The 44 Special and Manual data differences

longfellow · August 9, 2011, 08:05 AM

I have one new manual (Speer) and one old (Hornady) manual with drastically different max loads for the 44 Special. While I have one of the strongest Specials out there, I am still not comfortable with the differences in the max loads.
The newer manual hovers around 900 f/s with all powders and the typical 240 gr bullet (Let's stick with jacketed stuff just to standardize and get some useful input out of this thread). The older Hornady edition goes to 1,100 which is pretty stiff, and the necessary load of Unique is 9.3 grains. I have never seen any recommendation for this combination of bullet and powder, above 7.0 grains and my own chronograph confirms that my standard load of (I better not give exact data here) 6.0-7.0 grains Unique gives me about 900.
I've checked the obvious stuff like primer choice and barrel length but these are all about equal in the two manuals.
I can't believe that we are talking the same max pressure target in these two manuals and neither do I feel comfortable just grabbing a third manual just to break the tie. Also, neither manual lists "specific" firearms that these loads should "only" be fired in. I'd like some supportable evidence if anyone has any, on the real causes for these two manuals giving presumably safe maximum loads.
Thanks,
Ed

Jim Watson · August 9, 2011, 08:33 AM

Your new Speer manual has pressure tested data and the SAAMI maximum pressure for .44 Special is pretty low, in consideration of the old guns that might still be in use.
Your old Hornady manual likely shows what was acceptable in the then-new gun used for testfiring. Casehead expansion and subjective evaluation of primer appearance and ease of extraction, instead of a pressure test barrel, maybe.

Such individual experimenters as Skeeter Skelton and Ken Waters considered 7.5 grains of Unique to be a reasonable maximum with 240 grain .44 Special.

The Hornady load of 9.3 grains of Unique sounds like a lot to me.

mehavey · August 9, 2011, 10:16 AM

That (9.3gr Unique) load under a 240gr Jacketed approaches 27,000psi against the old 15,500psi 44 Special standard. On the other hand, it's well under the 44Mag standard of 36,000.

If you're shooting 44 Special in a 44Mag frame that's one thing, but 7.5gr Unique looks like absolute max against the true 44 Special standard.

Edward429451 · August 9, 2011, 11:13 AM

I don't understand your problem. You start low and work up for your gun. Use the starting loads. Understand that the reloading data is not absolute, it is a guide.

If you are using a 44 Special gun, and you work up the load, you will not get to the max load that you question before pressure signs will come. If you are using 44 Special brass in a 44 Mag gun and question the safety of going further, then switch to 44 Mag brass.

I have a CA Bulldog and Ruger Redhawk that I load for. I have never loaded the Bulldog to approaching magnum loads. I have loaded the Mag down so far that it was like shooting a 22. I had to keep checking for squibs but there were none.

mikld · August 9, 2011, 12:21 PM

In addition to Mr. Watson's post, not all testing methods/equipment are the same. Different bbl lengths, different bullets (all same weight), some may use a universal receiver while some may use an actual firearm. Results will vary. Another thought going around these days are the "lawyer loads"; The manual printers/writers deliberately down loads the info for liability purposes. Start low and work up, or if you want "hot" .44 Special ammo, go with A .44 Maagnum, or stick with factory ammo...

GeauxTide · August 9, 2011, 12:24 PM

I've run 17.0 grains of 2400 under a 240gr RemSP, perfectly. No pressure signs at all. The old 7.5 Unique load is proven.

longfellow · August 9, 2011, 12:32 PM

Edward,
I am a bid leary of relying on pressure signs. Take the 44 Special and its 15,500 psi max;
Does a flattened primer indicate 16,000 or 20,000 psi? Given that this same primer is going in the 44 mag, is it not reasonable to expect that the flattened primer pressure isn't somewhere in the 30,000-40,000 psi range? How can the primer condition then be reliable?
Case head? Well wouldn't the internal diameter of my chambers play a role here? and how about the inevitable .0005" or so difference BETWEEN chamber diameters? I've measured mine and there is at least this much variation, and given that excessive pressure is indicated, according to some sources, by only a thou or so over, isn't this half-a-though variation going to cloud the data?
I guess I am just comming at it from the opposite perspective; I don't have anything close to a controlled environment to effectively use the commonly cited signs of excessive pressure and I feel more comfortable using the reloading guide as truth (as long as componnents match those used in creating the reloading table data) - just the opposite from your recommendation.

