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Old October 22, 2021, 07:50 PM   #26
Aguila Blanca
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Originally Posted by ballardw
Apparently failed the second item in the list:
Not only the second. Looks like they failed numbers 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 13, and 17.
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Old October 22, 2021, 09:13 PM   #27
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The account I recall was that they had used dummy rounds so as to show a loaded revolver from the front. When they changed to blanks, a bullet or just an empty jacket stuck in a chamber throat, to be propelled by a blank.
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Old October 22, 2021, 09:35 PM   #28
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Story today is Baldwin was handed a prop gun that was loaded with live ammunition and was told it was safe for the scene.

Why oh why is live ammo anywhere near a movie set?
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Old October 22, 2021, 09:54 PM   #29
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Story today is Baldwin was handed a prop gun that was loaded with live ammunition and was told it was safe for the scene.
Other reports say there was one live round in the gun -- which seems to make no sense whatsoever. It's going to be awhile before the actual facts have been firmly established. And why was an assistant director handing out guns rather than the movie's armorer?

Quote:
Why oh why is live ammo anywhere near a movie set?
Good question. It's a definite violation of what most sources say have been movie industry protocols since the Brandon Lee incident. There is no valid reason to have any live ammunition on a movie set.

However -- that still begs the question of how the bullet struck two behind the camera people. There's one thing that can't be changed (although, so far, it's being swept under the carpet): Alec Baldwin pointed a firearm at someone -- not as part of the script action -- and pulled the trigger. And, since it's a western, that means it was a single action firearm, so he had to manually cock the firearm before he pulled the trigger. That makes it an intentional discharge, not an accident.

I'm 77 years old, which means I grew up in the heyday of the television westerns -- the Lone Ranger, Hopalong Cassidy, Gene Autry, Roy Rogers, Lash LaRue -- all of 'em. I have no idea how many cap guns I had as a kid. We were taught that you don't even point a cap gun at a person, because it develops bad habits that can translate to when using real guns. How is it that Alec Baldwin, who has starred in multiple movies and has obviously been on a lot of sets where guns were present, failed to observe that simple rule?

NRA: "ALWAYS Keep The Gun Pointed In A Safe Direction."

Cooper: "NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY"
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Old October 22, 2021, 10:03 PM   #30
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I was in the woods hunting with my father at age 5. I was on a deer stand by myself at age 7 albeit a ground blind and my Dad walked 75 yards or so from me and watched me. My late father was a 6’-4” East Texan with a Cherokee roll number. I was scared to death of him and followed his orders to the tee.

Our sons knew this and were furious since I made them wait until they were 16 to hunt by themselves or with friends. My reasoning was we lived in North Dallas with yuppies and transplants who knew nothing about firearms. I was afraid one of their friends who did not come from a culture of hunting and firearms might shoot them through ignorance.

People like Mr. Baldwin are dangerous. I was a hunting guide for 7 years. I dealt with his type all the time. You cannot tell them anything. They make more money than you and they know it all.
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Old October 22, 2021, 10:34 PM   #31
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However -- that still begs the question of how the bullet struck two behind the camera people.
Actors are trained to not point their prop guns directly at another actor; to aim to the side to avoid a potential repeat of the Brandon Lee accident. This may explain why two members of the production staff, and not another actor, were hit. Just a guess...

Let's not beat up on Alec too much just because he has been anti-gun in the past. There is a lot of blame to go around. Why was an assistant director handling the prop guns? Where was the armorer? What was the armorer's level of training? Why was a live round involved? What were the safety training protocols? Why were humans on set in the direction of the muzzle? Could Mr. Baldwin see the people that were hit? Lots of questions to answer. The media grapevine is also reporting safety complaints from the production staff prior to the accident.
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Old October 22, 2021, 10:47 PM   #32
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I'm curious regarding how and why a "prop gun" could chamber a live round.

I've worked training military and government protective forces my entire career, which includes use of "Blank Firing Adapters" in the 1970s up to the current generation of MILES weapons. Due to several tragic accidents involving live rounds introduced by mistake to weapons equipped with Blank Firing Adapters and/or otherwise set up to fire blanks, ultimately firearms intended to be used during exercises were modified to preclude live rounds from being chambered.

It would seem that an entire industry that routinely uses "prop guns" would likewise set them up such that live rounds could not be chambered.

