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Old January 30, 2021, 10:10 AM   #1
horseman308
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LC Smith or ????? - advice on classic SxS sought

A while back I started looking for a decent SxS - mostly for informal trap/clays (a few hundred rounds a year). I kinda got distracted, but I'm looking around again for one. I don't want a pump, auto, or O/U. I've had them all and don't care for them. I guess I'm strictly an old-school guy. The only shotguns I've kept are my Grandfather's Stevens 311 and Winchester 37, both in 16 gauge (which makes ammo really hard to find, even before the 2020 ammo shortage) and a 12 gauge coach gun - not really suitable for even the most informal of clays shooting.

I'd especially like an old-school American SxS, but my budget will be dependent on selling/trading some things in my collection I don't use. So, here are the criteria I'm sticking to for now:

SxS only
Budget: no more than $2000.
Gauge: 12 or 20 gauge.
Double triggers preferred. Not a complete deal-breaker, but like I said, old-school mentality here.

I'd like something a little more refined than the Stevens. I like it fine, but it's a little clunky in some ways. I'd like one with some checkering, maybe a little scroll-work or engraving if the price is right.

I've been looking pretty hard at an LC Smith, and there are several Field Grades on GB that are within that range. But I'm a little out of my depth here. Fox, Parker, and others are classics, too, but I'm not quite sure what I should be looking for. Are there particular brands, years, models I should be looking for or avoiding?
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Old January 30, 2021, 10:58 AM   #2
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Good Luck, with this quest.
You are looking at a dwindling stock and those which are in decent condition are getting pricey.
Recommend that you stalk-along the websites of Griffin & Howe, etc., to see what reasonably pricings are and have defined maintenance records.

Any memberr of your trap/skeet clubs maybe a good source of information, be careful of "malebovinemanure", though.

My makers to consider are: the Winchester Model 24, a lower priced SxS than the M21, or whats left on the Ruger O/U's.
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Old January 30, 2021, 11:09 AM   #3
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I have Remingtons [ 9 ], four Parkers, and a Lefever. The LCs top lever for opening the gun have a rod attached going down into the trigger plate with tension pushing it sideways. If you're not experienced taking old SxSs apart you're into a little problem putting it back together. The Remingtons are one of the easier guns to work on along with Ithaca's. They have less moving parts, less to break, and under priced. Look for loose ribs, loose barrels on the action, and cracks in the wood. The top lever should be to the right when closed, or at least straight. I have three 1894 F grade Remington trap guns, two with after market beavertail forearms. I'd sell two of them, one a splinter foream and one beavertail, either one well under 2000. If interested text me for pictures. Paul Harm 1-810-724-5582.
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Old January 30, 2021, 12:03 PM   #4
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I learned the hard way about the Elsie, but I did learn and successfully reassembled an 1894 version. I have an Ithaca Flues, a simple but very nice gun. After, I think it was 1926, shotshell standard pressure went from 550 bar to modern "field load" pressure. Ithaca brought out their NID designed for the higher pressure. That might be a good one to look for. I don't think modern shells would damage my Flues, but I stay with low pressure shells from RST. Good luck.
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Old January 30, 2021, 02:22 PM   #5
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The experts on this hang out at shotgunworld dot com.

After much study I decided I might like a Fox Sterlingworth and after more study decided the wise and cheapest thing is to spend the extra money and visit one of several places that specialize in size by sides and pay for their expertise and a proper fitting. Also learning about the limitations and care of such a collectible.

In the end, I feel reasonably educated to take a risk on some treasure discovered at a country yard sale but unwilling to pay the money to do the sxs thing properly.

Beretta made a modern sxs that I would consider and the CZ Bobwhite G2 is said to be okay if you get a good one or after a trip to a shotgun smith. These are not “classics” though.

I ended up with a Fabarms semi auto and the determination to restore my 1945 circa Ithaca model 37 for my “fancy American classic sunny autumn day strolling gun”. A classic Wingmaster owner would get an appreciative nod on such a walk while the dogs greet each other.

