Close call today - Page 3

WVsig · February 17, 2016, 08:23 PM

Not to be too negative but there are IMHO way too many cheerleaders in this thread. Too many people are focusing on the gun. The gun would have never come into play if the OP had better situational awareness. Let me illustrate.

First you only need to have your window down at Sonic to order your food and receive your food. There is no reason to leave the window down if security is your #1 concern.

Second if you intend to leave your window down while enjoying your Sonjc choose a spot with good sight lines. Park where someone cannot sneak up on you from a blind spot. Park next to other cars. A robber is less likely to pick the middle car in row of 3 or more. If you cannot do that roll up the window or eat somewhere else.

Third Watch your six etc... And if you see anyone moving toward your vehicle roll up the window. You should have been aware that someone was coming toward your car much earlier than you indicate that you did. The guy walked you did not say he ran. Even at a brisk pace you should have seen him coming.

Having better situational awareness would have at least put a car window between you and your would be perp. Most likely, if he even was a perp not a pan handler, you would not even have had the encounter if your window was up. If one is looking to rob someone in a group you typically choose the easiest target. If I am going to ask someone for money I am going to ask the one with the open window first. The biggest barrier to my success is already down.

Also once you identified the "potential" treat you went for your gun but did not roll up the window? I have to ask why. I also ask why you did not do both? If there was a lapse in my situational awareness that put me in your position I would have dropped my juicy burger in my lap one hand would be rolling up the window the other would be on the gun in my holster but the closed window would give me physical and legal protection to draw if attacked. You had neither in your encounter but we're ready to draw and take a life. I have been carrying for over a decade and have never once put my hand on my carry gun with the intent to draw being imminent. I do everything I can to avoid that moment because I understand all the horrible things that can and will follow if that gun ever clears leather.

I am not trying to be rude. I am sure some here will consider this post that way but I personally believe that the best way to avoid having to use a gun to defend yourself is to not put your self in a situation where you have to defend yourself with a gun. By making smart situational choices like where to sit, where to park, knowing where the emergency exits are, walking in groups, well lit streets, etc... are all defensive weapons you should be deploying everyday instead of your hand on your pistol after being surprised by a man walking toward your open car window. IMHO Yes there will be that 1 in a million+ situation where you did everything right but still had to draw a gun and or shoot someone but you can greatly reduce those long odds by having better situational awareness and maybe not eating at a drive in. LOL

Targa · February 17, 2016, 08:54 PM

Can't live in a bubble, had the window down to order which if you don't your just talking to youself right? Happened quickly according to the op yet she was aware enough in that second or two to realize that this situation wasn't right ie...normal people do not act in that matter, had her hand on the tool that could save her if the moment turned south but at the same time had enough composure not to panick and prematurely engage this party with that tool when ultimately he walked away, all of which it sounds like took place in seconds. Situational awareness? I think she did pretty well.

WVsig · February 17, 2016, 09:00 PM

Targa reread the OP ordered and received food "window still down".

She did a decent job playing catchup but there were huge breakdowns in her situational awareness so much so that no one can determine if there really was a threat. She assumed there was but we don't really know do we?

Strong situational awareness could have prevented the entire incident IMHO.

TunnelRat · February 17, 2016, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Also once you identified the "potential" treat you went for your gun but did not roll up the window? I have to ask why.

I thought about this originally as well, but one thing I will point out is that newer vehicles have automatically reversing windows if they encounter resistance. So all the guy would have to do is put a hand in the open window and it would stop as soon as it hit the hand/arm and actually reverse direction and go down. Still a good idea either way if just to buy you time.

Quote:

Strong situational awareness could have prevented the entire incident IMHO.

Probably, but hindsight is always 20/20 and people make mistakes (we also don't know how long the window was down). That's why I suggested training. Shooting at a range doesn't teach you to watch sight lines or maintain situational awareness. If just allows you to practice the mechanics of shooting. Many people don't know what to look for until people talk to them about it.

I also don't personally see this as a real incident. The guy was rude and make the OP uncomfortable, but all he needed was a verbal response to leave. I've encountered more insistent panhandlers than this.

