on the bbl is the "feed Ramp". We use a "bone wheel" on these chambers and make a small "break-over" (Dave knows what I'm talking about) at the top of feed ramp and also polish the entire chamber with added emphasis to the upper circumference. As Dave knows, these Para bbls are also notorious for excess headspace! That doesn't help; I've got a Bar-Sto bbl in my P-13.
It's possible that this work MIGHT??? help.
The Wolf springs Dave mentions are essential - the factory springs are crap. Also, you ought to replace the recoil spring with a WOLF also.
I've built several P-14s', one P-13 and a little P-12 which I dearly love (Dave, it's never boobled and I'm going to put a Kins kit in sometime.)
I really think you've got a feeding problem that might be rectified.
I'll say this, "In a real gunfight the only pistol I'd take would be a 1911 Colt or Springfield with a wilson rogers & (SEVEN) round mag with one up the spout!!
I hope you rectify your problem. Good shooting and remember there is NO-SUCH thing as LUCK, just the coalescence of events! Harry B.

In the commander length and P-12 and P-10 and Colt Officers models the angle of these barrels in feeding is not like a full length bbl; everything has to be really perfect to feed well.

Hunter Customs · April 13, 2005, 07:41 AM

I've built and work on a lot of Para guns, here's a 38 super race gun built using a P-14 as the base gun. I've never seen a Para where the mags went in to far. Extra power mag springs is always a plus in high capacity double stack mags. There's several things that could cause your problem I'll name a few that I've seen come in the shop, besides the weak mag springs. Improper lubrication, recoil spring in backwards or incorrect weight, extractor tension incorrect. There's other things that could be causing your problems but these are things that you may want to eliminate first.
Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

Hunter Customs · April 13, 2005, 07:50 AM

This may have been the first single stack Para ever built.

This one is a 10mm.
Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

Dave Sample · April 13, 2005, 11:14 AM

I think that Bob and Harry have given some valuble input here. I am sure that they have much more expereince with these Canadian Critters than I have. I have never seen the need in my life to have more that 8 rounds of good old 45 ACP in my carry gun. This is heavy enough for me! Bear in mind that I never leave home without it and carry it all the time I am out and about. I never liked the Hi-Cap IPSC experience and quit building guns for that shooting disipline when they started the Hi Cap Crap. That is not to say I am right about it. It is just what it's like to be me.
There is a big difference between improving a 1911 to make it work better than doing something different to sell a mediocre product. Para's have been badly done since the git-go. They make pistolsmiths very happy.

guntotin_fool · April 13, 2005, 11:39 AM

If it started out fine and has gotten worse, it is not a angle problem, it is a spring problem, angle problems are bad from the gitgo. try a new mag spring and a new recoil spring. when you order them get a couple of different weight springs. i would say 18, 20 and 21-22. try these, commander springs start to fail after about a thousand rounds or so. IMHE, most of the time, fresh spring should be the first thing done to a balkie gun after a good clean and lube. you can try new spring for under ten bucks and save yourself the first thing a good smith would do anyway and charge your forty dollars to do. Not bashing smiths, but why not do the first thing on the list yourself.
Then look at the feed ramp, and get a dremel. YUP!! I said get a dremel, pull the barrel out of the slide and get a polishing tip, a cratex rubber wheel in the finest grit and just lightly buff up the feedramp. and just touch TOUCH the junction of the ramp to the chamber. Now the Cratex part is important. They will not remove material, but rather allow you to polish the ramp with out changing the angle, Now assemble the pistol load the magazine and while aiming in a safe direction, pull the slide back and release it on a fresh round. does it go in? if so good. If not, stop and look at where it is hitting. Has the gun raised a burr somewhere? Is there something obvious that is stopping the round from entering the chamber?
Now that the AWB has passed, remember all those ten round mags made for P13's? Go buy one. this ten dollar mag will be your tester. examine the new mag compared to the old mag, Is there wear on the top of the feed lips from the slide rubbing over it? are the lips the same shape, are the same length. On some mags. the length of the feed lips is too long, preventing the cartrige from releasing soon enough to rise up over the feed ramp. take the dremel and on the cheap mag slightly shorten the amount of lip that is bent over to retain the shell. we are talking a 1/32 at most. just touch it and smooth it and try it again. If you wish to try your gunsmiths suggeston that the mag is in too far, take a file and slightly remove some material from the top of the mag catch slot, thus allowing the mag to drop a 1/64" see if that works.
Lesson one. Do only one thing at a time.
lesson two. only grind, cut, file, polish things that you can replace easily.
Lesson three start out with the cheapest things first.
Lesson four, never do anything to a dirty gun.
If this were my gun, I would 1) change springs, 2) Buy a ten rounder, and go to the range. shoot two or three boxes. if it persists with all mags, 3) clean whole gun thoroughly. polish feed ramp, 4) shorten the feed lips of the mag, (the cheap one) Go to range, shoot the gun, if problem persists. file the mag catch slot. if it fixes the problem, call Paraord and describe what you have found and ask to return the magazines. ask them to review the mags and see if they meet specs, They have been pretty good about fixing things that are not right for friends of mine.
If this does not fix the problem call paraord again, tell them what is going on and ask the to review the gun, tell them exactly what ammo you are shooting, let them touch it first. They are usually faster and cheaper than most smiths you can find.

