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Old June 27, 2021, 02:43 PM   #26
DaleA
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I use the fact that the .223 round, or 5.56 round is NOT allowed for deer hunting when some anti-firearm zealot tries to horrify folk with the deadly affects of "assault weapons" bullets! "They liquify organs! They tear through flesh! They utterly Cuisinart small children!" (Okay, I made the last one up.)

But here's just one example of the kind of stuff that's been put out there about the .223/5.56 round.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ar...le-size-wound/
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Old June 27, 2021, 03:42 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleA
I use the fact that the .223 round, or 5.56 round is NOT allowed for deer hunting when some anti-firearm zealot tries to horrify folk with the deadly affects of "assault weapons" bullets! "They liquify organs! They tear through flesh! They utterly Cuisinart small children!" (Okay, I made the last one up.)
That's exactly why I wanted to get a handle on the information -- to refute the argument that the AR-15 is so deadly and so powerful that it shouldn't be allowed in civilian hands.

Never mind that the Ruger Mini-14 and the Zastava Mini Mauser fire the exact same cartridge. Apparently firing the cartridge from a scary-looking black rifle with a pistol grip makes the bullets travel faster and hit with more power.
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Old June 27, 2021, 04:11 PM   #28
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One of the more famous attempts to demonize the AR-15 was this doctor's article in the Atlantic.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...n-guns/553937/

Here are some of her quotes from the article:

Quote:
They weren’t the first mass-shooting victims the Florida radiologist saw—but their wounds were radically different.
Quote:
One of the trauma surgeons opened a young victim in the operating room, and found only shreds of the organ that had been hit by a bullet from an AR-15, a semiautomatic rifle that delivers a devastatingly lethal, high-velocity bullet to the victim.
Quote:
With an AR-15, the shooter does not have to be particularly accurate.
Quote:
It’s clear to me that AR-15 and other high-velocity weapons, especially when outfitted with a high-capacity magazine, have no place in a civilian’s gun cabinet.
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Old June 27, 2021, 04:36 PM   #29
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Great White Eagle, while I respect your opinions, your spreadsheet shown is missing Texas, Tennessee, Texas, South Dakota, Utah, Vermont, Washington, and Wyoming. The only conclusions that I would draw are that the data is incomplete, and the regulations have nothing to do with animal cruelty or wildlife management practices. Allowing deer hunting with a .22 short as is the apparent code in Mississippi and no respecting hunter would harvest deer that way. The only apparent conclusion I can see is that there is no consistency, no science, and a need for review in each state if any ethical and responsible hunting regulations are to be required in each state.
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Old June 27, 2021, 04:37 PM   #30
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I wonder some, what they would say if they opened someone that had been shot with a ,30 soft point (308 or 30-06) or a 7mm mag.
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Old June 27, 2021, 04:51 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Thomas Clarke View Post
Great White Eagle, while I respect your opinions, your spreadsheet shown is missing Texas, Tennessee, Texas, South Dakota, Utah, Vermont, Washington, and Wyoming. The only conclusions that I would draw are that the data is incomplete, and the regulations have nothing to do with animal cruelty or wildlife management practices. Allowing deer hunting with a .22 short as is the apparent code in Mississippi and no respecting hunter would harvest deer that way. The only apparent conclusion I can see is that there is no consistency, no science, and a need for review in each state if any ethical and responsible hunting regulations are to be required in each state.
Wasn't it Obama that said there were only forty-one states?
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Old June 27, 2021, 08:51 PM   #32
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The only conclusions that I would draw are that the data is incomplete, and the regulations have nothing to do with animal cruelty or wildlife management practices
Actually, a lot of the regs defining what is and isn't legal to use are based on animal cruelty concerns, game management practices and general hunter and public safety concerns.

Sometimes the reasons actually make sense, sometimes they don't but generally they are not well communicated to the public so we have a lot of regs that appear not to make sense, just because the reasoning behind them isn't or hasn't been well explained.

Also keep in mind that the regs are not about what can work, or what you or I the ethical guy would do, but are based on what they see and feel the majority of people hunting would do, absent specific regulations.