WVsig · February 17, 2016, 09:13 PM

Quote:

I also don't personally see this as a real incident. The guy was rude and make the OP uncomfortable, but all he needed was a verbal response to leave. I've encountered more insistent panhandlers than this.

I agree 100% which is why I agree with getting training but I also am concerned that a relatively new concealed carry holder was ready to draw and saw that as a reasonable response. When no physical or verbal threat was present. I am also alarmed that so few people seem concerned with that.

TunnelRat · February 17, 2016, 09:17 PM

^ That's why I left my original response because my thoughts were also along those lines. The OP seems to have clarified that drawing wasn't her intent at the time nor her suggested/desired action in this thread. As folks have said, training and as you pointed out institutional awareness both go a long way. Hopefully people learn from this.

Scatcatt · February 17, 2016, 09:21 PM

My window was down because I had received my food which I was situating in the seat next to me. It was late and I was planning on eating it on the way home. So yes indeed the window could have been rolled up which I failed to do. My car was turned off because I had been waiting. So I would have had to crank the car and roll up the window because there was no power. Either way this is my last post. My point to this post was missed about a year ago. lol

K_Mac · February 17, 2016, 09:34 PM

I completely agree that situational awareness is fundamental in protecting ourselves. Recognizing and avoiding dangerous situations, and taking immediate action to remove ourselves from them is far better than a confrontation that could turn very bad in a heartbeat. I also know that it takes intense focus and practice to do this. I wish I could say that I am always aware. I have spent much time and more than a few dollars to learn how to do this, but all to often I realize my attention is not where it should be.

Scatcatt you very likely learned a thing or two in this encounter and where able to drive away with no harm done. That is a very good outcome.

WVsig · February 17, 2016, 09:39 PM

Quote:

I completely agree that situational awareness is fundamental in protecting ourselves. Recognizing and avoiding dangerous situations, and taking immediate action to remove ourselves from them is far better than a confrontation that could turn very bad in a heartbeat. I also know that it takes intense focus and practice to do this. I wish I could say that I am always aware. I have spent much time and more than a few dollars to learn how to do this, but all to often I realize my attention is not where it should be.

Scatcatt you very likely learned a thing or two in this encounter and where able to drive away with no harm done. That is a very good outcome.

Don't get me wrong I am far from perfect when it comes to situational awareness. No one is and we all get distracted. We all make mistakes and sometimes will find ourselves behind the curve but when we are new to concealed carry we need to be extra vigilant. You also should get training so that you know how to asses and deal with a potential threat and how to avoid them in the first place.

We all have lapses but there is a difference between lapses in our focus and not knowing what we should be focusing on and the paramount importance of that focus. We also need to be willing to take coaching/training and criticism when we suffer those lapses. This is how we get better and avoid making the same mistakes over and over again or god forbid a worse mistake.

rtpzwms · February 18, 2016, 01:03 AM

Quote:

That's why I advise avoiding confrontation and walking away from aggressors whenever possible.

exactly, as far as I'm concerned I'll shoot only to extend my escape. There is no way I'm moving forward in a gun battle. I'm leaving as fast and as far as possible.

shootniron · February 18, 2016, 01:55 AM

Quote:

The way your post was worded made it seem like going for the gun was your first instinct just because a man with a hoodie approached your car,

He was through the window and in the car.

She was justified in the way she felt.

Branko · February 18, 2016, 04:26 AM

The gun wasn't out; it was merely ready to draw if it becomes necessary. Which is okay and legal. Drawing it at that point would've been illegal. So, in this regard, no harm, no foul. Maybe not ideal, but, well, pushing your head in someone's car is asking for trouble. Of course, situational awareness would've helped but realistically, you can't avoid all interactions with people.

If someone walks up to your car and knocks on your window, you're going to roll it down a bit to hear what they want. Mostly it's panhandlers, but you get all sorts of people. Sometimes it's someone genuinely asking instructions, wanting to sell me things, wanting to tell me my light isn't working - all sorts. Once I was stopped by a guy who returned me some cash I dropped when rummaging for the car keys (there are well intentoned people,too). However, sometimes you get people who are obviously not right in the head, and in my view, when it's someone not wired properly, it's better to be nice and resolve it peacefully, especially if you have a gun on you.