While I gave up, it was enjoyable learning the many options.
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Old January 30, 2021, 05:42 PM   #6
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I have a 00 grade L.C. Smith made in 1913 IIRC. It's just an old beater but it's still rock solid. The guy I got it from was using 3 inch magnum turkey loads in it and it's still as tight as it ever was.
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Old January 30, 2021, 05:52 PM   #7
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Maybe you could find a book "Best Guns" ...I believe by McCintosh?

Its a study of the fine old American Doubles.

Among the best is he Ithaca N.I.D. (New Ithaca Double)

Fox/Fox Sterlingworth are worthy of consideration.

I am NOT,BTW,putting any other fine shotgun down.
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Old January 30, 2021, 06:01 PM   #8
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I understand the nostalgia over a SXS shotgun. I started out with a Savage 311 many moons past. If I were to be looking for a SXS these days, I would look for (in this order) a Browning BSS, a Winchester 24, or an Ithaca SKB. And yes, they are made in Japan. They are pretty much the only SXS shotguns I think will hold up to extensive use like trap or skeet shooting. The LC Smith is a rather delicate shotgun, any LeFevers are 100 years old and delicate, Remington SXSs same, old Ithacas are pretty but if it breaks you are out of luck for parts, and Winchester 21s draw stupid money. A BSS is not cheap, but is one of the best available. Winchester 24s never really got a lot of respect, but they are a solid gun that will hold up to hard use.

As far as newer guns, CZ sells a nice SXS that is Turkish made, but I hear of lots of problems with them. I'm not sure if Beretta still sells a SXS.
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Old January 30, 2021, 06:41 PM   #9
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the most forgotten and overlooked... iver Johnson is the way to go. hercules grade is a good one.

another overlooked gun is the lefever. good luck shopping.
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Old January 30, 2021, 10:11 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorch View Post
I understand the nostalgia over a SXS shotgun. I started out with a Savage 311 many moons past. If I were to be looking for a SXS these days, I would look for (in this order) a Browning BSS, a Winchester 24, or an Ithaca SKB. And yes, they are made in Japan. They are pretty much the only SXS shotguns I think will hold up to extensive use like trap or skeet shooting. The LC Smith is a rather delicate shotgun, any LeFevers are 100 years old and delicate, Remington SXSs same, old Ithacas are pretty but if it breaks you are out of luck for parts, and Winchester 21s draw stupid money. A BSS is not cheap, but is one of the best available. Winchester 24s never really got a lot of respect, but they are a solid gun that will hold up to hard use.



As far as newer guns, CZ sells a nice SXS that is Turkish made, but I hear of lots of problems with them. I'm not sure if Beretta still sells a SXS.
In my reading, that's the first I've heard of LC Smiths being described as delicate. Can you say a little more about what you mean? I don't see myself shooting more than 400-500 rounds per year. I certainly don't want something truly delicate that may wear out, but I'm not sure I'm likely to be the guy who shoots a shotgun so much that it would shoot loose unless it was already well on its way.

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Old January 30, 2021, 10:39 PM   #11
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SXS

The side-by-side Charles Daly circa 1967-1968 were made by Beretta.

It's a sweet pheasant gun (12ga) and can be had at a reasonable price if you can find one.
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Old January 30, 2021, 10:43 PM   #12
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If you get an L.C. Smith, if the buttstock hasn't already cracked and been repaired, it will, unless you glass bed it.
A Winchester 24 is not as good a gun as a Stevens/Fox 311/B in my opinion.
A lot of old SxSs have funky buttstock dimensions - way too much DAH.
A BSS is a great gun, but it isn't an American build.
A Fox could be nice.
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Old January 31, 2021, 02:37 PM   #13
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Bold statement

You won't be happy shooting at clays, it is breaking the majority of those that brings happiness.
The above is difficult to impossible with a gun that does not fit you.

