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Old August 20, 2021, 04:58 PM   #126
HiBC
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MG. I think you are mistaken to take it personally. I was not writing to or about you.
My entire commentary on Cerro-Safe (no mention of you)
"When you buy a product in good faith,going off the Cerro-Safe land should be McGowen's problem if it is anyones."
I fail to see how it would help Peetza.
There is a slight typo. It should say "going of to Cerro Safe land"

Your advice to me:
You might want to think twice before taking digs at a member with out thinking your thought through .

OK. Review your scenario about Brian having a chamber cast. Where is the barrel? At McGowens. One of Brian's concerns is time. Aside from in your head,how does your scenario help peetza? Should he order Cerro Safe,and ask McGowen to send the barrel back so peetza can make a cast? Our starting point is McGowen has the barrel. Thats what is real. If anyone should make a chamber cast,who?

I'm confused.

What is the path (in reality) that gets peetzas rifle built and shooting? Who made the barrel? Its McGowen who must figure out the problem.
If I'm the barrelmaker,I don't want anyone doing anything inside the barrel I have no control over.

Please think it through.
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Old August 20, 2021, 05:20 PM   #127
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I did think it through , they are not at a place of Mutual respect . They both think each is full of crap your good faith theory is out the door . At that point you better document any and all aspects possible. If you read my post you have seen I said in hindsight he should’ve cast the chamber . The funniest part is you prove my point in your own statement of saying the barrels not even in his hands anymore which exactly makes my point . Right now they can say anything they want Including there’s nothing wrong with the barrel and just sent him a different one . Does that resolve the overall issue maybe yes but does not resolve the question what went wrong in the first place . When I’m doing gunsmithing I don’t like it when things just miraculously start working when they weren’t before . I don’t conclude when that happens everything is fixed only that it’s working now .
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Old August 20, 2021, 06:04 PM   #128
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I'll be perfectly happy (in the sense of having a working barrel) if they do just replace it with a different one, even if they lie and say they didn't. That's on them, as long as the barrel works I don't care how they sleep at night.

However, I seriously doubt that with being 20+ weeks out on production (note that the site still says 12-16) they are going to make a new barrel for me. It's not exactly a common spec.

I may cast the chamber when I get it back, just because. Otherwise, I've got this little bucket of Cerrosafe sitting around for no reason anyway.
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Old August 20, 2021, 07:02 PM   #129
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Metal God and Hibc--just relax guys--I wasn't suggesting pizza should have done a chamber cast (if you do, make sure you make a funnel so the material doesn't flow into the barrel's extension lugs)--only what I do now if things go wrong and I can't easily figure it out. His discretion.

Other than the inconvenience factor and the cross-channel "he said she said" stuff--I predict this will work out just fine and Brian will end up with a fine shooting ARC gun.
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Old August 20, 2021, 07:07 PM   #130
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Quote:
I did think it through , they are not at a place of Mutual respect . They both think each is full of crap your good faith theory is out the door . At that point you better document any and all aspects possible. If you read my post you have seen I said in hindsight he should’ve................. .
Woulda,shoulda,coulda......its not reality.

A really important skill is to be able to differentiate the world of dust devils inside the skull as opposed to the real world ,where a real barrel is on a bench at McGowens. The thoughts you are dwelling on are not possible.

Dealing with "What is" beats trying to deal with "what should be " (but isn't)
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Old August 20, 2021, 07:39 PM   #131
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Lmao , you keep doubling down on trying make me wrong and I’ll keep trying to make a “good faith” effort to help our members .
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Old August 21, 2021, 02:50 AM   #132
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Brian, at the risk of sounding condescending, don't get discouraged--you picked what I would consider an advanced configuration for your first build. While my frequency of "getting it right the first time" is now pretty high, I still make mistakes and still have problems getting the parts tuned optimally after dozens of builds. I probably have more problems with messed up parts than most people--I seem to have a natural talent for them finding their way to me. Learning curve is what is and nobody is a genius on their first try (though they may get lucky). The AR platform may have lots of shortcomings, but IMO nothing else compares to it for flexibility, ease of assembly, ease of use and effectiveness of putting the bullet(s) on target. When I hear people say "I'm not an AR person and don't like them" to me that's like saying "I don't like hot blond models."
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Old August 21, 2021, 07:26 AM   #133
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Quote:
They both think each is full of crap your good faith theory is out the door . At that point you better document any and all aspects possible.
When I've dealt with people who think I'm just a jerk (believe it or not it does happen LOL) they will usually cut to the chase quickly and ask if I want my money back or a new barrel just to get me off their case. But knowledge is something most of them respect--makes it easier for them to communicate with you too. By the time they spent all the hours communicating, assembling, testing etc they probably are past the point of making money on a barrel and are trying to make a satisfied customer.
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Old August 21, 2021, 01:34 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagpanther
I don't like hot blond models.
And just like a hot blonde model, an AR is better when it's someone else's. They can handle the BS and I can look at it, while I keep my "real world brunette", (like my Tikka T3x or even Ruger M77) who's maybe less "sexy", but prettier, has lower maintenance and cooks me dinner.

