Shooting the mighty .44mag - accuracy at a distance?

[jwise]

I took my S&W 29 4" and S&W 586 6" to the range today. I don't usually shoot them at distance, and rarely with full power magnum loads. I wanted to be sure they were sighted in with full power loads as far as I could.

The indoor range I was at only goes to 15yds, so that was my distance. I loaded the 29 with 240gr magnum rounds and the 586 with 158gr magnum rounds.

I forgot my shooting gloves, so I wore my leather work gloves. They seemed to work fine for the job.

I launched 25 rounds through the 29, and I only stopped due to the cost of shooting it! I had it dialed in perfectly at the max distance of the range. I can't wait to get it out a bit farther.

I switched to my 586 and it was already dialed in perfectly, blowing the centers out of the targets. I then switched to some .38spl loads I brought and played around with what amounted to squib loads compared to the big magnums!

I want to see about making the front sights more conducive to shooting longer range. I was thinking about adding a fine vertical line to the front site post. What other options are out there?

[RIDE-RED 350r]

Glad you had fun with your S&W's, that's always a good day.

I too have a 4" 29-2 and with my handloaded 200gr XTP's sitting atop a full charge of AA#9 it is capable of making a 2" ragged hole at 50 feet. I also have a 6.5" 629 Classic which has the quick change front sight. I swapped a red fiber optic front sight in and am able to print paper plate sized groups at 50 yards shooting from typical shooting positions from my turkey chair that I use for hunting utilizing a two handed grip. The 629 will also print very well at 50 feet making similar ragged holes as the 29-2.

As to modification to your front sights... I know that Meprolight makes 3-dot night sights for S&W wheelguns. I had a set installed on my 460V thinking it would give me a better sight picture and I believe they did. I did need to have my gunsmith do the work though as the factory red front sight insert had to be pressed out and the new glow in the dark dot insert pressed in. Also, removing the rear sight blade to replace it with the new 2-dot night sight fixture required screwing the factory sight blade out which breaks the windage adjustment screw and from what my gunsmith said it cannot be avoided. I am inclined to believe him as the Meprolight kit came with a new windage screw and special nut.

Other than that, I'm not sure what else is out there to upgrade the S&W factory front sight. I hate to say "buy another gun" but the 629 Classic's front sight being a quick change does open up more options. I am not referring to the "Classics" line which includes the new M29, m57, and so on. But the 629 Classic that features a full underlug and quick change front sight. The quick change sight can be swapped literally in seconds, no tools required.

[jwise]

I was thinking something similar to this:

https://www.1911addicts.com/threads/...version.29443/

[BubbaBlades]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h3fG_LCqhE&t=28s

The Model 29 that I am using in the above YouTube video has a red insert in the front sight.

The accuracy at 60+ feet is OK considering my gun is unmodified and I am using non-match ammo and shooting one-handed.

[Bob Wright]

I fail to see how a vertical line would assist shooting longer ranges. Elmer Keith use horizontal bars added to the front blade to add additional reference points for elevation necessary for long range shooting.

I did have a Millett rear sight added on a couple of my Rugers for more precise adjustments. And I did remove the red insert on my Model 29s for a more precise sight picture. This worked for me out to about 200 meters with my .44 Magnums.

This .45 Colt Blackhawk sports a Millett rear sight:



As does this Super Blackhawk:



Here my Model 29 with the red ramp removed:



Bob Wright


P.S. You stated you were using gloves. Be aware, especially shooting at long range, your impact will vary from shooting bare handed then switching to gloves, and vice versa. Gloves will vary the amount you gun will slip under recoil.

[jwise]

A vertical line will help me be precise with the target picture, as is true with fine front sight blades. It's not all just about elevation.

[44 AMP]

I could regularly ring the 200yd gong on the rifle range with .44 Magnums, or my .45 Colt, and yes " my gun is unmodified and I am using non-match ammo and shooting one-handed. "

Standard black sights, too!

Accuracy at ranges measured in feet doesn't impress me much.

I will admit to having thought, "if I can do it, why can't you?" for a long time, but its clear some can't do it.

Doing something special to the sights may make it a bit easier to hit at long range, but in the end, its not the sights that make the shot, its the shooter.

[mete]

The original red insert and the newer fiber optic sight have a major problem, the sights really GLOW in the sun ! We found a significant difference between in the sun vs in the shade. Mine is now plain black.
All the sight types were investigated years ago not much new . I have a sight with a vertical gold line which helps a bit in dark conditions .
My suggestion is to shoot metallic silhouette where the 200yd range practice makes hitting that deer 50 or 100 yds easy !!

