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Old May 1, 2020, 04:56 AM   #26
COSteve
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Originally Posted by ratshooter View Post
With the 4" barrel it won't reach the power levels COSteve is getting but with good handloads I don't see why a jump in power isn't possible. Enough of a boost to make it worth his time to do so since he already reloads.
That's true. My neighbor bought a G20 after shooting my G20L about 12 years ago. We've chrono'd my loads in both pistols at the same time and the extra 1.6" of barrel gives me hundreds of fps increased velocities.
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Old May 1, 2020, 08:35 AM   #27
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People want the recoil of a 22 LR with results of a .357 magnum. Won't get it.

A lot of Police changed back to 9mm because the FBI did. The same reason they went with the .40 S&W to start with.

That is problem one. Nobody should make these choices based strictly on what some government agency does. And a good part of the reason the FBI changed back was because they hire folks of smaller stature and people that often would not know a RSA from a shock absorber.

The .40 is a good round that has "worked" on the streets. It will be around and morph into something better as years go by.

I have chosen to shoot the round that is best for my situation - not that of government employees in D.C. God Bless Them.
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Old May 1, 2020, 10:01 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Forte S+W View Post
No doubt about that. I already knew that handloads were generally required to get the most out of 10mm without spending a fortune on boutique ammo, but I had no idea that it could reach that kind of power.
That doesn't stop with the 10mm. I handload for 7 pistol and 9 rifle calibers and to get decent performance out of my leverguns in both .357mag and 45 Colt, I must handload. To get decent plinking 30-30 ammo, I must handload. To get precision 5.56 ammo for my 400yd 'Appleshooter" I must handload. To get decent longer range .308 and 30-06 ammo I must handload. Etd., etc., etc. See a pattern here?

Commercial ammo is built in bulk and is worked up to work decently in the widest range of arms. It's also made to make money for the producers. To get quality ammo tuned to your platform and to save between ½ to ⅔ the price (unless you're talking low volume, high precision and then you could be talking saving ¾ or more!) you must handload your own.

Eighteen years ago I started with a Dillon 550B, after 4 years I sold my 550 and moved up to an XL 650 with a casefeeder. A couple months ago on a whim, I bought an XL 750, used most of my stuff from my 650 including the casefeeder, strongmount, toolheads, quick change kits, and caliber conversions, and sold my 650.

Two days ago I produced 2 different loads of 45 Colt for my leverguns, 1 a longer range, 255grn full charge and 1 a plinking 200grn approach. I made a total of 730rds and it took me about 2 hrs to produce them at a savings of $318.

Then the next day I changed calibers and produced 2 different loads of .357mag for my leverguns, 1 a longer range, 158grn full magnum charge and 1 a plinking 125grn approach. I made a total of 520rds and it took me about 1½ hrs to produce them at a savings of $234.

I produced a total of 750rds of quality tuned ammo for my use. I saved a total of $552 over the cost of cheap, bulk ammo, not the custom tuned, higher priced stuff, the bulk cheap stuff. That's why I handload.
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Old May 1, 2020, 10:41 AM   #29
lee n. field
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestTex View Post
People want the recoil of a 22 LR with results of a .357 magnum. Won't get it.

A lot of Police changed back to 9mm because the FBI did. The same reason they went with the .40 S&W to start with.

That is problem one. Nobody should make these choices based strictly on what some government agency does.
Because they have reasons and constraints that don't necessarily apply to what Joe Citizen does. Different role and different rules.
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Old May 2, 2020, 09:16 AM   #30
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I have full-sized duty pistols in 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45acp. Some of them are identical or nearly identical except for caliber. For instance, I have a 1911 in each caliber.

In similar full-sized pistols, the three cartridges all feel about the same to me.
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Old May 2, 2020, 01:18 PM   #31
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I have Glock 22, 23, 35 and like them all.
I feel that 40 has slightly better ASAP incapacitation potential than 9mm - same shot placement.
Note use of emotion, "feel" to support my position; using emotion as a justification, nice.
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Old May 2, 2020, 06:16 PM   #32
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is the death of the .40 maybe a bit exaggerated?
On paper the 40 packs more energy. IRL, its guns generally hold one or two rounds less than 9. However, there are a few make/models chambered in 40 that are super versatile. The Glock 22, for example, with 2 conversion barrels can be chambered in 357 Sig and 9mm. With the numbers of 40's out there, I doubt it's going anywhere anytime soon.
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Old May 2, 2020, 08:35 PM   #33
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I load for 6 or 7 different Handgun rounds and to tell the truth I have had excellent luck finding great loads for the .40. Being retired I get to shoot more then a lot of people (3 to 4 days per WK) and find that with regular practice almost all HG rounds can be mastered so I kinda struggle with the notion that L.E people can't master the .40 S&W and the cost of raw materials can't be that great to jump ship and go 9mm. I love the 9mm and burn around 400 rounds per week but the 9 don't bang the gong like a .40, .45 or .357.
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Old May 3, 2020, 06:58 PM   #34
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I had a 10mm for awhile, but never shot it that much, so I ended up selling it.