Although I do not normally carry a gun (permits for carry in my country are rarely given and I don't feel some sort of need which would compel me to go through all the red tape involved), every sunday and some saturdays I drive to the range, naturally, with my guns in the bag beside me. So, this guy walks in our parking lot and first stops a neighbour's car - he was also going somewhere - neighbour drives away with this guy waving arms and cursing after him - and then stops mine and knocks on the window. I get this mixed up story about him being a war veteran and hungry children and all that, but I get the hint of desperation in the man's voice.

Sure, I could tell him to bugger off, put my hand on the gun, or I don't know what. However, he sounded like a desperate man who might actually turn to violence (as opposed to 'agressive' panhandlers which try to intimidate). His story might be true or might not be true, but I'd rather not get in a fight while having a gun and in the end shoot someone over small change. A man would be killed, in plain sight of my daughter, I would face years of fighting in court, and so on. Some change and he was genuinely grateful and walked off. I may have helped someone, and if I didn't, at least, avoided an altercation while armed. If you carry a gun, it's up to you to behave to a higher standard.

zincwarrior · February 18, 2016, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Quote:
I also don't personally see this as a real incident. The guy was rude and make the OP uncomfortable, but all he needed was a verbal response to leave. I've encountered more insistent panhandlers than this.
I agree 100% which is why I agree with getting training but I also am concerned that a relatively new concealed carry holder was ready to draw and saw that as a reasonable response. When no physical or verbal threat was present. I am also alarmed that so few people seem concerned with that.
__________________

Indeed.

**OldMarksman** · February 18, 2016, 10:01 AM

Quote:

....I have been told if its worth shooting, shoot till down and dead

At least one person who did that to an armed robber is serving a life sentence for first degree murder.

SansSouci · February 18, 2016, 02:14 PM

Scattcatt,

I'm not so sure that your call was as close as you're thinking it was. If he was truly a bad guy & he knew what he was doing, he had you. Never, ever allow a bad guy to get close enough to touch you.

Action is faster than reaction. If you were to allow a bad guy to get that close to you, you might want to pray that he's merely soliciting for his school.

SansSouci · February 18, 2016, 02:15 PM

OldMarksman,

Post a link to the site where you found that info.

Thanks.

TimSr · February 18, 2016, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Can't live in a bubble, had the window down to order which if you don't your just talking to youself right? Happened quickly according to the op yet she was aware enough in that second or two to realize that this situation wasn't right ie...normal people do not act in that matter, had her hand on the tool that could save her if the moment turned south but at the same time had enough composure not to panick and prematurely engage this party with that tool when ultimately he walked away, all of which it sounds like took place in seconds. Situational awareness? I think she did pretty well.

I have to agree. From the sounds of it, there was time to get her hand on the tool, and it was very questionable as to whether there was time to get the window up, and probably complete doubt as to whether there was time to do both. She probably never had time to think of step two, which is had the guy had more sinister intentions, would that window have helped or further put her in harm's way? He could be unarmed, he could have a knife, he could have a brick, or he could have a gun. That drivers side window might not be an asset in every situation and it might have drawn a different response from the guy.

Situational awareness is great, but if it were 100% effective, we wouldn't need the gun.

She was aware of the situation before it happened, and managed to be prepared for it by the time it did, and will probably be a lot more aware when in a drive up of any kind in the future. I'm sure she has run it through her head a thousand times in hindsight, and seems to be satisfied with the way she handled it, so I'll be a cheerleader.

t45 · February 18, 2016, 03:24 PM

I personally think she did just fine.....

TunnelRat · February 18, 2016, 06:50 PM

Quote:

I'm not so sure that your call was as close as you're thinking it was. If he was truly a bad guy & he knew what he was doing, he had you. Never, ever allow a bad guy to get close enough to touch you.