It is speculative to suggest this accident was caused by introducing a live round into a "prop gun", the cause could have involved other factors. But it would seem logical that any "prop gun" not be capable of chambering a live round for precisely this reason.
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Old October 22, 2021, 11:26 PM   #33
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https://www.bigcountryhomepage.com/n...y01SjSmXs4T1f0

According to this article, there had been previous gun safety events on the movie set as well as other tensions about working conditions.

There seems to be so many items that could have caused this tragedy on their own. It was bound to happen, sad could have been prevented.
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Old October 23, 2021, 12:13 AM   #34
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I am big on muscle memory. You do not point any barrel of any gun at anything you do not intend to destroy. I’ve called Ducks in blinds with multiple guns hundreds if not thousands of mornings with my Lab doing the conservation work. There is no grey area when it comes to muzzle control. Where the muzzle or barrel points is where the payload points. I am a nice man. When it comes to firearms, I am not nice. There is no room for errror. The more I learn about this story, the more I know it was a manure show. That said, this one is on Mr. Baldwin speaking as a professional who works with firearms. Baldwin had been on hundreds of sets where firearms were a part of the plot. He knew the lay of the land. As my Cherokee Dad always said: “ There’s a dead cat on the line somewhere “.
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Old October 23, 2021, 12:55 AM   #35
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Before things get too spun in any particular direction, I'd like to point out that the "official" investigation hasn't said anything of substance or detail yet.

And there is already a ton of crap on the net and it cannot ALL be correct.

All we "know" at this point is that the reports match on a few vague points. Baldwin was holding ...something, (they say prop gun, but not WHAT prop gun) it "discharged". No mention of more than one shot, so we assume it was a single discharge. A woman was killed and a man injured. Those victims are identified.

The rest of the details are all over the place. "on the set" and "during filming" are both used by different reports and they are not the same exact thing.

Some are saying it was live ammo, but that fact has not been solidly established YET.

The Union for the prop guys released comment saying it was a live round, but it made a point of stating there were no union members in the prop crew (implyng union members would have followed the rules) that the prop guys on the set were "local New Mexico people", implying that the live round was there because Union guys were not....a real piece of CYA crap.

Mention was made here that the movie was a western so the gun had to be a single action, but that is an assumption not yet in evidence. No mention of what the gun was, other than "a prop gun" has been put forth as of this time. Was it a handgun? SA revolver? Rifle? Shotgun??? We DON'T KNOW, YET.

I'm sure that once the official finding gives us ACCURATE detailed information, it will be studied extensively. I expect it to be legally ruled an accident. The question in my mind is what degree of negligence will be assigned to whom, and whether or not it will be criminal negligence, or some other finding in the end.

I'd say the responsible parties are the person that loaded the gun, and the person holding it when it discharged.

Answers to all my questions about all the rest of the details must wait on the official findings. Judging what happened at this point in time is truly "going off half cocked".

I have some theories, but until we have more facts, none of them are worth sharing. Nor, IMHO, are anyone else's theories, at this time.
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Old October 23, 2021, 01:43 AM   #36
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The idea that the actors on a set are responsible for gun safety is pretty far-fetched.

All kinds of gun safety rules are broken on gun sets of necessity and by design.

The on-site armorer is responsible for insuring that things are safe. That guns capable of firing live rounds are never loaded with live rounds, that there aren't barrel obstructions in blanks, that blanks are discharged safely.

Unless Baldwin was the armorer (acting armorer), or loaded that gun with live rounds himself when no one was looking or did not follow the armorer's instructions, the responsibility for this incident falls on the armorer.
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Old October 23, 2021, 02:48 AM   #37
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Quote:
Baldwin is just another Hollywood personality who hates guns but doesn't mind collecting big bucks for using them in screen. In other words: a hypocrite.
By this sort of feeble definition, everybody in acting is a hypocrite or likely will be. There are Christian actors that play Muslims, men and women involved in rape scenes that do not support rape at all, actors that play the roles of murders, bank robbers, and child molesters without every being supporters of those things. There are gay men that play straight men and straight men that play gay men.

It is called "acting" for a reason.
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Old October 23, 2021, 05:53 AM   #38
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By this sort of feeble definition, everybody in acting is a hypocrite or likely will be. There are Christian actors that play Muslims, men and women involved in rape scenes that do not support rape at all, actors that play the roles of murders, bank robbers, and child molesters without every being supporters of those things. There are gay men that play straight men and straight men that play gay men.
I am a big fan of Baldwin's acting. His work is Glengarry Glen Ross was my favorite film scene. And he's a genuinely funny guy.