I never had any interest in the .40 at all until I walked into my gunshop a few years ago and saw a very gently used S&W 411 on the shelf for $300.

I hemmed, hawed, and finally walked out the door with it.

I have to admit, I like the combination. It's currently my nightstand gun.
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Old May 3, 2020, 08:05 PM   #35
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Mike , With a set of Night Sights? that would be a nice set up!
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Old May 3, 2020, 08:57 PM   #36
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Nope, no night sights. Standard sights.
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Old May 3, 2020, 11:19 PM   #37
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I have had a Glock 17L & a Glock 24 for several years now. And I try to shoot both them at least once weekly. I have a Dillon SD B sit up for 9mm, 40 S&W, 38/357, & 45LC. But I reload and shoot more 9mm & 40 S&W than the other three, most of the time. I really Like my 17L & 24 more every time I shoot them. But if I had to choose between them, the 24 would get the nod. But both of them are two of my chosen house guns. Both have Crimson Trace Laser Grip Sights & Night Lights, and Extended Magazines I prefer them set up this way. But again the Glock 24 is in my hand more if there is a bump in the night, that I feel I have to check out.
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Old May 5, 2020, 07:38 AM   #38
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For example, my 165grn 'nuclear' loads are pushing 1,589fps from my 6" G20L
Any estimate of the pressures involved in getting that kind of velocity? Say from Quickload? Given the powder and charge weight, I can do a quick check if you're interested. Rod
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Old May 5, 2020, 09:21 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by rodfac View Post
Any estimate of the pressures involved in getting that kind of velocity? Say from Quickload? Given the powder and charge weight, I can do a quick check if you're interested. Rod
You'll get very poor results from Quickload because it was developed as a program for necked rifle calibers and doesn't do a good job of predicting in a straight walled case. The developer has stated this over and over when he gets questions about widely varying predictions. Checking growth in the base of the brass and the condition of the primer, as well as the fact that I'm shooting it in a tighter, target chambered barrel, says I'm ok.

In addition, I've shot over 9,000 rds of hot loads through my G20L in the 16 years since I developed it, hundreds of them my 'nuclear' level loads, without a single issue. (Why have a 10mm along with a 40s&w if you aren't going to shoot hot loads in it?) Yes, I watch my brass and don't load a 'nuclear' load a second time in a piece used for that but I'm confident that it works well.

Finally, I live and shoot in Colorado and my chrono'd results were at 6,100ft asl on an 84° day. I've re-chrono'd those loads over the years and gotten consistent velocities as well as re-chrono'd them in my neighbor's stock G20 and the results there are consistent too. His stock Glock consistently produces hundreds of ft per sec. slower readings.
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Old May 5, 2020, 01:38 PM   #40
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Uh, you don't have to keep putting nuclear into quotations like that. I wasn't trying to be rude, I'd simply never heard of 10mm getting 900ft-lbs of energy before because I'm used to the watered down FBI Loads, mediocre hunting loads, and boutique loads which only get about 700ft-lbs on paper because they're chronographed from shorter test barrels.

I had hastily assumed that you were loading your ammo insanely hot to get that kind of muzzle energy, but now I know it had more to do with you shooting it out of a pistol with a longer barrel.
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Old May 5, 2020, 02:00 PM   #41
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No offense taken as I've always used the term 'nuclear' when referring to my heavy loaded 165grn 10mm. I just started using it when I first chrono'd the batch as I couldn't believe the velocities I was getting with it. I remember running 3 different 10rd strings to make sure that I was getting accurate readings including one string on our club's Ohler 35 with triple screens. All the data matched and so I had to believe it.

The velocity difference between my 6" KKM Precision barreled G20L and a stock 4.6" barreled G20 with it's polygonal rifling is documented but I can't say for sure if the rifling and/or chamber differences are contributing or is it wholly the result of the 1.4" longer barrel. Whatever the contributors, the velocity difference, coupled with the 28% longer sight radius and the better muzzle weight makes for a sweet woods piece and why I'd recommend a G40 over the G20 to anyone.

Yes, I'm partial to longer barrels as well as iron sights for simplicity and accuracy as my G20L hangs on target very well. I'm also partial to the fact that it fits tight to my body, doesn't weigh a ton for it's power, and has 18 total rds available for whatever I may come up against.
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Old May 5, 2020, 06:25 PM   #42
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Alright then, it's just you didn't start using that term in this thread until after I used it and were putting it between quotation marks, so I thought you were sarcastically quoting me each time.
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Old May 6, 2020, 03:20 AM   #43
COSteve
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That's because I wasn't talking about my specific load data. It's no big thing either as I've used 'nuclear' to describe my hottest 165grn load for my G20L for 16 years. My hottest 180grn at the upper 1,400fps range and 200grn loads at the upper 1,300fps range produce ME in the upper 800ft/lbs but I use the 165grn number because it's really fast at 1,589fps and powerful at 925ft/lbs ME.

Again, my point in using those numbers is to point out that using the proper powder is good but giving it a barrel length it can fully produce in is very, very good. And FWIW, my loads have been measured in a 16" carbine and they don't produce that much additional gain in velocity; at only about 200fps.

