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Old August 8, 2021, 10:36 PM   #26
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I would think a lot of left of AK's from Nicaragua would be all over the place in cartel hands...

Anyway they should sue obummer for the fast and furious fiasco... That was all on him.

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Old August 8, 2021, 10:51 PM   #27
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It wasn't the US gun manufacturers that did anything wrong. If the Mexican government had an issue with firearms, they could have blocked them from being imported. However, I seem to remember three clowns that violated the law along the border big time. They should be suing Obama, Biden, and Holder over Project Gunrunner?
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Old August 9, 2021, 01:44 PM   #28
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As far as I'm concerned, any govt suing any private manufacturer for damages due to criminal misuse of an otherwise lawful product is simply looking for a court to award them money for NOT DOING THEIR JOBS properly.

I am totally opposed to awarding money (no matter if it comes from private pockets or tax dollars) to "compensate" for the cost of govt FAILING its basic responsibility.

Because that is what this really is. The Mexican govt has failed to protect its citizens, Their EXCUSE is to blame US gun makers. And they want a court to order they get paid by those gunmakers for what they have failed to do.

I've said and will say the same thing when the govt involved is our own. Big city mayors tried that. and for the same reason, to shift the blame for their failure to a third party and force them to pay because they were "responsible" for gun violence.

The gun laws in big cities are at least as strict as the laws in the rest of the country, and in most cases, far stricter. IF your city has a problem with violence involving guns, the reason is not that guns exist, the reason is that you, the city govt (and that includes police and prosecutors & the court system), those people HIRED (including elected) to keep the public safe, are not doing the job they are hired to do well enough.

I think rewarding them with money via a court decision is exactly the wrong thing to do.
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Old August 9, 2021, 02:36 PM   #29
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NRA-ILA is reporting that the Brady group is the hidden partner with Mexico in the lawsuit.
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Old August 9, 2021, 11:12 PM   #30
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NRA-ILA is reporting that the Brady group is the hidden partner with Mexico in the lawsuit.
That is the Democratic strategy for destroying the gun industry. This is just the beginning.
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Old August 10, 2021, 12:34 AM   #31
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Any way if this case goes to discovery , the gun manufacturers can bring up fast and furious . Resulting in the ability to circumvent the executive privilege and opening up those records for discovery ?
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Old August 10, 2021, 04:13 AM   #32
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Wow, that's weird. They're currently working with Sig Sauer to order a ton of assault rifles. Interestingly, Sig is not one of the defendants in the lawsuit.
Would it not make sense from a longterm perspective for gun manufacturers to start to back away from doing business with governments that sue industry peers or is the public sector revenue not worth it?
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Old August 10, 2021, 04:16 AM   #33
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Actually, I'm wondering if there are American gun-control advocates helping with this.

They recently got Remington to settle for $33 million in a lawsuit related to Sandy Hook, and they've been pushing numerous lawsuits that should be invalidated by the PLCAA. The timing and method seems awfully coincidental.
It sure sounds like a contrived assault on the legislation that protects gun manufacturers doesn’t it? Why wasn’t this tried by Mexico with the previous administration? My guess would be this is a top down strategy from the highest levels.
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Old August 10, 2021, 06:17 AM   #34
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I'm interested in the case but I freely admit the whole legal thing is over my head.

To prove that I don't understand this stuff I'll ask the following question, why wouldn't Mexico sue in some form of the World Court or International Court. It's my impression those courts don't like the US much.
A couple of things come to mind. Mind you, these are no more that educated speculation:

1. It may be easier to get personal jurisdiction over the gun manufacturers in an American court.

2. The US courts may generally award higher damages, or may have other mechanisms (like how they award attorneys' fees) that make litigation in a US court more desirable.

3. The World Court or International Court may only have jurisdiction to hear suits between countries, not private entities.
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Old August 10, 2021, 07:02 AM   #35
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I worked in Mexico for 16 years. Six of those 16 years I carried their version of our green card. From my experience, the cartels are better equipped then the local police, federales and the military. At the time I was there the federales carried a clone of the HK 308 rifle. I never paid attention to the pistols they use as it does not pay to stare too much at law-enforcement officials when in country.

given the times that we find ourselves in, it’s any man’s guess how this will turn out IMHO.
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Old August 10, 2021, 11:18 AM   #36
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Is Mexico suing the machete makers, too??
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Old August 10, 2021, 11:23 AM   #37
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Why wasn’t this tried by Mexico with the previous administration?

Because they understood what the game was I'm sure. But all of this goes much deeper than simply gun rights in America. This is also being pushed by the European Union.

The ultimate goal is to stop guns for public use. They confiscate thousands of guns every year over there with most coming out of Florida. The gun manufactures will jump in bed with anyone who keeps them in business.

Sig is sitting sweet now if the public band comes into play.