[JJ45]

Elmer Keith supposedly landed the finisher on a wounded mule buck at 600 yards.

When I first heard of this years ago, I didn't believe it....but in all fairness, Elmer probably shot more ammo out of different handguns than anybody.

[jwise]

I'm not arguing with anyone. I understand it can be done. I also understand it is easier to be precise when using precise instruments.

I hit a coyote at 130yds with my Colt M1917 just a few weeks ago. It has thin blade front sight.

[black mamba]

Bi-focals are the bane of handgun shooting. When I was younger I could put all 6 from a Smith Model 57 four inch into a 6" bull at 50 yds offhand and double-action in less than four seconds. Now I can do the same, but at only 25 yds and firing single-action. A red dot sight helps, but with the bi-focals I still have to move my head up and down to get a sharp dot instead of a blurry triangle. Oh, for young eyes again!

[Old Stony]

I'd like to see that on video...sounds like some type of extreme shooting skills!

[NoSecondBest]

To the OP: What is your definition of long range? From re-reading your post I get the idea most of your shooting is very close (45 ft is basically point blank), and you don't have an understanding of what your current sights are capable of. 44AMP gave you the best answer so far. I've shot and killed a lot of deer with a handgun over the last 40+ years out to well over a hundred yards with both a 629 and a 686 using the supplied factory sights with no modifications at all. Forget about playing with your sights and learn to use the ones that came on the gun. Also, learn the trajectory (bullet drop) of the calibers and loads you're using now. Most of the "magic" in handgun shooting is learning how to shoot, not tinkering your way to success. Invest in more ammo, start reloading if you don't now, and do more shooting. Good luck, it'll happen if you work at it.

[jwise]

I am planning to start taking my revolvers with me to the 100yd outdoor range. I guess I'll see what I can do with them before making any changes.

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by jwise

The indoor range I was at only goes to 15yds, so that was my distance.


I launched 25 rounds through the 29, and I only stopped due to the cost of shooting it! I had it dialed in perfectly at the max distance of the range. I can't wait to get it out a bit farther.



I want to see about making the front sights more conducive to shooting longer range. I was thinking about adding a fine vertical line to the front site post. What other options are out there?

You are like many other folks that have their handgun shooting distance limited by where they have to shoot. I've seen many outdoor handgun ranges where the distance was limited to 25 yards.....and most of the folks that shot there considered it, "long range".

If you are not going to shoot magnum rounds from your .44 or your .357 at distances of more than 50-70 yards, there's no legitimate reason to do anything to your front sight. I practice regularly at 70 yards with my 629s and 686s without any change in POA from my normal 40 yard gongs. Past that I jut raise the POA a tad. Not a biggie. If I was going to shoot silhouettes out to 200 yards, then I would consider doing something to my front sight or using some form of optics.

[bamaranger]

I suspect that what is allowing you to shoot handguns with thin front blades better (at least that seems implied to me) is that the thinner front blade allows more daylight on either side of the front sight, allowing a more precise sight picture. Consistent alignment with blade and leaf sights will reduce small variations in sight picture, theoretically reducing dispersion of shots (all else equal). That's a pretty common problem.....one offender is the Glock family.In addition to plastic sights that aren't especially durable, Glock sights are way to blocky. Young eyes may pick up that sliver of light on either side of a thick front blade, but mine do not anymore. I suppose it is possible to open up the rear sight on a M29, essentially having the same effect as a thinner blade, and one could search for a thinner blade up front as well. A longer barrel (not practical, agreed) will also work to reduce the appearance of the front sight as well.

Elmer Keiths horizontal long range bars ( and I mean LONG range)on his custom sights came to mind immediately. And for the record, at LONG range, it is very much about elevation, perching the front sight farther and farther up out of the rear notch to lob those big slugs on target.

I have some XS post front sights on rifles equipped with rear peeps. Those sights do indeed have vertical white stripes, and it allows me to find the front blade (on rifles w/ peeps) easier, especially in flat light. I can't say they are more accurate, but I see the front sight better, and thus shoot better (I think).

I suppose the ultimate long range handgun set up would be some type of optic. Either a conventional scope, or a dot. My Dad had a Ruger Super B, 10-1/4 bbl, with a 2-1/2x Leupold pistol scope. In those days, it was quite the spectacle, not common at all,at least in our neck of the woods. We would scavenge clay targets from the trap ranges adjacent, and put the clays out at 100 yds and beyond. Once one learned the drops, shooting off bags and a bench, it was pretty simple to bust clay pigeons with Dad's big .44 consistently at 100+.