I use that as an argument that the small cased, high pressure pistol calibers with fast burning powder designed to provide maximum performance in short pistol barrels such as 9mm, 40s&w, 10mm, and 45 Super don't benefit from longer barreled platforms, such as leverguns as much as the older, larger cased magnum pistol calibers that use larger charges of slower burning powder such as .357mag, 41mag, 44mag, 45 Colt (Ruger) do.

I have both .357mag and 45 Colt leverguns and the velocity gains out of longer barrels, even barrels as long as 24", are impressive. How does a 158grn .357mag using 18.0grns Lil'Gun (listed max load) producing 1,952fps out of a 20" Rossi carbine an a whopping 2,005fps out of a 24" Rossi rifle sound?
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Last edited by COSteve; May 6, 2020 at 08:40 AM.
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Old May 28, 2020, 04:06 AM   #44
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I have a relative who is an FBI field agent in Afghanistan.
She explained to me that she was told the FBI went back to the 9mm purely because of magazine capacity.
The FBI realized that the .40 and the 9mm were both capable of getting the job done, but more bullets in the magazine is better than less bullets.

Personally, for self defence, I think the 9mm Luger is just fine.
If I do my job, the bullets will do their job.
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Old May 28, 2020, 11:02 AM   #45
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I live behind enemy line in CA, where magazines are no more than 10 rounds. I go for the biggest caliber that I can handle. 40 s&w it is. A Glock 23 can do 40, 357 sig and 9 with simple swap of barrels and mags.

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Old May 28, 2020, 04:23 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Forte S+W View Post
It seems as though all of the Police trade-ins flooding the market at insanely low prices had the following effects.
  • Folks bought cheap .40s.
  • Took cheap .40s to the range and enjoyed shooting them.
  • Bought more ammo to shoot more.
  • COVID-19 happened and folks started panic-buying guns and ammo, especially cheap guns like .40cal Police trade-ins, exhausting the supply.

Now there are a lot more people who own a .40 than ever before, most of whom will wish to continue shooting them once they can get out to the range, demand for ammo will ensure that it stays in production, and it's very likely that word of mouth will spread that .40 S&W is not in fact; "Too sthnappy" when fired from full-size duty pistols, especially all-metal ones, and offers better ballistic performance than 9mm.

Reports of its death were already greatly exaggerated and based on the demonstrably false logic that all cartridges which fall out of favor with Law Enforcement will die because apparently every shooter is a sheep who follows the lead of LE, and therefore just sells their guns the moment LE adopts something new. You know, like how .45 Long Colt, .45 ACP, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, 9mm Luger, and 10mm Auto all died when police stopped carrying them at different times.
The new folks who bought up the cheap, surplus .40’s will only enjoy them for a short while. They’ll eventually find their way to a message forum or YouTube and find out they purchased a dead caliber. And they’ll learn that it has too much recoil to shoot effectively. And that 9mm is just as effective and has less recoil.

And even though they really enjoyed shooting their .40’s, they’ll learn the error of their ways and trade them in for 9mm pistols.

And then, there will be even more second hand, used .40’s on the market at even cheaper prices for those of us who still enjoy shooting them.

Last edited by nanney1; May 28, 2020 at 05:08 PM.
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Old May 28, 2020, 04:50 PM   #47
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Folks have been regurgitating that nonsense online for at least the past five years, so if it hasn't convinced folks by now, it never will.

Besides, folks can say all they want that .40 S&W is difficult to shoot, and for them maybe it is, but not for everyone, especially not in the heavy, all-metal police trade-in service pistols like the SIG P226, S&W 4006, Beretta 96, etc.
Obviously those who have already shot one know better too.

Will some people succumb to insecurity, doubt, or peer pressure? Will others discover that the recoil is indeed too much for them? Sure, but all the better for those who enjoy shooting .40 S&W, aren't recoil sensitive, or simply seek a more powerful cartridge without having to go up a frame size.
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Old June 1, 2020, 07:40 PM   #48
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Amen
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Old June 2, 2020, 08:24 AM   #49
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Our private range provides free access to all Law Enforcement as well as the Boy Scouts and other organizations as part of a commitment to public service. I talk to the LEO training officers all the time and over the years we've talked about why a certain department will carry a particular brand of pistol and caliber.

Every time it comes up, the LEOs always say that the number one reason that their department chose a specific pistol and caliber was cost. Not performance but cost. Every time. 9mm ammo is cheaper than 40s&w or 45acp and that's the main reason that they are equipped with 9mm pistols. That's their statement, not mine. Many training officers have told me that they believe their department made a mistake picking the 9mm.

As to why departments choose the 9mm, many of the LEOs who come for training are absolutely clueless about their duty piece. It's scary how so many of them have so little experience with their duty piece. For example, a friend with a gun shop makes his living cleaning the pistols and rifles of the LEOs who barely know how to use them and couldn't field strip their weapon if their life depended on it.

Also, some officers come to our range with their own private weapons to practice with. I've never seen an officer with a personal 9mm piece. Many have 40s&w but most seem to like a full size 1911 in 45acp or a wheel gun in .357 or 44 mag.
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