That greatly complicates the search for a classic SXS. I love my old LC Smith SBT and it actually fits me pretty well. That did require a change of pad, but that change did not alter the uncut butt of the gun. My Smith is a boxlock gun.

Other than a couple of models, LC Smith's are sidelocks, very common to find the head of the stock ruined by years of over oiling. Replacing the butt stock on a sidelock gun? Bring deep pockets and patience. A gun that fits can be restored by bedding the head of the stock if not too far gone.
I like the stock dimensions of LC Smiths better than most old shotguns.

It needs to fit first. Next up are the tighter than a nun's kiss old school full chokes. I would have a good barrel man open up what you purchase, thinwall chokes are an option on some guns. I would not. Pattern whatever you buy first!! Patterns can generally be improved and appearance is unaltered if opened up. Those old chokes were designed for fiber wads. A quick and dirty check? If a dime will not pass through the 12 gauge muzzle, it's full.

Restocking is often needed and the more popular the SXS was the greater your choices purchasing a stock that makes DIY a viable option and lowers cost if you choose to have the work done.

Speaking of gauge, I recommend 12 if shooting clay targets. A 20 can throw the same 1 1/8 max. the 12 will have a superior pattern.

Good on you for wanting a classic double, I love em. But then again I love old things in general...
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Old January 31, 2021, 07:01 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricklin View Post
You won't be happy shooting at clays, it is breaking the majority of those that brings happiness.

The above is difficult to impossible with a gun that does not fit you.



That greatly complicates the search for a classic SXS. I love my old LC Smith SBT and it actually fits me pretty well. That did require a change of pad, but that change did not alter the uncut butt of the gun. My Smith is a boxlock gun.



Other than a couple of models, LC Smith's are sidelocks, very common to find the head of the stock ruined by years of over oiling. Replacing the butt stock on a sidelock gun? Bring deep pockets and patience. A gun that fits can be restored by bedding the head of the stock if not too far gone.

I like the stock dimensions of LC Smiths better than most old shotguns.



It needs to fit first. Next up are the tighter than a nun's kiss old school full chokes. I would have a good barrel man open up what you purchase, thinwall chokes are an option on some guns. I would not. Pattern whatever you buy first!! Patterns can generally be improved and appearance is unaltered if opened up. Those old chokes were designed for fiber wads. A quick and dirty check? If a dime will not pass through the 12 gauge muzzle, it's full.



Restocking is often needed and the more popular the SXS was the greater your choices purchasing a stock that makes DIY a viable option and lowers cost if you choose to have the work done.



Speaking of gauge, I recommend 12 if shooting clay targets. A 20 can throw the same 1 1/8 max. the 12 will have a superior pattern.



Good on you for wanting a classic double, I love em. But then again I love old things in general...
Thanks. I also love old things in general.

Is the issue with those sidelock sticks being prone to breakage and oil penetration an LC specific issue or a broader sidelock issue?

More questions:

I'm a shade under 6-feet with a slim body and long arms (I wear a 40-long suit jacket if that means anything here). I've never really had a problem with most standard stocks in terms of length of pull. What range should I look for in terms of drop? I know you don't aim a shotgun, but I'm a rifle shooter (flintlocks and the like mostly) 90% of the time, so I'm very used to a good cheek weld on the stock.

Someone on another forum recommended looking into some of the Anson-and-Deeley based boxlock English guns. I'm certainly open to the idea, though I have even less of an idea what to look for there. I mostly only know the really expensive names (Holland, Purdy, Westley, and so forth). There is an interesting looking Greener on GB in the right price range.