[Jim Watson]

When I was shooting IHMSA Revolver in bamaranger's neighborhood a good many years ago, I improvised the Keith barred front sight.
After many trials, I was able to lay a narrow strip of masking tape across the red insert in my front ramp. I then applied sight black. Peeling the tape left me with about a 1 mm red bar across a black sight.
There was some combination of top of blade or red stripe; foot, belly, body, or backbone hold that put me on target for each of the critters. Very specialized but it worked... when I referred to my notes and applied the right hold for the range.

[sixgunluv]

I paint the front sight orange....then put a very small micro dot of white paint in the middle of that. I am confident taking whitetail deer out to 80 yards, off hand with one shot. Off a bench out to 100yds I can hit a full size coffee can 4 out of 6 times.

[rodfac]

Sixgun... that's a BARREL!! Lol, all kidding aside, Bamaranger has it about right. There are many elements involved in long range pistol shooting and while good sights on the gun are important, they are far from the most important. The following are the essentials needed for accuracy at any range.

Sight alignment: the ability to hold both windage (the thin white space on both sides of the front sight equally) and elevation: (the top of the front sight exactly level with the rear sight ears). A thin front sight, may help with windage allowing the 'thin white space' to be seen, but it also makes elevation more difficult to see.

Sight picture: the imposition of perfect sight alignment on the blurred target. Remember, it's impossible to focus on all three: the rear sight, the front sight, and the target. A hundred years of pistol competition with iron sights has proved conclusively that the FRONT sight most be in hard focus, allowing the target to blur, and the rear sight to slightly blur. Focusing in this manner is the only way to get that essential perfect sight alignment.

Of equal importance to real long range accuracy is uniformity of grip strength. Any change in that equates to wandering shots, or misplaced groups. With perfect sight alignment, and perfect sight picture, any grip change will still result in misplaced shots.

The last of the essential elements for good long range accuracy is trigger manipulation, I.E. pressing the trigger straight to the rear, with no side pressure in such a manner as to allow perfect sight alignment, perfect sight picture, and perfect grip consistency to do their work. For me, it's a continuous trigger pull; commiting to the trigger when the first three elements are as good as I'm going to get them. Then allowing the shot to break as the press is completed...a complete surprise. Any attempt to hurry the shot, when everything looks just "perfect" results in a miss....in other words, a 4 pound trigger pull quickly applied to a 2 pound gun is the textbook definition of a "jerked" trigger...a miss.

My comment "as good as I'm going to get them" in the above paragraph refers to wobble area, the natural figure 8 motion of the sights as affected by grip and support. Attempting to break the shot in the wobble area, when the sights are 'just right' usually results in a misalignment of one of the other elements...you have to accept your wobble area and let the shot break as a good trigger manipulation is applied. Done in this manner, the shot impact will fall somewhere in the mechanical limits of the gun's accuracy.

A 'skinny' front sight is not the answer to long range accuracy...adhering to the age old tenants of marksmanship is.

HTH's and I doubt if YMMV, Rod

[RIDE-RED 350r]

^^^Dang good post right there^^^

And notably I always need practice at all of those things.

[44 AMP]

I would make one comment about this..

elevation: (the top of the front sight exactly level with the rear sight ears).

Assuming "ears" means the rear sight blade, the front sight level with the top of the rear sight is not the sight picture I use for long range shooting.

Close range, yes, but not long range, where I hold the front sight up, above the rear sight, with my target on top of the front sight.

[rodfac]

My 6" Model 57, and zero'd for 75 yds, a front post level with the top of the rear sight (ears) does well out to just over 100...and that's my extreme limit on any game I'd be shooting with it. At a chrono'd 1250 fps, that puts the bullet 3" low at 100, 15" low at 150, and 35" low at 200.

My Smith M29 with a 5" bbl. has the same trajectory with a 210 gr JHP at 1340 fps, the best I've been able to come up with, handloading and chronoing my loads. It's 1" flatter shooting at 150 and 200 yds.

For rocks and such on distant hillsides, hold over is obviously necessary, and I use the same method you espouse, AMP. Fun to shoot at those distances at inanimate objects, and easy to see the bullet splash on wheat stubble fields where you can 'walk them' into the target, (an old emptied 20# propane tank).

Best Regards, Rod