I like the poster who suspects that we went from using these very subjective pressure signs years ago, to using better measuring equipment today and that I should go with the newer data. It is likely over-conservative, but lacking any specific data that was developed for MY revolver, together with a max pressure recommendation again, for my specific revolver (a value that I would only trust if comming from its manufacturer), I would be safer to just stick with the tables.
Now, if VELOCITY can be an accurate representation of pressure and since I use a chronograph........
Never mind. I better not go there either.
Thanks all,
Ed

GeauxTide · August 9, 2011, 07:27 PM

Let's see, ask a question, get a good answer from Ed. Then argue a different perspective. My 42 years of reloading tells me that the primer is the weakest part in the assembly and will show pressure first. Pressure signs are good indicators.

Brian Pearce has published a lot of data on 44 Special and 45 Colt loads. I've used several of his loads that place 240 and 250gr bullets at 1100fps. If I want faster, I go to my 41 and 44 mags.

oldscot3 · August 9, 2011, 07:50 PM

You don't have to just buy a 44 magnum. Those Lipsey's Rugers mentioned and other firearms of their type are perfect justification for "hot" (not dangerous) 44 special loads. Proven safe past 25,000 psi but on a medium frame that's somewhat lighter, smaller and, in my opinion, handier than their larger 44 mag counterparts, a shooter can load what some call "spagnum" loads in the 20 to 25,000 range, and enjoy much better performance than the weak 15,000 psi standard loads.

You are, however, in mostly uncharted waters and right to be cautious of relying on shadetree pressure signs. Brian Pearce has written several informative articles on the matter, and includes pressure data. I'll bet you can safely work up to one his loads that you will like very much. Just be careful and be sure you are loading for and appropriately strong firearm.

August 9, 2011, 08:05 AM	#1
longfellow Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2010 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 144	The 44 Special and Manual data differences I have one new manual (Speer) and one old (Hornady) manual with drastically different max loads for the 44 Special. While I have one of the strongest Specials out there, I am still not comfortable with the differences in the max loads. The newer manual hovers around 900 f/s with all powders and the typical 240 gr bullet (Let's stick with jacketed stuff just to standardize and get some useful input out of this thread). The older Hornady edition goes to 1,100 which is pretty stiff, and the necessary load of Unique is 9.3 grains. I have never seen any recommendation for this combination of bullet and powder, above 7.0 grains and my own chronograph confirms that my standard load of (I better not give exact data here) 6.0-7.0 grains Unique gives me about 900. I've checked the obvious stuff like primer choice and barrel length but these are all about equal in the two manuals. I can't believe that we are talking the same max pressure target in these two manuals and neither do I feel comfortable just grabbing a third manual just to break the tie. Also, neither manual lists "specific" firearms that these loads should "only" be fired in. I'd like some supportable evidence if anyone has any, on the real causes for these two manuals giving presumably safe maximum loads. Thanks, Ed

August 9, 2011, 12:21 PM	#5
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	In addition to Mr. Watson's post, not all testing methods/equipment are the same. Different bbl lengths, different bullets (all same weight), some may use a universal receiver while some may use an actual firearm. Results will vary. Another thought going around these days are the "lawyer loads"; The manual printers/writers deliberately down loads the info for liability purposes. Start low and work up, or if you want "hot" .44 Special ammo, go with A .44 Maagnum, or stick with factory ammo... __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

August 9, 2011, 12:24 PM	#6
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,424	In my Ruger Lipseys 44 Bisley...... I've run 17.0 grains of 2400 under a 240gr RemSP, perfectly. No pressure signs at all. The old 7.5 Unique load is proven.

