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Old July 13, 2021, 04:53 PM   #1
steve4102
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Under 21 Handgun Ban Struck Down

The Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled Tuesday that banning anyone over 18 but under 21 from purchasing handguns violates the Second Amendment.

Here is the ruling.

https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/Opinions/192250.P.pdf


As this was from the 4th Circuit, how does this affect the rest of America?
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Old July 13, 2021, 04:57 PM   #2
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A decision by the Fourth Circuit is binding only in the region covered by the Fourth Circuit.

The decision can be used in cases in other courts as supporting opinion, but not as binding precedent.
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Old July 13, 2021, 05:09 PM   #3
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Dayum! The dissent is almost as long as the decision.

The dissent begins with a disparaging reference to "the gun lobby," so it's fairly obvious that there's probably more than a bit of bias at work there.

The decision was by a 3-judge panel. I would expect the government to ask for an en banc rehearing.
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Old July 13, 2021, 11:10 PM   #4
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A good start, but it will probably die en banc.
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Old July 14, 2021, 02:02 AM   #5
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There has been a double standard (at least double perhaps double double) for the between 18 and 21 group.

And parts of it have fluctuated over the years. Like the drinking part. and now, today the guns, too...

I can remember the days when an 18yr old couldn't vote, or buy a beer, but could be sent off to war...

At 18 the Fed govt could put a machine gun in your hands and "send you off to die in a foreign land..." to protect, preserve, and defend our democratic way of life....

You could get married at 18. You certainly had to pay taxes...and you could enlist or be drafted....

Most folks thought it only fair to give 18yr olds the vote, even if it wasn't the smartest idea...

The GCA 68 set the first Federal age limits 18 for long guns, 21 for handguns, purchased from an FFL dealer.

This is a key point of that law, and one largely ignored today as various states passed their own more restrictive rules over time.

The GCA 68 did not say someone under 21 could not buy, or possess a handgun. Only that they could not buy one from an FFL dealer.

Even in the restrictive state of NY, back in those days, an under 21 person could get a pistol permit, and could buy a pistol second hand or receive one as a gift legally, following the regular permit process, as long as the judge issuing the permit agreed. I was one of those people, back then. I got my NY state pistol permit at age 18, and had my father's pistols listed on it. When my little brother turned 18, he got his, too, with those same guns on it, and for the same reason, in order to be able to legally keep them if something happened to Dad.
This whole idea of everyone under 21 shouldn't be allowed to have a handgun is a rather recent crop of BS.

Sadly as they say, the past is a different country, they do things differently there....

the biggest problem faced by advocates for the rights of the 18-20 group is that no one stays in that group. By the time our system addresses any claim of harm or denial of rights from someone in that age group, they have turned 21 and so, "it no longer matters" ...
yes, it does still matter, but when its no longer an ongoing thing, there isn't the same driving force to correct the problems.

And, the people who claim 18-20yrolds do some (ok, a lot of) stupid stuff aren't wrong, either.

so, where would you draw the line, to be fair? to protect the most people, and, hopefully, trample on the rights of the fewest??

I agree with the reasoning of the decision in general, but I doubt it will stand for much in our world today.

Point here is, if there has to be an arbitrary age limit for all (and not a case by case individual approval system) then shouldn't that limit be uniform, and as fair as possible??

One place I was stationed in the years when I was between 18 and 21, I could drink anything on post (duh) but off post in the civilian world, since I was over 18 I could drink beer but since I was under 21, I could not drink hard liquor. At the time that struck me as most unfair. After all, you get equally drunk on either.

Another place I was during those years, if you went off post, if you were "tall enough to see over the bar", you could drink anything they sold. (Germany)
(and, if you weren't tall enough, you could sit on a stool...)

So, Uncle Sam puts a machine gun in my hands at 18 but Uncle Joe doesn't think I should be able to touch a pistol until I'm 21....someway, that just don't seem right to me..
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Old July 14, 2021, 06:06 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP
the biggest problem faced by advocates for the rights of the 18-20 group is that no one stays in that group. By the time our system addresses any claim of harm or denial of rights from someone in that age group, they have turned 21 and so, "it no longer matters" ...
As happened in this case. One of the two plaintiffs has turned 21, so the decision comments that for him the case is mooted. However, the young lady is still only 19, so she remains a viable plaintiff.
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Old July 15, 2021, 09:17 PM   #7
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While I have my doubts that a person could consume enough Budweiser to reach the LD-50 level of intoxication,.....I am easily persuaded that similar drinking stunts performed using vodka or tequila have taken many people beyond that point.
I don't believe that anyone can transition from immature youth to wise adult at the stroke of midnight. I think our pre-21-young-adults need a little practice before being cut loose on everything at once.