And that the regs to change some, with time, in some places. I have no data to back it up, but I'm sure that if you looked at the regs 40 years ago, you find just about the opposite with the .223 and deer. I think you'd find the majority of states prohibiting it and only a few allowing it.

40 years ago when I moved to WA their regs about pistols and deer were very specific. There were a few cartridges named as allowed, provided they were in guns with 6" or longer barrels and had expanding type bullets. There was also a minimum ft/lbs energy @ 100yds required. ,357 Mag just barely made it with some loads. 9mmLuger and .45acp were specifically excluded by name.

At the time, I had a nice, old model Ruger Blackhawk in .41 Mag. Met all the requirements, but one. Mine had a 4 5/8" barrel, not a 6", so wasn't legal for deer. I wound up trading it for a .30=30 Marlin... which was legal for deer.

The idea given back then was, the regs were tight to prevent people from going after deer undergunned....
After a couple decades of actually looking at what people were doing and using, they realized that the majority of people were, if anything over gunned for deer hunting, due to the regs and their own choices.

So, after a while more, they changed the regs, dropping the energy requirement, and changing the min barrel length down to 4". And setting the bullet size and weight the same as for rifles, .240" or larger and 85gr or heavier.

Today, my old .41 Blackhawk would be perfectly legal for deer hunting. Pity its long gone...
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Old June 27, 2021, 11:10 PM   #33
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Don't forget the truly anemic .22 Velo-dog pistol cartridge. Yes, centerfire but lower power than .22 LR.
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Old June 28, 2021, 12:49 AM   #34
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Don't forget the truly anemic .22 Velo-dog pistol cartridge. Yes, centerfire but lower power than .22 LR.
Take a look at that table I posted. My screen shot didn't capture all 50 states, but it got most of them. Five are either "Unrestricted" or allow rimfire, .22 caliber or greater.

.22 Short is .22 caliber ...
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Old June 28, 2021, 12:56 AM   #35
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According to the last accurate information that I saw 223 was not legal for hunting in only 4 states where any other centerfire cartridge was allowed. I can't recall exactly which but most were western states with bigger game such as elk.

When I 1st started paying attention to such things there were 10-12 states that didn't allow 22 centerfire cartridges, but as the round became more popular and hunters proved it effective many have changed their laws in recent years.

There are 6-7 other states that are either shotgun or muzzle loader only. Since that time several of those states have allowed certain centerfire cartridges. Usually pistol caliber cartridges or straight walled cartridge only. So basically around 10-11 states don't allow 223.

Most of those laws were on the books long before the 223 existed and were meant to limit rounds such as the 22 Hornet. But in most places where it is not legal most other center fire cartridges aren't legal either. And the rational is to limit the effective range of projectiles fired in heavily populated areas.
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Old June 28, 2021, 01:46 AM   #36
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And the rational is to limit the effective range of projectiles fired in heavily populated areas.
This is the oft stated reason, and does make sense. And was the reason I was told growing up why the Southern Zone (NY state) was shotgun only.

20ga, 16, or 12ga were allowed for whitetail and black bear. buckshot or slugs.
But, by the early 70s they banned buckshot for deer. BUT allowed it for black bear. THAT didn't make sense to me.

I have no idea what's allowed in NY today, I expect things have gotten more complicated in the 40 years since I left.
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Old June 28, 2021, 09:49 AM   #37
ballardw
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Originally Posted by DaleA View Post
I use the fact that the .223 round, or 5.56 round is NOT allowed for deer hunting when some anti-firearm zealot tries to horrify folk with the deadly affects of "assault weapons" bullets! "They liquify organs! They tear through flesh! They utterly Cuisinart small children!" (Okay, I made the last one up.)

But here's just one example of the kind of stuff that's been put out there about the .223/5.56 round.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ar...le-size-wound/
I'd say the "picture" of the hypothetical AR-15 "wound" is about right for the round hand-guard.
I notice claim image does not state it was made by a bullet. Snopes missed that bit I think.
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Old June 28, 2021, 10:40 AM   #38
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The NSSF spreadsheet is wrong for Indiana and Michigan.