The Globalist like Bloomberg and company fear the public a.k.a. the poor every getting wise to it all and coming after their wealth. That wise part is how the system has been screwing us since mankind crawled out of the slime.

Europe is a prime example of what can happen when you truly have no real rights.
And if you want to see how bad it can get look no further than what is happening in Australia at the moment, they are now using the military to enforce the CONVID-19 lockdown there.

And nothing they can do about it as they were cleverly disarmed a few years ago.
Do you remember when the citizens where allowed to defend themselves in Mexico.
It's a totally corrupt and failed State now.
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Old August 10, 2021, 11:53 AM   #38
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Mexico alleges that the defendants design, market, distribute and sell guns in ways that routinely arm drug cartels in Mexico, "Defendants use reckless and corrupt gun dealers and dangerous and illegal sales practices that the cartels rely on to get their guns."

"Defendants design these guns to be easily modified to fire automatically and to be readily transferable on the criminal market in Mexico," the suit continued.
quoted from the article linked in the OP.

IF this is factual, the Mexican lawsuit has a lot to PROOVE, that I don't think can be proven. First, are we talking "illegal" under US law. or under Mexican law????

"reckless and dangerous sales practices",,, that one need more than a bit of explanation...

But the last bit is what gets me, HOW does one design a gun to be readily transferable on the criminal market in Mexico???

Seriously, what design features need to be in a gun to do that??? show me a list and then show me how each feature on that list makes the gun "readily transferable on the criminal market in Mexico" ....

My guess is that they are hoping for a sympathetic court, who will be moved by their tale of woe, and will not consider the facts or the actual law and be shamed into award gazillions in damages to be taken from the deep pockets of corporate greed (gunmakers) and given as compensation to the Mexican government, to help poor downtrodden, suffering masses in their country.

thoughts??
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Old August 10, 2021, 04:06 PM   #39
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In the mid 1990’s, I believe you could own a handgun with stipulations but it could not be a military caliber. If I remember correctly, .380 and .38 Super were allowable albeit on an extremely limited and conditional basis. We were well educated on Mexican law from our legal eagles. No ammo whatsoever——-one round could put you in a situation where the quality and safety of your surroundings were contingent upon your ability to pay.

Having witnessed more than one high school kid succumb to Mexican black tar heroin, perhaps we should countersue for the Mexican Government’s failure to keep Cartel-provided illicit drugs off our streets?
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Old August 11, 2021, 07:39 AM   #40
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thoughts??


They'll see never see a dime from it, straight into the crooked pockets and the poor will be still be flooding over the border by 2024.

Point 2, the gun manufactures can't fight the money behind this, so you bankrupt them. I suspect in the future most will declare bankruptcy to survive.

It's a dangerous precedent. But easy to do with guns because unlike Google or Apple guns are evil right. With enough idiots out here to believe it.


But how did this all get started. By cities paying out to b l ack families so there would be no riots if a family member was killed by the police. I watched it all for the last 20 odd years in slow motion, each time I saw Al Sharpton in the background I realize it was payoff time.

And it all stem from the Rodney King ordeal out in L.A. back in the early 90's.


From that we get corporations paying out to settle rather than fighting it. As Trump once said no one liked to sue him because he didn't cave in, he would challenge it in court.

But the real bottom line to all of this is a way for lawyers to make a living.
Back in the 1990's when George jr. was governor in Texas it got so bad with malpractice lawsuits against the hospitals and doctors he capped the awards and almost over night the grifters started looking for another easy target.


People don't understand that America doesn't have a Justice system, never has, it's a Legal system fueled soley by money. America now has as many lawyers as it does bums.

Last edited by Mulebuk Mojo; August 11, 2021 at 07:46 AM. Reason: spell check
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Old August 11, 2021, 07:48 AM   #41
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Be sure of this: Should the Mexicans be successful, other American industries and businesses will be ripe for the picking. There are many levels and intents with this litigation and none are beneficial to average Americans. I won’t veer off topic or bore you with the details except to submit one word: Sovereignty.
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Old August 11, 2021, 08:46 AM   #42
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Dale, while international courts may tend to not be fond of America, suing a manufacturer in a nation where a product they manufactured causes harm in another nation after being ILLEGALLY imported is probably a bright line sticking point of “not going anywhere.” The more appropriate target of that suit would be the individuals who introduce the item in the country.
Commenting on a case just from a MSN blurb is fraught with peril, but I think you've identified one problem with the complaint.

This appears to a be a suit for money damages. How was the Mexican government harmed? is there any part of their alleged harm that wasn't most proximately cause by a criminal act of people under its governance or who were actually agents of the Mexican government?