They're cheaper, prettier, more accurate, lighter... oh, but they don't put bullets on target (or at least in the general vicinity of the target) as fast.

I thought the whole mystique of the AR platform was "throw it together, drag it through mud, rise up out of the water and lay down lead"! If I'd realized it was, "Tinker around with crap until maybe it works someday and it still weighs twice what your bolt gun does and is 1/2 as accurate"... I would've, should've, thought two or three more times and saved myself a lot of money.

Oh well, all I wanted in the first place was a lower on hand in case they banned them. I guess I've got that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagpanther
trying to make a satisfied customer.
If that's what they're doing, they suck at it. All they've done so far, from my perspective, is more than double their estimated delivery time and fail to make a functional product, while not communicating before, during or after unless I force it, throwing out excuses "We forgot to polish it", and then blaming something else when they get their hands on it again.
There hasn't even been a "Gee... I'm sorry this is happening to you", even if they DO think it's my fault. Even if it IS my fault.
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Old August 21, 2021, 02:37 PM   #135
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Well, obviously I'm out of constructive things to contribute--other than good luck, hope it works out in the end.
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Old August 21, 2021, 02:47 PM   #136
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And every time I’ve gotten close to starting on assembling an AR of a more exotic caliber (I lack a better description), a thread like this manifests and scares me away.
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Old August 21, 2021, 09:17 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagpanther
Well, obviously I'm out of constructive things to contribute--other than good luck, hope it works out in the end.
Stag, I do appreciate the input, my friend, and you're almost certainly more correct in your perspective than I am. I tend to be very "black and white", even while knowing that the world exists mostly in shades of grey.
Please do contribute whenever you feel like you have something to say, even if it's "Peetza, you're being a bonehead."
I don't offend easily, unless you're in customer service.
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Old August 22, 2021, 07:32 AM   #138
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You pick your own path.

Each firearm design is its own education. We might learn bolt rifles. There are methods that are pretty reliable. Nearly always.
Build a Ruger #1 Single shot and there are new quirks to work through. (I have never built one)
Take up building 1911 s and you go back to school. There is a whole new dance to learn.

Just as running a wood fired Neapolitan classic pizza place may be quite different than running a chain commodity pizza place. Each has its own challenges.

Building the classic wood and steel bolt rifle includes the challenge of finding a proper piece of fine grained old growth walnut,properly cured and dried,and sawn,laid out for grain orientation... free of flaws. Go ahead and try to find a supplier ! What are the odds you will get what you hope for?

Whether 95 % inletted or a raw blank,it will have problems. And you will be trying to achieve perfection. Line to line fit. Even one little nibble with the gouge makes a gap. Your eye will go to every flaw you made each time you pick up the gun.

We get spared all that with an AR-15. Its more gun mechanic work than gunsmithing. Buy and assemble. Use a few proper tools. Almost no one cuts a set of threads or a chamber. Or makes a single screw,or drills and taps a hole. Using headspace gauges ? I do.

AR-15's are among the easiest "gunbuilding" you can do.

Yes,they are a semi-auto. There is a process to balance with the ammo. Stoner did pretty well,considering configs from 7 in bbl pistols to 24 in bbl rifles are being home built from 9mm to 300 Rem UltraShort Mag (Yes,for a time Armalite would build you an upper. Two brothers own them)

One brother just built one (AR-15) that is a variant of 6.5 Benchrest Remington.It took some sorting out to get good function. Many frustrating range trips. Among other things,the cartridge pressure curve left it undergassed.

My point is,its amazing to me how flexible and forgiving the AR can be.

Accurate? Its POTENTIALLY accurate. A pencil barreled M-4 non-free float carbine is not going to be a gnat-nutter.

A few years back,little brother's Kreiger barrel for his AR-10-T came in. He installed it,loaded his 168 gr Ballistic tips with Varget and WW brass,and took it out on the Pawnee and sighted it in.
He sent me target pix. I posted them here. Three shot groups. I made no MOA claim. But those orange diamond sight in targets?
As I recall,all three shots inside the orange diamond at 600 yds. He was ready to go hunting.