PS, I have also found that the new WWB ammo i have been picking up for blasting is horribly dirty, this was not the case before, but it is now, and I have noticed in both my 40 beretta Centurian and my para's that about one hundred rounds is all I get before I need to hose the gun out with gun scrubber and a brush...with my handloads using Titgroup, I can go a thousand rounds np. when they get that dirty, FTF and FTE start to happen. I have quit using the stuff and gone to either handloads or black hills. Black hills is not as clean as titegroup, but close. YMMV

Dave Sample · April 13, 2005, 11:37 PM

Most Para's have a bad angle in the feed ramp and you may have to address this also and recut the ramp. Also, polishing the barrel throat with a dremel is the answer to a smith's prayer. Good Luck. The last time I checked, new barrels were not a cheap item.

April 12, 2005, 08:12 AM	#1
ss409cid Junior Member Join Date: April 12, 2005 Location: NC Posts: 3	Para P 13-45 Problem Feed and Eject I dont often use this gun, maybe 1000 rds in the 5 years Ive owned it. It has gotten worse about feeding and ejecting every time I use it. With factory ammo it will jamb about every 5th round, mostly when feeding, but some times on the eject. Took it to a gunsmith, he concludes that the magazines are going into the gun to far. He even showed me how if you push the mag release and space the mag just a hair, the gun cycles properly. The mags are all factory Para Ordinance, have not been used much and worked fine when the gun was new.....I find it hard to believe this is the real problem. Any one have any ideas? Thanks........Larry

April 12, 2005, 07:10 PM	#6
Harry Bonar Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Location: In the Vincent, Ohio general area. Posts: 1,804	p-13 problem Dear Sir: Dave is right on as usual. I have a P-13, it hasn't given me any trouble. You might try throating the ramped para barrel. The 45 is a low pressure round (the 22lr is 25,000 cup) and a judicious throating of the bbl; might help. The ramp on the bbl is the "feed Ramp". We use a "bone wheel" on these chambers and make a small "break-over" (Dave knows what I'm talking about) at the top of feed ramp and also polish the entire chamber with added emphasis to the upper circumference. As Dave knows, these Para bbls are also notorious for excess headspace! That doesn't help; I've got a Bar-Sto bbl in my P-13. It's possible that this work MIGHT??? help. The Wolf springs Dave mentions are essential - the factory springs are crap. Also, you ought to replace the recoil spring with a WOLF also. I've built several P-14s', one P-13 and a little P-12 which I dearly love (Dave, it's never boobled and I'm going to put a Kins kit in sometime.) I really think you've got a feeding problem that might be rectified. I'll say this, "In a real gunfight the only pistol I'd take would be a 1911 Colt or Springfield with a wilson rogers & (SEVEN) round mag with one up the spout!! I hope you rectify your problem. Good shooting and remember there is NO-SUCH thing as LUCK, just the coalescence of events! Harry B. In the commander length and P-12 and P-10 and Colt Officers models the angle of these barrels in feeding is not like a full length bbl; everything has to be really perfect to feed well. Last edited by Harry Bonar; April 12, 2005 at 07:13 PM. Reason: add info.

April 12, 2005, 11:52 AM	#2
Dave Sample Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2004 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 1,002	I did a couple of Para's before I decided that they were not worth the time or trouble to work on. The first thing I did was replace the magazine springs with new Wolff springs. The Factory springs were worthless. Please remember that I made a living elsewhere and could pick and choose the work that I did and who I did it for. I do not like Canada. I do not like Para's. I don't have to. Others rave about them and have no problems with them. Chuck Rogers has forgotten more about these type of 1911's than I ever knew. All I knew is that they had a crappy trigger group, bad magazines, and were too thick to suit my tastes. They were also about an acre to checker if you had to do the front strap. Here is one I did in the Days Of Yesteryear. It was one of the three hi-cap 40 short and weaks in the US at the time it was built.

April 12, 2005, 12:54 PM	#3
ss409cid Junior Member Join Date: April 12, 2005 Location: NC Posts: 3	Could new Mag springs solve the feed problem?

April 12, 2005, 01:58 PM	#4
Dave Sample Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2004 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 1,002	Yes they could, but some of the feed lips were badly done. also.