Thoughts on this as a potential direction?
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/890440812

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Old February 1, 2021, 09:48 AM   #15
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My personal feelings are Ithaca and Remington are way over looked when talking about American classic doubles. I know quite a bit more about Remingtons and that's what I mostly look for. Even though they usually went after the average man they did at one time produce a SxS that was more costly than the best made Parker. It was their "Special" and only three are known to exist, all in museums. They used the Anson and Deeley boxlock action design, the most used and proven action in the world for SxSs, and the most trouble free there is. All internal action parts are polished and hand fitted, unlike many guns of today. Remington got out of the SxS business about 1910, one of the first big manufactures of SxSs to do so. They were making pump guns and autos cheaper. They were also the first American company to make semi-autos in the USA, the Browning Auto-5 [ that was made in Belgium ] and called it the Model 11. Anyway, they made a fine SxS that's mainly overlooked today. I own six 1984s, their first hammerless SxS, and three hammer guns. I shoot clays three days a week, every week, with one of them. About the only thing I've had to replace is a top lever spring on two of the 1894s. I also have four Parkers and one Lefever. I don't consider any old American SxS delicate. Will they break ? Sure, but anything man made will break if you use it enough. With the American made guns, there are still plenty of people stocking the old parts so they're easier to find than foreign made gun parts. Chokes are easy enough to open up, and not that expensive to have done. Stocks fitting todays shooter could be a problem if you're one who likes to shoot with his head bent down and out. I stand upright with my head held in a normal everyday position and bring the gun up to my face. That way I can look out of my eyes the way I'd normally do, through the center. You'll find the old guns will usually fit.
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Old February 1, 2021, 12:21 PM   #16
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ok, so youre adding English guns to your quest? if so....you may be opening pandoras financial box!
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Old February 1, 2021, 02:00 PM   #17
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Hi,
Yes the primary issue with stock damage is with sidelock guns in general. The stock inletting is complex vs. a boxlock gun. I have seen recommendations to store these guns muzzle down to prevent the oil from migrating in to the stock wood. Not a bad idea.
I like a long length of pull for shooting trap, I am not alone, that tends to be common. In general the old doubles can have lots of "drop" in the stock design.
IMO LC Smith guns are not "fragile" at all. I'm no guru of stock fitting by any stretch, best place to learn more are clay target forums in general. Trapshooters dot com etc.
The LC Smith collectors site has a lot of good data.
I have a couple of 311 pattern guns, a 20 and a 12. I call them my workingman's guns, they are serviceable, and handle like the proverbial pig on a shovel.
That is one of the things gained with higher end American doubles, they tend to be much better in the hand. Balance is superior.
I'm a lanky 6 footer myself, if a gun has not been cut down I can generally add enough length via the recoil pad to fit well for me.
There are some good American doubles that don't break the bank. Ithica, Remington, and Winchester of course, and lots more. The Ruger O/U guns can be OK, but not for high volume shooting, you will see very few at the trap and skeet ranges. They just don't hold up to high volume shooting, likely fine for a few hundred per year.
Lots of great O/U guns out there too. Older Miroku guns are very well made and durable. There are always the B guns, Browning and Beretta, hard to go wrong there.
That Greener you linked looks very nice. It is as is so I would want it in my hands before I parted with dollars. Easy for me I have tons of FF miles to go see stuff cheap. I do understand the as is listings. Too many people ship out a nice gun, unscrupulous "buyers" swap parts and send the gun back to the seller. Parts can be an issue, buying a gun that was produced in good quantities can help when a 100 year old part breaks. Often a good smith can make the part for a common old double or the part is being reproduced.
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Old February 1, 2021, 02:39 PM   #18
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ok, so youre adding English guns to your quest? if so....you may be opening pandoras financial box!
Only in as far as there might be a good option in my range, like the Greener in that link.

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Old February 1, 2021, 02:59 PM   #19
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just remember, most sbs guns were seeing the end of their popularity when the o&u was just coming out. most were out of production by the mid 50's.
so...(any) sbs is old and has most likely been fixed, repaired or refinished to keep it going.
granted, youll stumble across those well kept and shot little, but the good ones will cost a bit more, since those in the know, know a good gun.
so...when you see one (in your price range) be alert. odds are its going to be fixed up or about to wear out, if not worn already.
sometimes paying a little more pays off in the long run.
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Old February 1, 2021, 05:19 PM   #20
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Stuck in the 60's brings up great points. Condition condition condition, either very well cared for, or tucked away time capsule is my first consideration.