He shoots with the SWAT team types in a long range competition. They have their Accuracy Intl and their Arctic Warriors and their Schmidt and Benders.
He has his AR-10 T with a Leupold. I recall him telling me about a 2 MOA hanging triangle at 900 yds the breezy day he was the ONLY competitor that hit it.

Peetza,you can get a bad barrel from anywhere. Bad customer service has nothing to do with the AR platform. The same could happen with a Nesika Bay bolt rifle action.

I wonder how many folks order a Nesika Bay Bolt action receiver and fit a McGowen barrel to it.

I've never ordered one. I tried the Midway/Brownells pre-threaded/pre chambered commodity barrels and decided if I was going to take the time and effort to build a rifle the LAST place I would cut corners is the barrel.

20+ years ago, Douglas Premium never disappointed me. I tried Shilen. It was fine. Tried the "bargain" barrels. Learned my lesson. For a chambered,threaded Mauser barrel,I gave Lothar Walther a try. I was happy.
I went with a Criterion for my 1903A4 replica .Shoots good! My 30-338 I went Lilja. Makes me smile!!
I had a bit of an issue with a AR-15 SDMR barrel I ordered from Northern Competition.
It was a cut rifled blank from Badger . These were Veterans setting up competition rifles. I got my barrel with matched bolt. We had some issues.
I have no complaint with customer service. Actually,I have no complaint about anything! Stuff happens!
They figured out torquing the barrel extension to GI spec resulted in distortion so they used a different process for better accuracy. My use of the aluminum barrel vise jaws and the GI armorer's manual resulted in my barrel extension unscrewing from the barrel.
Without hesitation,they sent another barrel. Only my matched bolt thing got disconnected from the new barrel. With the "NoGo" in the chamber,the three bolts I had on hand freely spun around in the locking lugs.
Without hesitation,they said "Send it back" and sent me a new barrel.

There is more,but IMO,this was an honorable outfit giving me their best.
About this time,Badger Barrels was bought out,as far as I know Northern Competition is gone.

Too bad. No hard feelings, I wanted those guys to have continuing success.

From the actual barrel maker...like a Lilja or a Kreiger, Masters, the barrel passes to the AR -15 mechanic building his first or second or third...

Used to be the barrel went to a gunsmith with a lathe who cut threads and reamed chambers..was a professional in his trade. Solved all the little problems every day.Made his own tools.

Now we buy a collection of "Ar-15 parts" from whoever has parts in stock, 9 different manufacturers,7 different suppliers, 18 different you tube videos ,including the guy at his kitchen table with the claw hammer ,two nails for punches,a Dremel and his wifes manicure supplies, and makes youtube gunsmithing videos.
Rodeo day!

OK. We climb on this bull ,wrap up our fist in the bull rope, nod our chin and Yeee Hah!! Build a rifle!!

We might have to get back up and dust off a couple of times.

Building an AR-15 ...at least in 5.56,is easier than resurrecting a basket case lever action or Win 97 pump. Its easier than building the classic Bubba Milsurp Sporter. Its easier than building a kit "Hawkin gun" Its easier than building a properly fitted 1911,

You don't even need a file to build an AR-15.

An AR-15 is as easy as any to get an MOA or less at 100 yds.

I would not let a poor barrel maker or lousy customer service sour me on AR-15's

That would be like judging all pizzas based on the frozen Tombstones they do in the toaster oven at Ollie's bar.

Sometimes those hit the spot. Quaint the way they cut them in half to fit them in the toaster oven. Its that or the pickled turkey gizzards,

They pair with the tall PBR's.

Last edited by HiBC; August 22, 2021 at 11:19 AM.
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Old August 22, 2021, 09:26 AM   #139
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Lots of wisdom here in what HIbc says--I think a big part of the whole "AR builder craze" is that there's more to it than simply fitting the lego blocks together--what you'll find is how those blocks interact with one another once you start pulling the trigger is a really big part of how successful the build is in the long run. You simply have to go through some of these to learn what that is about for yourself (just like if you were building a bolt gun). If you don't have the patience or willingness to do that--I'd say forget about building them and just buy a good ready-made one.

PS--If you have a few thousand large and small rifle primers you'd be willing to part with--send all your parts to me and I guarantee I'll put together a good running AR for ya.

PSS--Just kidding ATF folks, I know I'd need to be FFL'd.
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Old August 24, 2021, 09:50 AM   #140
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HiBC,
TL;DR brother.
Kidding! I'm just kidding.
I hear what you're saying.

