The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Semi-automatics

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old April 7, 2019, 05:10 PM   #26
Red Devil
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2010
Posts: 175
My shooter M1 has a near new '55 Springfield Bbl. and shoots both HXP and PPU M2 ball into ~ 2.5" at 100 yards from field positions.

Check your lock-up.

The bullet is long gone before any part of the action starts to move.




Red
Red Devil is offline  
Old April 8, 2019, 11:49 PM   #27
bamaranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2009
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 7,567
Garands

I have 2 Garands, one with SA WWII era barrel, and uncut op-rod, and another with a WWII receiver, but a late 50's LMR re-barrel and NM op rod. I have recently equipped the LMR rifle with a scoutscope. I load for both of them, but only shoot the LMR rifle to any degree. I'll add that anybody loading for the Garand needs to read up and get savvy, as Garand ammo needs to have certain attention to detail that your old Savage 110 does not require.

When my eyes were still sharp, the LMR rifle, despite having a crown that gauged marginally, with the GI peep, shot very well, I'd say 2.5 MOA. The older WWII barreled rifle would do about as well. It's crown was much tighter BTW. I've shot the LMR rifle regularly, but it will still shoot 2-2.5 MOA and the scoutscope allows my 60+ eyes to see better and still enjoy the old rifles, tradition be danged.

I'm not sure I would be satisfied with a Garand that was shooting 5 MOA, and would try different ammo PDQ. I'd also deep clean that bore with a copper cutter, several times I think. It likely has seen a lot of bullets down range.
bamaranger is offline  
Old April 9, 2019, 04:47 AM   #28
Nathan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2001
Posts: 5,485
So, I’m obviously struggling. I think my biggest issue is target size or sight picture. Any advice? What target should I be shooting?
Nathan is offline  
Old April 9, 2019, 05:43 PM   #29
1stmar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 2,361
4” bullseye, maybe starr w a 5”. Make sure you focus on front sight and that your sight picture is the same feom shot to shot. I make sure the ears on the front sight just touch the edge of the rear sight and that the base of the front sight is at the same point from shot to shot. Consistent sight picture is key. Front sight focus is key. Then apply fundamentals of breathing, trigger control and follow through.
What type of patterns are you seeing? Vertical or horizontal stringing?
1stmar is offline  
Old May 8, 2019, 05:17 PM   #30
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,679
Quote:
Originally Posted by T. O'Heir View Post
Accuracy with an M1 Rifle depends on the barrel and the ammo. 5" at 100 isn't horrible though. As I recall, 3" at 100 was the requirement for M2 Ball. 2" at 100 means a Match grade barrel with all the accurizing techniques done to it(sights, trigger, bedding, etc.) and match grade ammo. Even then it's kind of dreaming to expect 2".
Creedmoor Sports ammo is not match ammo. It's not .30 M2 equivalent either. It's more like .30 M1 ammo.
2 inches at 100 yards was easy with good match conditioned Garands.

US Navy rebuilt 7.62 NATO Garands had to test about 4 inches extreme spread max with 3 clips of a good lot of M118 match ammo at 300 yards. 1.33 MOA.

Rebulleting that ammo with 168 or 180 Sierra match bullets would sometimes test under 2 inches at 300, about 4 to 6 inches at 600. Powder had a 3/10ths grain spread in charge weights. Replacing M118 ammo bullet and powder with IMR4320 under a Sierra 190 was best at 600 yards testing 4 to 5 inches

The USN rebuilt 30-06 Garands had to test about 6 inches at 300 yards with M72 match ammo.

All the USN arsenal match grade barrels were air gauged and groove diameters had to be .3079" maximum. Larger diameter ones would not shoot commercial .3082" diameter match bullets very accurate, but Lapua 170 and 185 grain match bullets .3092" diameter very accurate.

Nobody ever got best accuracy with reloaded cases fired in M1 or M14 match rifles. Their out of square bolt faces made case heads out of square. New cases are best.

Last edited by Bart B.; May 8, 2019 at 07:44 PM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old May 10, 2019, 06:42 AM   #31
Road_Clam
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2013
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 1,628
My short range M1 go-to load is the Hornady 150 fmjbt and 48.4 gr of 4064 which gets me about 2730 fps . I'm at about 2.53 MOA at 100 yds . I tested with an optic and shot off a precision rest and rear bag and the above load has proved consistent for me.
__________________
"To be old an wise you must have been young and stupid"
Road_Clam is offline  
Old May 10, 2019, 09:17 AM   #32
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,679
There are people who know the Garand 30-06 barrel's 1:10 twist is too fast for best accuracy with the 150 to 173 grain bullets it used. Some were part of the groups developing the M14 rifle and its 7.62 NATO ammo. The same bullet weights were used leaving about 100 fps slower than from M1 barrels. A 1:12 twist proved to be the best.