But there is something hypocritical about a guy with a powerful media voice sitting in his Upper West Side apartment delivering lectures on social media about what choices I should be able to make about gun ownership given that he works in an industry that glamorizes guns. Plus if a pro-gun actor like Selleck had an incident like this the media narrative would be much different.
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Old October 23, 2021, 07:11 AM   #39
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We can never be to careful with firearms. I catch these posts during the week when I am going 90 to nothing. Mr. Baldwin has to be sick with grief, guilt and remorse. It makes me consider safety that much more. It’s easy to get lazy if you carry a firearm daily with the frantic pace most of us maintain. I disagree with a lot of what comes out of Hollywood——most of it but gosh could you imagine being in Mr. Baldwin’s shoes? Agreed: Where was the armorer? May new protocols come from this to prevent it from happening again.
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Last edited by Lima Oscar 7; October 23, 2021 at 08:16 AM.
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Old October 23, 2021, 08:19 AM   #40
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Latest report shows that the person who handed Baldwin the gun.....shouted "cold gun". When interviewed after he/she said they didn't know it was loaded. Major screwup on his/her part. He/she may be in some serious deep doo doo.
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Old October 23, 2021, 08:26 AM   #41
Lima Oscar 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
By this sort of feeble definition, everybody in acting is a hypocrite or likely will be. There are Christian actors that play Muslims, men and women involved in rape scenes that do not support rape at all, actors that play the roles of murders, bank robbers, and child molesters without every being supporters of those things. There are gay men that play straight men and straight men that play gay men.

It is called "acting" for a reason.
There are a lot of people I disagree with in politics and entertainment but I do not wish i’ll fates for them. If do pray that in certain cases, their efforts will fail but I don’t hate them. I will stand my ground and respectfully counter their narratives. I won’t stoop to their level. Mr. Baldwin is one of those people. I choose not to support Hollywood with my dollars out of conviction and since I wound rather be in the woods than hypnotized by Hollywood. It would be great if we could live by the axioms I was raised in part upon, do your job, take care of your business, take care of your animals and let don’t worry about what others are doing. Mr. Baldwin set himself up for this lambasting by second amendment purveyors. Average folks want to be entertained by entertainers. They don’t want to be preached to by self-righteous zealots. My fear is this will result in an even more maniacal push to limit our freedoms since it hits home in the epicenter of wokeism.
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Old October 23, 2021, 08:33 AM   #42
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Old October 23, 2021, 09:06 AM   #43
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News articles posted are saying the Union folks ,including the normal armorer,walked off the set due to some form of unsafe working conditions.

There was also a suggestion that this "misfire" was not the first that occurred on set.

It was also alleged that the "Armorer of the day" was new to the job and was there because the Union Armorer was one of the folks who walked off.

I did not copy a link and run to post it here...like most news today the article was about like this post ......"an unidentified source said" It wasn't something that could easily be checked out.

Either the state or fed version of OSHA has moved in.

I expect the script for the story is being written right now for maximum tail coverage and minimal embarrassment for VIP's.

Back in the days of the Western as the mainstay of TV and Movies, I do not recall hearing of people being shot on set, and near every film had at least one gunfight.

The knowledge and procedures were probably in place filming Hopalong Cassidy. The Lone Ranger, Stagecoach, etc..

Its not like OSHA or the California Legislature needs to write a new code.

What needs to happen is "No Cover Up" and folks being held acountable for disregading established codes of safety.

Violations of old policy are not a reason to create new policy,as if a lack of having policy was the problem.
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Old October 23, 2021, 09:15 AM   #44
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Old October 23, 2021, 10:01 AM   #45
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Not sure all stage and screen armorers are qualified.

Having spent most of my adult life creating college level theatre I've had occasion to go to workshops on stage combat and firearms use. In one notable workshop the, supposedly qualified, instructor immediately put his finger on the trigger of every gun he handled. Turns out he was not a gun owner, shooter or hunter. Just passing on what he'd learned about firearms use on stage from those who went before him. Hmmmm . . . .

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Old October 23, 2021, 10:19 AM   #46
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Since Brandon Lee has been mentioned, I think you might want to read what Wikipedia says about his death. This is the best summary I have seen online.