If every factual allegation in the complaint were indisputably true, would Mexico still lose this on the law?
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Old August 11, 2021, 09:54 AM   #43
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Maybe Mexico needs to build a wall to keep our guns out?
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Old August 11, 2021, 06:36 PM   #44
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If every factual allegation in the complaint were indisputably true, would Mexico still lose this on the law?
Based on the limited (and likely flawed) reporting of the case, I don't see how their allegations can be true, in actual fact. But that doesn't stop people from believing they are true. OR acting on that belief.

What frightens me most, is that too many otherwise sane, rational seeming adults accept the concept that things cause evil, and therefore the makers of such things are responsible for the harm resulting from that evil.

Wasn't that concept essentially discredited and disproven with the ending of the Dark Ages? I know those in power kept it alive in their legal systems, you can find its current manifestation in our seizure laws. "Evil" things were forfeit to the Crown (or the Church) and both local and higher officials profited by that, in the past. And while current US law is aimed at preventing the individuals enforcing our laws from making a personal monetary profit, there are other kinds of profit, more subtle in nature.

I notice that in recent years the tactic often being used to demonstrate gun maker's "responsibility" for third party criminal acts is to blame the gun makers advertising.

How can someone claim to uphold the concepts of free speech, and particularly FREE WILL and yet somehow refuse to accept that we have free will when it comes to guns "forcing us" to commit criminal acts? That the guns themselves, NOT the people pulling the triggers in violation of law, are the cause??

So, 11 (or so) American gun makers are supposed to be the cause of Mexico's violence and murders?

Are they going to try and sell us a bridge next??
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Old August 11, 2021, 07:17 PM   #45
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Old August 11, 2021, 07:44 PM   #46
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Are they going to try and sell us a bridge next??
Bridges? We don't need no stinkin' bridges!

With all due apologies to the "Treasure of the Sierra Madre", the dialog of which is often misquoted.

Sadly, whether this suit makes it to court will likely depend on the judge and his/her political views, rather than the merits of the case.
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Old August 11, 2021, 10:55 PM   #47
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Totalitarian regimes since the beginning of time have used critical theory to study all of the different groups within a society. Then those groups are pitted against each other via the use of specific tactics such as Hegel’s dialectics whereby the government creates a problem and their solution always results in the people losing more freedom. The process continues with other issues until there no freedom.

The Deep State is getting a double whammy with this law-fare by pitting pro-gun against anti-gun and anti-immigration against pro-immigration. Thus, this lawsuit is part of much larger effort. Thesis: Guns are bad - Anti-Thesis - Promote and implement Lawlessness to create fear so great the public will clamor for a solution. Synthesis - Enact laws exchanging perceived freedom for perceived security.

The whole gun issue is a carefully devised wedge to divide and conquer America. The Mexican suit is just one tactic in the grand plan. It’s imperative that no matter how much we disagree with our fellow Americans that we love each other.
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Old August 12, 2021, 07:27 AM   #48
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Totalitarian regimes since the beginning of time have used critical theory to study all of the different groups within a society. Then those groups are pitted against each other via the use of specific tactics such as Hegel’s dialectics whereby the government creates a problem and their solution always results in the people losing more freedom. The process continues with other issues until there no freedom.

The Deep State is getting a double whammy with this law-fare by pitting pro-gun against anti-gun and anti-immigration against pro-immigration. Thus, this lawsuit is part of much larger effort. Thesis: Guns are bad - Anti-Thesis - Promote and implement Lawlessness to create fear so great the public will clamor for a solution. Synthesis - Enact laws exchanging perceived freedom for perceived security.

The whole gun issue is a carefully devised wedge to divide and conquer America. The Mexican suit is just one tactic in the grand plan. It’s imperative that no matter how much we disagree with our fellow Americans that we love each other.
You can; I can't! I consider anyone that is against American traditions as the enemy.
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Old August 12, 2021, 08:58 AM   #49
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For sure this is not a good deal and it is being used by sone evil people with nefarious intents to bring our Republic down. It appears that the venue has been hand picked for the desired outcome. Or, it could be a bluff to see if the gun makers will settle. I hope Sig understands if this plays out in Mexico’s favor, it won’t be the end of such law-fare and they will be in the legal crosshairs down the road. I have always thought the manufacturers should have avoided capitulating to all of the Anti-Gun States and Cities that mandated conditions ergo the myriad of tyranny in CA. I feel it will come back to bite them.

Off-topic material removed by staff
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Old August 12, 2021, 12:28 PM   #50
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I consider anyone that is against American traditions as the enemy.
I agree, PROVIDED you include in those American traditions, the right to free will, to make your own choices, to disagree with "mainstream" thought and
traditions" and the right to be wrong, about it.

The real enemy of America are those people who say "you have to do it my way or you're the enemy"...and who use their power to force compliance in one way, or another.

I'm not arguing for anarchy only against forced compliance with what is today's version of "group think", where it seems we often go way beyond overboard.
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