If you shoot 150 grain bullets over 2900 fps from your Garand, a 1:13 twist is ideal.

Last edited by Bart B.; May 10, 2019 at 09:35 AM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old October 16, 2021, 11:37 AM   #33
hps1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 26, 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 423
A bit late to the party, but the Garand is capable of shooting a lot tighter than given credit for with a bit of tuning and proper loads. Also, thought I'd share a solution that other "over the hill" shooters with poor eyesight might benefit from.

Was issued my first Garand in 1954. Shot NM Garands w/an army AMU which would shoot 2moa or less w/M73 Match ammo. Upon separation continued shooting a DCM Garand that I bedded and tuned to NM specs using all original parts, including standard issue barrel for many years. Only NM parts used in the build were front and rear sights. Shot master class in NRA XTC matches with that rifle, even after the change to the "new" 10x targets with the smaller 1moa x ring and 2 moa 10 ring.

Some time in the 90's had to give up service rifle and switch to NRA match rifle category with a bolt gun since I could no longer see the sights on the Garand. Unfortunately, the Garand was reluctantly "benched" for a number of years, until I came up with an idea of mounting a special base that replaced the rear sight and on which I could mount an optic to get the old girl out of the safe.

The mount worked as planned, unfortunately I first worked my way through a Millett red dot (which was big improvement over irons, but w/my old eyes produced groups in range of 4moa....much larger than the capabilities of the rifle!)



Then I discovered the compact Primary Arms prism optic, which provided 3x magnification and barely cleared the loading/ejection port of the Garand.




Spoiled her girlish figure, but boy does she shoot!


Using 125 gr. NBT handloads, fired five shot group (a bit low and to right of POA); made sight correction and shot five more (centered)

Not much to look at, but is now a precision paper, punch,



but holds her own in the field, as well and no longer languishes in a dark corner of the safe.



175 yards off shooting sticks.

Regards,
hps
__________________
Gun Owners note: The Second Amendment is not about hunting! Join NRA @: http://membership.nrahq.org/

Last edited by hps1; October 16, 2021 at 11:45 AM.
hps1 is offline  
Old November 10, 2021, 03:41 PM   #34
Reloadron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2016
Location: Cleveland, Ohio Suburbs
Posts: 1,675
Nathan:
Quote:
So, I’m obviously struggling. I think my biggest issue is target size or sight picture. Any advice? What target should I be shooting?
Strictly my take on this. I suggest you find and buy some targets. Around Page 13 of NRA High Power Rifle Rules you will see targets listed by size dimensions and name. They include all targets used in competition including reduced range targets. Next I suggest you become familiar with "sight picture and sight alignment" techniques as well as "holding and squeezing" techniques. The latter to include your breathing.

The M1 Garand like the M14 can be dry fired all day long. Place a small target on a wall with a black bull and practice. Over and over again, sight picture, sight alignment, holding and squeezing. Then and only then worry about live fire exercise. Practice is what is going to get you and your rifle where you want to be. Dry fire exercises are just fine. Personally for target I like to hold at 6 O'Clock on the black. This makes it easier to hold on the target.

While rolling your own will yield the best ammunition when you can find it Seller and Bellot or even Winchester or UMC 30-06 with 150 grain FMJ stuff should do fine at 100 and 200 yard shooting. While the Greek HXP was good stuff I doubt you are likely to find any as it came and went long ago. No sense in worrying about it.

Group sizes depend on a whole pile of variables so I would just run with what you have for now and see what you get. Take your time.

Ron
Reloadron is offline  
Old November 11, 2021, 12:09 AM   #35
bamaranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2009
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 7,567
targets and ammo

The sub 3 moa groups I described with my rifles was dependent on ammo. I load for the Garand and the best shooting FMJBT for me was the W-W 147 grain pill. I bought several thousand back when the price was sub $90 dollars per, and that was a good slug in the Garands and also my .308 bolt rifles for affordable practice.