Today I got a zero $ invoice from McGowen that says "Reworking, customer states that the gun jams and damages cases".
This time it even came with a note that they "appreciate my business".
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Old August 26, 2021, 11:02 AM   #141
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So yesterday I get an email with no information at all except a UPS tracking number. Apparently now their sending everything back.
Ah. The communication of it all!
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Old August 26, 2021, 02:34 PM   #142
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Although not the same really in any way . I sent back my XD45 to Springfield armory because the POI was well below POA . I sent a diagram of my sight picture and where I wanted my POI along with the firearm .

I never got a email saying they got the firearm only an email with a tracking number 2 weeks after shipping . When the gun arrived there was no paper work of any kind saying what they did if anything , just the gun in a cheep plastic case .

I took it out the next time I went to the range and it shoots perfectly to my POA at 15yds . I hated that gun for several years and almost sold it a couple times because of the fixed sights issue . Now I love that thing , So happy with what they did but not so much with the communication .
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Old August 27, 2021, 03:13 PM   #143
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That's odd. I receive a list of items performed when I send in my firearms to Springfield. I have a hunch everyone is so busy and short staffed that they don't have time to provide a printout?
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Old August 27, 2021, 04:49 PM   #144
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Yeah I thought it odd as well . I just let it go because the firearm came back corrected perfectly to what I asked . Why cry they didn’t talk to me enough haha . In hind sight they may have simply thought they did or intended to put some notes in there and for what ever readon that did not happen . Maybe I should have called and at least asked if there was anything on my end that needed addressing . Hmm as I was reminded earlier woulda , shoulda , coulda . No use looking back now , nothing to learn to help with future interactions in similar circumstances .
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Old August 28, 2021, 06:28 AM   #145
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I’d guess there will be some kind of invoice with the barrel explaining the repairs/corrections.
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Old August 30, 2021, 07:43 PM   #146
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Well, the barrel is back today.
No information whatsoever.
Not only no invoice with information, no invoice at all nor any other paperwork.

Even more fun, the malfunction remains unchanged. I would swear they shortened the lugs on the bolt, as they measured 0.280 when I sent it in and seem to be 0.2785 now... but if they did it seems that they re-nitrided it, or maybe just put black marker in it. Who knows.


Anyway, what's next here, gents? What makes an AR lock up solid? Gas block completely shut, bolt jams solid on firing. Cycles perfectly otherwise.
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Old August 31, 2021, 08:34 PM   #147
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So here's some more fun.

I took one "full power" Hornady Black load from the box I was using and another one from a friend, of the same type.

I loaded 3 rounds of Accurate 2495 at 23.0gr (less than a starting load) under Hornady 105gr at 2.200.
I loaded them in the mag my Hornady first, his second and then my three, so my three fired first.

Gas block full open.
First shot, partially ejected but jammed between bolt/upper.
Second shot, ejected but did not load next round.
Third shot, ejected and loaded 4th round.
4th round ejected and loaded 5th round
5th round ejected.

Case mouths on all are severely dented in nearly identical fashion, with one edge very flattened.

Somewhat encouraged, I decided to load a round at 23.4gr and use it to check the case capacity.
Gas block full shut, round fired and the bolt was jammed. It wasn't near as bad as before but I still had to "mortar" it slightly to eject the case.

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Old September 1, 2021, 12:26 AM   #148
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Although I’m not a fan of not knowing why , I’d stop shooting the gun with the gas block closed . I have a theory but lets move on because it appears now factory ammo cycles in the gun when gas block is open and your reloads struggle at start loads . Ignoring the previous 6 pages the answer is simple , start upping the charge . My guess is 24 or 24.5gr will cycle the gun with the gas block wide open . Once your reloads are cycling go ahead close up the gas block in 1/2 turn increments firing a few rounds from the mag at each increment .

It may cycle better as you close it then maybe you get to your lock ip stage IDK what’s happening but it worked for the first time ???? Work up some loads in that configuration and see if you can get your reloads working .
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Old September 1, 2021, 10:46 AM   #149
Brian Pfleuger
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Metal,

What is your theory about the closed gas block jamming the gun? I'm personally suspecting that there are some sharp edges inside the barrel extension.

The thing is, the first time I tried it this time... gas block wide open, it jammed the gun just like before. It didn't work until I used my starting loads... and then mysteriously the full power loads also worked.

Also, considering that the gun will probably jam on any given round, I really can't put the scope on it, which means that "working up a load" is 100% wasted components at this point.
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Old September 1, 2021, 01:05 PM   #150
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Why are you running the gas block full open or full closed? I have about a dozen superlative arms adjustable gas blocks running on AR's and none of them are configured thusly. Symptoms of an over-gassed gun can be very similar to an under gassed one. Follow their directions to the letter and they should work just fine.
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