Shooter grade is much easier to find in older doubles. A reblue and a stock refinish can be a good thing for "using guns" and alterations from original can make a good gun affordable. Just watch out for Bubba!

Not appealing to collectors can be a good thing for those of us that use these guns vs. those that preserve them.

Both are good things, and many do choose both. I enjoy seeing really fine guns used as intended. My LC Smith stays in it's case when it's raining. It rains a lot here.

Shotguns that were made primarily for clay targets can be very nice condition wise.
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Old February 2, 2021, 02:23 PM   #21
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I have to echo "stuckinthesixties" and "ricklin". The internal condition, round count, and past usage will be unknown on the older SxS's, and parts availability could be problematic. Instead, I would buy a current production gun.

CZ makes two tiers of SxS's. The lower tier is the bobwhite and it is simply a re-badged turkish huglu. They reportedly have problems with firing pin and hammer spring breakage. The upper tier is the Sharp tail. A short while ago, CZ invested in new CNC machinery at huglu for the manufacture of their premium O/U and SxS's. The lock works and firing pin were re-designed and coil springs were used for the hammers instead of flat springs. I purchased a new sharp tail last summer for about 1,000 $. The fit and finish are excellent. Obviouly I can't yet speak to its longevity.

The other option is a new Savage Fox. You should go the the savage website and view the new Fox. It has everything you wanted, including double triggers. It would truly be an heirloom shotgun. The problem is that it is twice your budget. However, if it is financially possible, I would look closely at the new Fox.

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Old February 2, 2021, 04:13 PM   #22
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Lots of guns

A perusal of Gunbroker and other auction sites will find loads of older SXS shotguns.
The problem? Separating the "wheat from the chaff" IE: finding those good guns when pictures are the only thing we have.

Again I understand the as is policies. I might risk a few hundred, if I am spending close to 1 K or more I would require either an inspection period, or go see the gun myself.
Mirror bores can be a well cared for gun, or Bubba with a brake cylinder hone getting ALL the pits out and making a fine gun dangerous to fire.
How is it choked? What are the stock dimensions?
The intriguing guns that may be a real bargain are often from sellers that can't provide important data. Most pawn shops don't know how to measure stock dimensions and do not have a choke gauge.
Cracked stocks are very common on old doubles. Replacing the stock on a sidelock gun is NOT DIY territory. Some can be saved by glass bedding, the inletting is very complex for sidelocks. Perhaps teenagers pulling both triggers? Nah, just old wood and in many cases too much oil.
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Old February 2, 2021, 04:35 PM   #23
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One thing with older guns is also the stock dimensions; those old guns have a LOT more drop than guns of more recent vintage and as a result, usually do not fit folks that well.
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Old February 2, 2021, 04:38 PM   #24
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A good place to look would be:
www.gunsinternational.com

This is a sale site, NOT an auction; most sellers are reputable brick and mortar establishments with excellent results. You can select by name, type, US, or English of whatever.

One friend collects old SxS and he loves buying from Rock Island Auctions; he has purchased many Euro double guns for little money because they weren't a H&H or Boss or similar high-end but a typical Birmingham or french boxlock
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Old February 2, 2021, 04:43 PM   #25
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If you get in to clays

A lot of folks enjoy shooting clay targets. I call it an expensive addiction.

A more modern gun with good parts availability would be a superior choice if that might be you.
Only way to get good at shooting clay targets is to shoot a lot of them.

My point is the round count will be high should you really get in to shooting clays.
That can be a problem with guns that are hard to get parts for.

An old SXS is great for a few hundred per year, when hundreds become thousands, perhaps not so much.
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