The bulk FMJBT I bought from Wiedener's years later did not shoot as well and were likely of less quality. I do not have my notebooks at hand, but the 168 HPBT match bullets shot well, from Sierra or Speer. I still have a bunch of Sierra 150 gr PSP's loaded up (flat base Pro hunter) but the LMR rifle, scoped, is presently zeroed for 165 gr Hornady Interlock's, another BT.
bamaranger is offline  
Old November 11, 2021, 08:32 AM   #36
mehavey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 6,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by COSteve
I've also found that the CMP Greek M-2 ball ammo is decently accurate
I'd second that, as well also noting that reasonable handloads duplicating HXP and Lake City ballistics also do well:
See https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...9&postcount=27

Only 50 yards, but it was just to establish a point of departure at the time.
mehavey is offline  
Old November 18, 2021, 12:49 PM   #37
hps1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 26, 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 423
Good advice from Reloadron above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bamaranger
The sub 3 moa groups I described with my rifles was dependent on ammo. I load for the Garand and the best shooting FMJBT for me was the W-W 147 grain pill. I bought several thousand back when the price was sub $90 dollars per, and that was a good slug in the Garands and also my .308 bolt rifles for affordable practice.
Shot thousands of those 147 gr. bullets from IMI for practice back in the 80's. As I recall, that is about what I paid for them. They came 1000 pcs in a heavy poly "combat pack" I believe is what they called it. Very accurate bullet and had the copper jackets. Got one batch that (I believe) were labeled Winchester in a box of 2000 or so, but they were not quite as accurate as the IMI. Calculated cost per round (from memory) to be about $.13-.14). Those were the days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mehavey
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6854999&postcount=27
That's some good info! Didn't have a chronograph back then, but based on my comeups out to 600 yds I settled on 47 gr of H4895 behind 150 gr SMKs (pretty much duplicated M2 ball) and same load under 168 gr SMKs close to M72 Match ammo.

Regards,
hps
__________________
Gun Owners note: The Second Amendment is not about hunting! Join NRA @: http://membership.nrahq.org/
hps1 is offline  
Old November 25, 2021, 03:39 PM   #38
Donald duck
Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2021
Posts: 33
A Garand can have a new barrel. The best barrel money can buy. And it will still be a 6 moa rifle or worse if the stock and handguards are not fitted correctly.
Donald duck is offline  
Old November 26, 2021, 11:56 AM   #39
hps1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 26, 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 423
Quote:
A Garand can have a new barrel. The best barrel money can buy. And it will still be a 6 moa rifle or worse if the stock and handguards are not fitted correctly.
Bedding the stock is probably the most important improvement to be made, but if you can obtain a copy of the NRA booklet "The M1 Rifle", following the 19 points shown on page 8 will squeeze the most accuracy possible from your Garand. Article also shows how to bed the stock and handguards in detail. Looks like it is no longer available from NRA (?) but may be on ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12498718658...67496e89058634


One DCM M1 I accurized had an extremely sloppy gas cyl/bbl fit. Decided to try a very unconventional fix on that one. Drilled and tapped the cylinder for a small allen set screw under the front sight. Tightening the screw pulls cylinder up into the bottom splines and locks the cylinder to the barrel. Reduced group size considerably, but any attempt to remove the gas cylinder without loosening the set screw on that rifle will be futile.

Regards,
hps
__________________
Gun Owners note: The Second Amendment is not about hunting! Join NRA @: http://membership.nrahq.org/
hps1 is offline  
Old November 26, 2021, 12:47 PM   #40
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,679
hps1,

That's me aiming my Garand at the 1982 National Matches shown in post 5 in:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...highlight=1982

Last edited by Bart B.; November 26, 2021 at 12:54 PM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old Yesterday, 11:19 PM   #41
hps1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 26, 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 423
Quote:
hps1,

That's me aiming my Garand at the 1982 National Matches shown in post 5 in:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...highlight=1982
Hi Bart; thanks for the link.
Quote:
Plan on bringing some copies of the USN Small Arms Match Conditioning Unit's Operating Procedure for Match Conditioning of 7.62mm Rifle MK 2 MOD 1
Have never seen the Navy's tips on accurizing the M1. Assume they are similar or same as those listed in the NRA booklet?

Are you still competing? Gave up service rifle altogether @ age 60 but managed to stretch it out another 5 or 6 years w/bolt guns & aperture sights before hanging it up for good.

Regards,
hps
__________________
Gun Owners note: The Second Amendment is not about hunting! Join NRA @: http://membership.nrahq.org/
hps1 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.06533 seconds with 8 queries