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Old May 20, 2011, 04:44 PM   #76
Aguila Blanca
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New case: http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crim...tml?mode=story

Need more information. As far as I'm concerned, it's just another example of why no knocks and dynamic entry warrants should not be allowed. In this case, the "civilian" is dead, so we have the word of his widow against the word of five police officers who have had two weeks to get their story straight.

It stinks. These types of warrants have no place in our society. The premise of a warrant is that it's supposed to be "served." Too often today a search warrant is nothing more than a license for the police to commit assault.
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Old May 20, 2011, 08:34 PM   #77
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I would say that if you know somebody has weapons, and may use them, you don't bang on the door and announce, then stand there until they get the gun and shoot you through the wall. Or flush dope down the drain. Are "no knocks" to be used in every situation? No. But they have a place in police work.
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Old May 20, 2011, 08:48 PM   #78
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I certainly believe that no-knock warrants have their place in police work. I think they're an absolute necessity is certain cases. However, the system should seek to ensure that their use is limited to absolute necessity, as described by Conn Trooper. There is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for EVER entering the wrong location. The police have maps, they do stake outs, they can draw pictures, take pictures. There's no excuse. If it's a no-knock, you HAVE TO BE right.
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Old May 20, 2011, 09:40 PM   #79
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OK. I just had a piece of "crow pie." [cough, cough]

Update: The Indiana sheriff has made a statement contradicting the original story:

Quote:
On May 16, 2011, I was contacted by a reporter of an internet radio station. Her question concerned a recent Indiana Supreme Court decision, allowing police officers to make random warrantless searches. I advised her that I was not clear on that particular ruling; she then asked how the Sheriff’s Office conducted searches of residences. I informed her that searches were only conducted with a warrant, probable cause or when an officer is in hot pursuit. When questioned about the Supreme Court ruling, I advised her that as police officers, we enforce those laws set forth by our legislative branch. This reporter then asked about the violation of Constitutional Rights. This State Supreme Court ruling in my opinion cannot override our U.S. Constitutional Rights and I’m sure this state ruling will be revisited.

When I was asked about my thoughts on random searches and how people would react, I gave her the scenario of looking for a criminal or escapee. I advised her that if people were aware of this situation, they would gladly let you search a detached garage, outbuilding, etc., if it meant keeping them safe, but this would only be after securing permission.

This court ruling is just open for lawsuits if a police officer would attempt a random search without due cause. Somewhere in this conversation things were definitely taken out of context. I'm now quoted as saying the Sheriff's Office will be conducting random house to house searches.

I want the citizens of Newton County to rest assured that no member of the Newton County Sheriff’s Office will enter the property of another person without first having a warrant or probable cause to do so. I strongly stand behind my oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States of America, as well as that of the State of Indiana.
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Old May 20, 2011, 10:09 PM   #80
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Is he backpedalling or setting the record straight, I wonder? Hopefully correcting a misapprehension.
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Old May 20, 2011, 10:24 PM   #81
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Is he backpedalling or setting the record straight, I wonder? Hopefully correcting a misapprehension.
Probably a little of both. (it's a good thing that the sheriff is an elected position) I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and say it's mostly correcting a miscommunication.
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Old May 20, 2011, 10:26 PM   #82
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just me

I'm not resisting the police.

That being said, I've never sued anyone in my entire life but there are ways to become rich that I wouldn't pass up and are 100% legal.
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Old May 20, 2011, 10:33 PM   #83
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That talking head probably should have put a direct quote from the sheriff on the page.


In a local paper a reporter wrote that having an FFL authorizes you to carry a concealed weapon here in Texas... a guy had shot a person over an argument about a dog and killed the dog and the owner. I wrote the paper about the error never heard back from them.

Also a few weeks later a guy from the paper wrote an article about lawsuits and used a couple of examples that were urban legends.

I was interviewed for an article about my military service in the local paper. All I can say is think about your answers and qualify them thoroughly to the media people. I even asked the reporter for a copy of the article before it was published to make sure what I said was in the proper context. Even then when I read it in the paper there was a thing or two that was not in the proper context as changes were made.