Michigan does allow .22 centerfire but does not allow .22 rimfire. The confusion is that they'll allow you to have .22 rimfire in the field during deer season if you're hunting small game.


Indiana is not unrestricted and .223/5.56 would not fit any legal category:
Rifles
Rifles chambered for cartridges that fire a bullet of .357-inch diameter or larger, have a minimum case length of 1.16 inches, and have a maximum case length of 1.8 inches are legal to use only during the deer firearms, youth, reduction zones from Nov. 14-Jan. 31 (in zones where local ordinances allow the use of a firearm), and special antlerless seasons. These rifle cartridges can be used on public and private land.

Some cartridges legal for deer hunting include the .357 Magnum, .350 Legend, .358 Hoosier, .38-.40 Winchester, .41 Magnum, .41 Special, .44 Magnum, .44 Special, .44-.40 Winchester, .45 Colt, .454 Casull, .458 SOCOM, .475 Linebaugh, .480 Ruger, .50 Action Express, .500 S&W, .460 Smith & Wesson, .450 Bushmaster, and .50 Beowulf. Full metal jacketed bullets are illegal.

Additional rifles can be used for deer hunting on private land only. During the firearms, reduction zone from Nov. 14, 2020 - Jan. 31, 2021 (in zones where local ordinances allow the use of firearms), youth season, and special antlerless season (where open), rifles that fire cartridges meeting the following requirements may be used to hunt deer on private land only.

The cartridge must have a minimum case length of 1.16 inches and a maximum case length of 3 inches.

The cartridge must fire a bullet with a minimum diameter of .243 inches (same as 6 mm).

A hunter must not possess more than 10 of these cartridges while hunting deer.

Full metal jacketed bullets are illegal.
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Old June 28, 2021, 04:34 PM   #39
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I find it difficult to believe that no one has ever compiled a list like this. It must have come up as a topic somewhere before.
I did back in 2014. I got tired of the oft-repeated claim that .223 isn't allowed for deer in "most states."

Here is my statement from 2017 on another forum on the matter...
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...#post-10677743

Quote:
I believe you have that backwards. In most states, it is legal to hunt deer with .223/5.56. I believe only Colorado, Connecticut, Illinois, Iowa, Massachusetts, Virginia, Ohio, New Jersey, Washington, and West Virginia are the only states requiring a larger cartridge. The list is 3 years old, but I don't think 15 or 16 states have changed their laws in that time to disallow .223/5.56
Of course, Illinois doesn't allow rifle hunting at all, so my list was incomplete.
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Old June 28, 2021, 05:47 PM   #40
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Maine definitely allows it--even allows 22 rimfire. I've never heard of a hunter actually taking one with a .224 except for professional cull hunters. our deer are generally pretty big--sometimes really big.
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Old June 28, 2021, 09:15 PM   #41
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Most folks in Colorado wouldn't dream of hunting deer with a 223, many are shot at 250yds or farther where the 223 is below 1000lb lbs of energy.
I'm putting together a 6mm arc to hunt coyotes and doe deer/antelope, it's an AR-15, it has plenty of energy out to 300yds for smallish big game 125lbs or less.
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Old June 29, 2021, 07:16 AM   #42
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I'm thinking that a lot of regs are "rule of thumb" efforts to make life easy for field agents. For example, the Colorado regulation forbidding big game hunting with a cartridge under 24 caliber is probably so the CPW agent can easily make a call in the field.
Probably when the dept. set that law the 222/223 was already available, but they said "Yeah, that could work, but then there's overlap with a lot of other .22s, so... 24 we go!"
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Old June 29, 2021, 07:29 AM   #43
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There's a huge variation of the size of deer throughout the US, because of the climate the farther north you are the bigger the deer are, I travel to Texas and Tennessee occasionally, the deer look like the size of great danes to me.
You don't shoot deer this size with varmint rifles, it's not ethical and a 22caliber bullet would blow up if you hit him on the point of the shoulder never making it into the vitals.
In my backyard a couple of years ago, yes that buck has an extra antler growing out the side of his head.
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