Do you ever go anywhere with people? Ever pass through doorways? Wait in line? Because when you do you're close enough for people to touch you, and they're not bad guys until they do something to let you know.

j3ffr0 · February 19, 2016, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Strong situational awareness could have prevented the entire incident IMHO.

I view the glass as half full instead of half empty. I would say OP's strong situation awareness did prevent an incident.

Yes she could have eaten with the windows up. She could have gone somewhere else. She could have stayed home. She could have hid under her car to eat. But what would be the fun in that? I don't call overly cautious behavior situational awareness. I call it cautious OCD, or living in fear.

We each get to choose how we balance the risks of life.

Limnophile · February 19, 2016, 02:12 AM

^ Exactly. The best situational awareness, taking some of the arguments presented herein to their ultimate conclusion, is to stay home behind barricaded doors and windows.

Drive-in restaurants are designed to require the patron to roll down his window. I suppose you could take delivery of the food through the sunroof, or, worse, by opening the door. I've eaten at Sonic in three locations, and none of them were seedy. I doubt many are.

I don't regard the incident under discussion as a defensive gun use, because at no time did the panhandler/potential perp know Scattcat had a weapon. He may have deduced the fact from the target and holster on the passenger's seat, but I think a weapon needs to be at least brandished to count as a DGU. And given that the incident is not a DGU, I see nothing to criticize.

Pond, James Pond · February 19, 2016, 03:02 AM

Quote:

also I have been told if its worth shooting, shoot till down and dead

Ye gads....

Hideously bad advice, IMO.

Once the threat has gone, anything more could potentially be judged as attempted or actual murder.

I would strike that advice from your consciousness forthwith.

It is bad advice. Don't use it, don't impart it.

Jleonard · February 19, 2016, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Ye gads....
Hideously bad advice, IMO.
Once the threat has gone, anything more could potentially be judged as attempted or actual murder.
I would strike that advice from your consciousness forthwith.
It is bad advice. Don't use it, don't impart it.

Agreed. 100%

Skans · February 19, 2016, 09:37 AM

Quote:

The gun wasn't out; it was merely ready to draw if it becomes necessary. Which is okay and legal. Drawing it at that point would've been illegal.

Wearing a hoodie and sticking your head into a stranger's car asking for money is a very aggressive act. Personally, I would have punched him (because I can and can inflict considerable pain), and I might have drawn my gun if I couldn't pound on him enough to get him to leave. This is one instance where I could see drawing my gun, give a loud warning and not shoot if at all possible. The reason is because, while he has his head in your car, you really do have a bit more control over the situation; at least until you see him reach for a knife or gun, or try and open your door.

SansSouci · February 19, 2016, 09:40 AM

TunnelRat,

Your post is very false dichotomy. Yours represents a person voluntarily moving among others. The other is allowing an unknown person to invade personal space of another.

While I am not paranoid, I do pay attention to my environments. If I see potential threats, I avoid them.

The reality, though, is you've assuredly postured yourself in this thread and will seek most tenuous rhetoric in effort to defend it.