August 9, 2011, 12:32 PM	#7
longfellow Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2010 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 144	pressure signs Edward, I am a bid leary of relying on pressure signs. Take the 44 Special and its 15,500 psi max; Does a flattened primer indicate 16,000 or 20,000 psi? Given that this same primer is going in the 44 mag, is it not reasonable to expect that the flattened primer pressure isn't somewhere in the 30,000-40,000 psi range? How can the primer condition then be reliable? Case head? Well wouldn't the internal diameter of my chambers play a role here? and how about the inevitable .0005" or so difference BETWEEN chamber diameters? I've measured mine and there is at least this much variation, and given that excessive pressure is indicated, according to some sources, by only a thou or so over, isn't this half-a-though variation going to cloud the data? I guess I am just comming at it from the opposite perspective; I don't have anything close to a controlled environment to effectively use the commonly cited signs of excessive pressure and I feel more comfortable using the reloading guide as truth (as long as componnents match those used in creating the reloading table data) - just the opposite from your recommendation. I like the poster who suspects that we went from using these very subjective pressure signs years ago, to using better measuring equipment today and that I should go with the newer data. It is likely over-conservative, but lacking any specific data that was developed for MY revolver, together with a max pressure recommendation again, for my specific revolver (a value that I would only trust if comming from its manufacturer), I would be safer to just stick with the tables. Now, if VELOCITY can be an accurate representation of pressure and since I use a chronograph........ Never mind. I better not go there either. Thanks all, Ed Last edited by longfellow; August 9, 2011 at 04:21 PM.

August 9, 2011, 08:33 AM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	Your new Speer manual has pressure tested data and the SAAMI maximum pressure for .44 Special is pretty low, in consideration of the old guns that might still be in use. Your old Hornady manual likely shows what was acceptable in the then-new gun used for testfiring. Casehead expansion and subjective evaluation of primer appearance and ease of extraction, instead of a pressure test barrel, maybe. Such individual experimenters as Skeeter Skelton and Ken Waters considered 7.5 grains of Unique to be a reasonable maximum with 240 grain .44 Special. The Hornady load of 9.3 grains of Unique sounds like a lot to me.

August 9, 2011, 10:16 AM	#3
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,896	That (9.3gr Unique) load under a 240gr Jacketed approaches 27,000psi against the old 15,500psi 44 Special standard. On the other hand, it's well under the 44Mag standard of 36,000. If you're shooting 44 Special in a 44Mag frame that's one thing, but 7.5gr Unique looks like absolute max against the true 44 Special standard.

August 9, 2011, 11:13 AM	#4
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	I don't understand your problem. You start low and work up for your gun. Use the starting loads. Understand that the reloading data is not absolute, it is a guide. If you are using a 44 Special gun, and you work up the load, you will not get to the max load that you question before pressure signs will come. If you are using 44 Special brass in a 44 Mag gun and question the safety of going further, then switch to 44 Mag brass. I have a CA Bulldog and Ruger Redhawk that I load for. I have never loaded the Bulldog to approaching magnum loads. I have loaded the Mag down so far that it was like shooting a 22. I had to keep checking for squibs but there were none.

August 9, 2011, 07:27 PM	#8
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,424	Let's see, ask a question, get a good answer from Ed. Then argue a different perspective. My 42 years of reloading tells me that the primer is the weakest part in the assembly and will show pressure first. Pressure signs are good indicators. Brian Pearce has published a lot of data on 44 Special and 45 Colt loads. I've used several of his loads that place 240 and 250gr bullets at 1100fps. If I want faster, I go to my 41 and 44 mags.

August 9, 2011, 07:50 PM	#9
oldscot3 Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2007 Location: texas Posts: 997	You don't have to just buy a 44 magnum. Those Lipsey's Rugers mentioned and other firearms of their type are perfect justification for "hot" (not dangerous) 44 special loads. Proven safe past 25,000 psi but on a medium frame that's somewhat lighter, smaller and, in my opinion, handier than their larger 44 mag counterparts, a shooter can load what some call "spagnum" loads in the 20 to 25,000 range, and enjoy much better performance than the weak 15,000 psi standard loads. You are, however, in mostly uncharted waters and right to be cautious of relying on shadetree pressure signs. Brian Pearce has written several informative articles on the matter, and includes pressure data. I'll bet you can safely work up to one his loads that you will like very much. Just be careful and be sure you are loading for and appropriately strong firearm.