"On March 31, 1993, Lee was filming a scene in The Crow where his character is shot and killed by thugs.[97] In the scene, Lee's character walks into his apartment and discovers his fiancée being beaten and raped, and a thug played by actor Michael Massee fires a Smith & Wesson Model 629 .44 Magnum revolver at Lee's character as he walks into the room.[98]

"In the film shoot preceding the fatal scene, the prop gun (which was a real revolver) was loaded with improperly-made dummy rounds, improvised from live cartridges that had the powder charges removed by the special effects crew, so in close-ups the revolver would show normal-looking ammunition. However, the crew neglected to remove the primers from the cartridges, and at some point before the fatal event, one of the rounds had been fired. Although there were no powder charges, the energy from the ignited primer was enough to separate the bullet from the casing and push it part-way into the gun barrel, where it got stuck — a dangerous condition known as a squib load. During the fatal scene, which called for the revolver to be fired at Lee from a distance of 3.6–4.5 meters (12–15 ft), the dummy cartridges were replaced with blank rounds, which contained a powder charge and the primer, but no solid bullet, allowing the gun to be fired with sound and flash effects without the risk of an actual projectile. However, the gun was not properly checked and cleared before the blank was fired, and the dummy bullet previously lodged in the barrel was then propelled forward by the blank's propellant and shot out the muzzle with almost the same force as if the round were live, striking Lee in the abdomen.[99][100]"
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Old October 23, 2021, 12:22 PM   #47
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well the net is aflame with things today, and more "information" is coming out, though still nothing OFFICIAL.

Among things I read this morning are
There were two (2) accidental "discharges" of "prop guns" in the week prior to the shooting.

The gun was handed to Baldwin by an associate producer (not the prop guy) and who told Baldwin "cold gun".

The woman was shot in the stomach

The woman was shot in the chest, and the guy was standing behind her, was wounded in the shoulder.

The scene to be filmed involved Baldwin shooting someone

This happened on the set but not during filming

Working conditions and safety was so bad union people walked off the set.

The production company refused to spend a nickel it didn't have to on safety
and so on, and so on....

Some of this might be true, some might not be...again, nothing official, YET.

One thing that does bug me, a personal thing, but since I am so firearm detail oriented, I cannot understand why they have not yet said what the gun was. I do not understand WHY they are withholding this information.

If it had been a car accident, the make and model of the car would be known and already released. This is not something it takes an investigation to discover. I can see not stating what was actually fired, yet, that would require an investigation, to determine for certain what it was, live round, or something else like the tragic combination of factors involved in the Brandon Lee shooting. But not stating what the gun was, just seems foolish, to me. I mean, its not as if they don't KNOW, right??

oh well, more "theatre" as time goes on, I'm sure. CYA is in full bloom here as well...
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Old October 23, 2021, 12:36 PM   #48
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One thing that does bug me, a personal thing, but since I am so firearm detail oriented, I cannot understand why they have not yet said what the gun was. I do not understand WHY they are withholding this information.
Post #2 from HiBC explains so much that we see in the "news".
Quote:
I notice news media folks often use terminology that perhaps virtue signals them as "proudly gun ignorant" to their peers.
Note: I am the one that bolded "proudly gun ignorant", not HiBC.

I think that it is a phrase that really hits the nail on the head.
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Old October 23, 2021, 12:47 PM   #49
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I was once asked to be the gun guy for a film. Often filmmakers throw in a firearm to have that anti-gun message in their movie. I reviewed the screenplay and declined after seeing that the firearm was going to be the bad guy.

Baldwin might be one of the biggest jerk-offs in Hollywood; I hope he gets slammed for this stunt.
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Old October 23, 2021, 01:15 PM   #50
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Often filmmakers throw in a firearm to have that anti-gun message in their movie. I reviewed the screenplay and declined after seeing that the firearm was going to be the bad guy.
I just recently re-watched the entire Lethal Weapon series and the not so subtle messaging in all of them never jumped out at me when I watched them as a kid in the 90s. Its either 2 or 3 where there are posters up all around the police station that say "Know Your Enemy, the NRA" etc. BUT I think with such great lines as "nailed em, both" I tend to look past it.

Even though a new headline seems to be popping up every few hours about this Baldwin incident, there really isn't any new information coming out. With him being a producer I feel like he's got the money and legal team to keep a tight lid on everything for now.

If you search for it, there is actually a video from the filming of Bad Boys where an armorer is showing Will Smith the prop guns, and someone grabs one and points it at him. Will snatches it out of the guys hand, clears it then hands it back while making a comment about "horrible gun safety".
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