Last edited by Pathfinder45; July 15, 2021 at 09:19 PM. Reason: additional content
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Old July 15, 2021, 11:01 PM   #8
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I think our pre-21-young-adults need a little practice before being cut loose on everything at once.
that sound sensible. How are they supposed to get "a little practice" with those things that are prohibited to them by law until they are 21??
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Old July 16, 2021, 11:54 AM   #9
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I think every state's National Guard should offer courses at an affordable fee for non-disqualified persons to become better qualified. among those courses could be handgun qualification courses for young adults. Perhaps no one under 21 should be able to purchase a handgun unless they get qualified.
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Old July 16, 2021, 12:30 PM   #10
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As long as we put people into groups and regulate them based on arbitrary requirements (age, race, gender, religion, etc) then we are going to be preventing SOME irresponsible people and restricting the rights of SOME responsible people, because you will find both types in every group, no matter what criteria you use to define the group.

An age limit is the one thing that will change without the person doing anything other than continuing to live.

I've never agreed with the idea that at a certain magic age you are a responsible adult. Lots of people go beyond that age without becoming responsible adults. Some never do get there...

Legal adult, yes. But doesn't it seem just a bit unfair to tell an 18yr old that "you're an adult, with adult rights, here, and here, and here, but NOT here...??
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Old July 16, 2021, 11:08 PM   #11
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I know..... I had a draft card during the Viet Nam conflict, but I was not allowed to buy a beer....
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Old July 17, 2021, 02:44 PM   #12
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I was a "naughty boy", I never registered for selective service. Never gave it a thought. I intentionally did not comply with the law requiring me to register with the draft board within 30 days of my 18th birthday.

Never heard a single word about it from anyone, never got in any kind of trouble.

Of course, the fact that I was enlisted at 17 and 16 days after my 18th birthday I was at Ft Leonard Wood beginning my Army Basic Training might have had something to do with that....
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Old July 18, 2021, 12:08 AM   #13
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Similarly I've been waiting for someone to comment on this since I was at Ft Huachuca for AIT when I turned 18. In 1974.
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Old July 18, 2021, 01:09 PM   #14
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...never registered for selective service. Never gave it a thought.
Ditto. Then Spring of `68 in my Firstie Year `got a notice to report to my Alabama Board.
Kinda told`em where I was and never heard from them again.
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Old July 18, 2021, 08:58 PM   #15
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Yep. I didnt “register”….i ENLISTED
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Old July 27, 2021, 12:47 AM   #16
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I know my opinions may mean very little but if we can enlist 18 year olds into military service, give them a weapon and have them kill for their country then they have earned the right to buy handguns at 18. If people don't like that they should consider changing the enlistment age to 21.
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Old July 27, 2021, 01:47 AM   #17
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Juts as an aside, I received my notice to sign up for Selective Service IN boot camp. My CC's, (Drill Instructors for non Navy), thought it hilarious, then I got to "push Illinois away" for it.
I hope this stands, make everything 18. of course, the Left ALSO thinks that 16 years olds are wise enough to vote and kids of any age are aware enough to change their sex through drugs and surgery, so the hypocrisy is wide, deep, and apparent to all.
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Old July 27, 2021, 02:34 AM   #18
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if we can enlist 18 year olds into military service,
we can't draft anyone under 18 but we have, in the past allowed the enlistment of 17yr olds, with their parents permission, and I think the law still allows for that.

Technically I enlisted at 17 but didn't go on active duty until after my 18th birthday (I wanted one last summer "free" )

17yr olds enlisted and went to combat during WWII. If I remember right, there was even one case of a 14 yr old who "snuck in" by lying about his age and served in the navy (and I think saw combat) and wasn't discovered for something like 3 years but when caught, they booted him out.

The way we treat children and the age of majority/age of consent/ legal adulthood is ironically at odds with the concept of innocent until proven guilty.

One memory I will always cherish, the look of comprehension that my daughter got on her face when she turned 18 and teasingly said to me, "I'm 18 now, that means you can't beat me!"

To which, I replied, "No, it doesn't, it just means it won't be child abuse!"

she paused for a moment, then ,
Her own daughter is 17 now, and she gets it!
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