February 17, 2016, 08:23 PM	#51
WVsig Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2010 Location: NC Posts: 5,309	Not to be too negative but there are IMHO way too many cheerleaders in this thread. Too many people are focusing on the gun. The gun would have never come into play if the OP had better situational awareness. Let me illustrate. First you only need to have your window down at Sonic to order your food and receive your food. There is no reason to leave the window down if security is your #1 concern. Second if you intend to leave your window down while enjoying your Sonjc choose a spot with good sight lines. Park where someone cannot sneak up on you from a blind spot. Park next to other cars. A robber is less likely to pick the middle car in row of 3 or more. If you cannot do that roll up the window or eat somewhere else. Third Watch your six etc... And if you see anyone moving toward your vehicle roll up the window. You should have been aware that someone was coming toward your car much earlier than you indicate that you did. The guy walked you did not say he ran. Even at a brisk pace you should have seen him coming. Having better situational awareness would have at least put a car window between you and your would be perp. Most likely, if he even was a perp not a pan handler, you would not even have had the encounter if your window was up. If one is looking to rob someone in a group you typically choose the easiest target. If I am going to ask someone for money I am going to ask the one with the open window first. The biggest barrier to my success is already down. Also once you identified the "potential" treat you went for your gun but did not roll up the window? I have to ask why. I also ask why you did not do both? If there was a lapse in my situational awareness that put me in your position I would have dropped my juicy burger in my lap one hand would be rolling up the window the other would be on the gun in my holster but the closed window would give me physical and legal protection to draw if attacked. You had neither in your encounter but we're ready to draw and take a life. I have been carrying for over a decade and have never once put my hand on my carry gun with the intent to draw being imminent. I do everything I can to avoid that moment because I understand all the horrible things that can and will follow if that gun ever clears leather. I am not trying to be rude. I am sure some here will consider this post that way but I personally believe that the best way to avoid having to use a gun to defend yourself is to not put your self in a situation where you have to defend yourself with a gun. By making smart situational choices like where to sit, where to park, knowing where the emergency exits are, walking in groups, well lit streets, etc... are all defensive weapons you should be deploying everyday instead of your hand on your pistol after being surprised by a man walking toward your open car window. IMHO Yes there will be that 1 in a million+ situation where you did everything right but still had to draw a gun and or shoot someone but you can greatly reduce those long odds by having better situational awareness and maybe not eating at a drive in. LOL __________________ -The right to be left alone is the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by free people.-Louis Brandeis -Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all... -Sam from Ronin -It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle Last edited by WVsig; February 17, 2016 at 09:10 PM. Reason: Typos

February 17, 2016, 09:00 PM	#53
WVsig Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2010 Location: NC Posts: 5,309	Targa reread the OP ordered and received food "window still down". She did a decent job playing catchup but there were huge breakdowns in her situational awareness so much so that no one can determine if there really was a threat. She assumed there was but we don't really know do we? Strong situational awareness could have prevented the entire incident IMHO. __________________ -The right to be left alone is the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by free people.-Louis Brandeis -Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all... -Sam from Ronin -It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

February 17, 2016, 09:17 PM	#56
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	^ That's why I left my original response because my thoughts were also along those lines. The OP seems to have clarified that drawing wasn't her intent at the time nor her suggested/desired action in this thread. As folks have said, training and as you pointed out institutional awareness both go a long way. Hopefully people learn from this. __________________ Know the status of your weapon Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture Maintain situational awareness

February 17, 2016, 09:34 PM	#58
K_Mac Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2010 Posts: 1,850	I completely agree that situational awareness is fundamental in protecting ourselves. Recognizing and avoiding dangerous situations, and taking immediate action to remove ourselves from them is far better than a confrontation that could turn very bad in a heartbeat. I also know that it takes intense focus and practice to do this. I wish I could say that I am always aware. I have spent much time and more than a few dollars to learn how to do this, but all to often I realize my attention is not where it should be. Scatcatt you very likely learned a thing or two in this encounter and where able to drive away with no harm done. That is a very good outcome. __________________ "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin

February 18, 2016, 04:26 AM	#62
Branko Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2015 Location: Croatia Posts: 188	The gun wasn't out; it was merely ready to draw if it becomes necessary. Which is okay and legal. Drawing it at that point would've been illegal. So, in this regard, no harm, no foul. Maybe not ideal, but, well, pushing your head in someone's car is asking for trouble. Of course, situational awareness would've helped but realistically, you can't avoid all interactions with people. If someone walks up to your car and knocks on your window, you're going to roll it down a bit to hear what they want. Mostly it's panhandlers, but you get all sorts of people. Sometimes it's someone genuinely asking instructions, wanting to sell me things, wanting to tell me my light isn't working - all sorts. Once I was stopped by a guy who returned me some cash I dropped when rummaging for the car keys (there are well intentoned people,too). However, sometimes you get people who are obviously not right in the head, and in my view, when it's someone not wired properly, it's better to be nice and resolve it peacefully, especially if you have a gun on you. Although I do not normally carry a gun (permits for carry in my country are rarely given and I don't feel some sort of need which would compel me to go through all the red tape involved), every sunday and some saturdays I drive to the range, naturally, with my guns in the bag beside me. So, this guy walks in our parking lot and first stops a neighbour's car - he was also going somewhere - neighbour drives away with this guy waving arms and cursing after him - and then stops mine and knocks on the window. I get this mixed up story about him being a war veteran and hungry children and all that, but I get the hint of desperation in the man's voice. Sure, I could tell him to bugger off, put my hand on the gun, or I don't know what. However, he sounded like a desperate man who might actually turn to violence (as opposed to 'agressive' panhandlers which try to intimidate). His story might be true or might not be true, but I'd rather not get in a fight while having a gun and in the end shoot someone over small change. A man would be killed, in plain sight of my daughter, I would face years of fighting in court, and so on. Some change and he was genuinely grateful and walked off. I may have helped someone, and if I didn't, at least, avoided an altercation while armed. If you carry a gun, it's up to you to behave to a higher standard. Last edited by Branko; February 18, 2016 at 04:33 AM.

February 17, 2016, 08:54 PM	#52
Targa Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2014 Posts: 2,084	Can't live in a bubble, had the window down to order which if you don't your just talking to youself right? Happened quickly according to the op yet she was aware enough in that second or two to realize that this situation wasn't right ie...normal people do not act in that matter, had her hand on the tool that could save her if the moment turned south but at the same time had enough composure not to panick and prematurely engage this party with that tool when ultimately he walked away, all of which it sounds like took place in seconds. Situational awareness? I think she did pretty well.

February 17, 2016, 09:21 PM	#57
Scatcatt Member Join Date: January 21, 2016 Posts: 74	My window was down because I had received my food which I was situating in the seat next to me. It was late and I was planning on eating it on the way home. So yes indeed the window could have been rolled up which I failed to do. My car was turned off because I had been waiting. So I would have had to crank the car and roll up the window because there was no power. Either way this is my last post. My point to this post was missed about a year ago. lol

February 18, 2016, 02:14 PM	#65
SansSouci Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2013 Location: Heart of Reagan Country Posts: 479	Scattcatt, I'm not so sure that your call was as close as you're thinking it was. If he was truly a bad guy & he knew what he was doing, he had you. Never, ever allow a bad guy to get close enough to touch you. Action is faster than reaction. If you were to allow a bad guy to get that close to you, you might want to pray that he's merely soliciting for his school.

February 18, 2016, 02:15 PM	#66
SansSouci Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2013 Location: Heart of Reagan Country Posts: 479	OldMarksman, Post a link to the site where you found that info. Thanks.

February 18, 2016, 03:24 PM	#68
t45 Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2010 Location: Foothills, NC Posts: 782	I personally think she did just fine.....

February 19, 2016, 02:12 AM	#71
Limnophile Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2015 Location: Issaquah, Washington Posts: 1,032	^ Exactly. The best situational awareness, taking some of the arguments presented herein to their ultimate conclusion, is to stay home behind barricaded doors and windows. Drive-in restaurants are designed to require the patron to roll down his window. I suppose you could take delivery of the food through the sunroof, or, worse, by opening the door. I've eaten at Sonic in three locations, and none of them were seedy. I doubt many are. I don't regard the incident under discussion as a defensive gun use, because at no time did the panhandler/potential perp know Scattcat had a weapon. He may have deduced the fact from the target and holster on the passenger's seat, but I think a weapon needs to be at least brandished to count as a DGU. And given that the incident is not a DGU, I see nothing to criticize. Last edited by Limnophile; February 19, 2016 at 10:36 PM.

February 19, 2016, 09:40 AM	#75
SansSouci Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2013 Location: Heart of Reagan Country Posts: 479	TunnelRat, Your post is very false dichotomy. Yours represents a person voluntarily moving among others. The other is allowing an unknown person to invade personal space of another. While I am not paranoid, I do pay attention to my environments. If I see potential threats, I avoid them. The reality, though, is you've assuredly postured yourself in this thread and will seek most tenuous rhetoric in effort to defend it.