April 12, 2005, 02:18 PM	#5
ss409cid Junior Member Join Date: April 12, 2005 Location: NC Posts: 3	Im not a gun smith, could you elaborate....Thanks Larry

April 13, 2005, 07:41 AM	#7
Hunter Customs Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2005 Location: Osborn, Missouri Posts: 2,697	I've built and work on a lot of Para guns, here's a 38 super race gun built using a P-14 as the base gun. I've never seen a Para where the mags went in to far. Extra power mag springs is always a plus in high capacity double stack mags. There's several things that could cause your problem I'll name a few that I've seen come in the shop, besides the weak mag springs. Improper lubrication, recoil spring in backwards or incorrect weight, extractor tension incorrect. There's other things that could be causing your problems but these are things that you may want to eliminate first. Regards Bob Hunter www.huntercustoms.com

April 13, 2005, 07:50 AM	#8
Hunter Customs Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2005 Location: Osborn, Missouri Posts: 2,697	This may have been the first single stack Para ever built. This one is a 10mm. Regards Bob Hunter www.huntercustoms.com

April 13, 2005, 11:14 AM	#9
Dave Sample Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2004 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 1,002	I think that Bob and Harry have given some valuble input here. I am sure that they have much more expereince with these Canadian Critters than I have. I have never seen the need in my life to have more that 8 rounds of good old 45 ACP in my carry gun. This is heavy enough for me! Bear in mind that I never leave home without it and carry it all the time I am out and about. I never liked the Hi-Cap IPSC experience and quit building guns for that shooting disipline when they started the Hi Cap Crap. That is not to say I am right about it. It is just what it's like to be me. There is a big difference between improving a 1911 to make it work better than doing something different to sell a mediocre product. Para's have been badly done since the git-go. They make pistolsmiths very happy.

April 13, 2005, 11:39 AM	#10
guntotin_fool Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2004 Posts: 1,446	If it started out fine and has gotten worse, it is not a angle problem, it is a spring problem, angle problems are bad from the gitgo. try a new mag spring and a new recoil spring. when you order them get a couple of different weight springs. i would say 18, 20 and 21-22. try these, commander springs start to fail after about a thousand rounds or so. IMHE, most of the time, fresh spring should be the first thing done to a balkie gun after a good clean and lube. you can try new spring for under ten bucks and save yourself the first thing a good smith would do anyway and charge your forty dollars to do. Not bashing smiths, but why not do the first thing on the list yourself. Then look at the feed ramp, and get a dremel. YUP!! I said get a dremel, pull the barrel out of the slide and get a polishing tip, a cratex rubber wheel in the finest grit and just lightly buff up the feedramp. and just touch TOUCH the junction of the ramp to the chamber. Now the Cratex part is important. They will not remove material, but rather allow you to polish the ramp with out changing the angle, Now assemble the pistol load the magazine and while aiming in a safe direction, pull the slide back and release it on a fresh round. does it go in? if so good. If not, stop and look at where it is hitting. Has the gun raised a burr somewhere? Is there something obvious that is stopping the round from entering the chamber? Now that the AWB has passed, remember all those ten round mags made for P13's? Go buy one. this ten dollar mag will be your tester. examine the new mag compared to the old mag, Is there wear on the top of the feed lips from the slide rubbing over it? are the lips the same shape, are the same length. On some mags. the length of the feed lips is too long, preventing the cartrige from releasing soon enough to rise up over the feed ramp. take the dremel and on the cheap mag slightly shorten the amount of lip that is bent over to retain the shell. we are talking a 1/32 at most. just touch it and smooth it and try it again. If you wish to try your gunsmiths suggeston that the mag is in too far, take a file and slightly remove some material from the top of the mag catch slot, thus allowing the mag to drop a 1/64" see if that works. Lesson one. Do only one thing at a time. lesson two. only grind, cut, file, polish things that you can replace easily. Lesson three start out with the cheapest things first. Lesson four, never do anything to a dirty gun. If this were my gun, I would 1) change springs, 2) Buy a ten rounder, and go to the range. shoot two or three boxes. if it persists with all mags, 3) clean whole gun thoroughly. polish feed ramp, 4) shorten the feed lips of the mag, (the cheap one) Go to range, shoot the gun, if problem persists. file the mag catch slot. if it fixes the problem, call Paraord and describe what you have found and ask to return the magazines. ask them to review the mags and see if they meet specs, They have been pretty good about fixing things that are not right for friends of mine. If this does not fix the problem call paraord again, tell them what is going on and ask the to review the gun, tell them exactly what ammo you are shooting, let them touch it first. They are usually faster and cheaper than most smiths you can find. PS, I have also found that the new WWB ammo i have been picking up for blasting is horribly dirty, this was not the case before, but it is now, and I have noticed in both my 40 beretta Centurian and my para's that about one hundred rounds is all I get before I need to hose the gun out with gun scrubber and a brush...with my handloads using Titgroup, I can go a thousand rounds np. when they get that dirty, FTF and FTE start to happen. I have quit using the stuff and gone to either handloads or black hills. Black hills is not as clean as titegroup, but close. YMMV

April 13, 2005, 11:37 PM	#11
Dave Sample Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2004 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 1,002	Most Para's have a bad angle in the feed ramp and you may have to address this also and recut the ramp. Also, polishing the barrel throat with a dremel is the answer to a smith's prayer. Good Luck. The last time I checked, new barrels were not a cheap item.