I still work for the military and every now and then I get a call from the media. I keep the Public Affairs Officer's telephone number handy for them. lol

So if you see something in the paper or media that makes you want to joint the rope, pitchfork and fire brigade... you might want to get the rest of the story as Paul Harvey says.
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Old May 21, 2011, 06:53 AM   #84
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Quote:
Is he backpedalling or setting the record straight,
My money is that he's setting the record straight. I've had just enough experience with reporters to know how they get things wrong when it's anything the least bit complicated.
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Old May 21, 2011, 11:28 AM   #85
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I have revisited this thread several times and finally read the original article. As I read it, the couple was arguing outside and then went inside. The man then denied entry. It sounds to me like this was a legal entry by police because of probable cause. The thinking may have been that the woman could have been threatened or injured and that the man was denying the officers access to her, thus interfering with proper investigation.

As for the nonsense about the justice stating that unlawful entry is justified...I still have to say, "Huh? Unlawful is unlawful. What can be too difficult for a judge to understand? The guy sounds moronic and IMHO should be disbarred."

If LEO truly tries to enter my residence without probable cause or a warrant, I am not likely to interfere unless proper ID has not been presented. Then it is open season on prowlers.

But if properly ID'd, I would be as polite as possible to avoid any complications. I would then sort out the legalities later.

Maybe I am missing something here?
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Old May 21, 2011, 12:54 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle Eye
If LEO truly tries to enter my residence without probable cause or a warrant, I am not likely to interfere unless proper ID has not been presented. Then it is open season on prowlers.

But if properly ID'd, I would be as polite as possible to avoid any complications. I would then sort out the legalities later.

Maybe I am missing something here?
The only thing you might be missing is the modern tendency of police departments to turn just about every warrant "service" into a dynamic entry. The classic concept of knocking politely, identifying themselves as police (which means showing an ID, not just wearing a uniform that can be purchased over the Internet) and allowing the occupant to read the warrant (and thus have an opportunity to point out that the warrant is for John Smith on 1234 Donut Drive, not for Jon Smythe on 123 Doughnut Street) has been thrown under the bus ... generally in the name of "officer safety" (although they usually claim it's to protect the public).

Basically, they don't like the idea that they are supposed to "serve" warrants. They prefer to rely on a "shock and awe" strategy so they can (hopefully -- for them) overwhelm any objections by massive display of force. Which was perhaps a viable concept ... up until the bad guys started wearing cop uniforms to perpetrate home invasions. The cops (and the courts) are either behind the times or intentionally playing dumb in that they do not acknowledge that there is no way I can KNOW that the posse of armed men in black BDUs bashing in my door at oh-dark-thirty are really cops. Anybody can yell, "Police! Open up!"

It's the same principle as requiring the red paint on the muzzles of airsoft pistols. How does that tell a cop not to shoot the person holding the pistol? Does any sane person think a BG isn't smart enough to put some red paint on the muzzle of a real gun?

No knock warrants, short delay warrants, and dynamic entries should not be allowed -- period.

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; May 21, 2011 at 01:01 PM.
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Old May 21, 2011, 04:40 PM   #87
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A similar case in Tucson results in the death of an Iraq war vet. The circumstances are obviously different, but Pima County's SWAT team has just executed a drug raid and killed a vet - shooting him 60 times. He was armed, but never took his weapon off safe. I'm reserving judgement at this point, but obviously no one can be happy with this outcome.
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Old May 21, 2011, 04:42 PM   #88
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It is great to live in a small town a block from the Chief of Police. And the officers always wave at me as they pass. You poor city slickers should get out of Dodge!
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Old May 21, 2011, 04:46 PM   #89
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Interesting thought. What if the cop is lawfully entering but you think it is unlawful and stop him.
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Old May 21, 2011, 04:47 PM   #90
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CMSSS........what a bunch of trigger happy idiots. The follow-up will be interesting if we ever hear it. More than likely it will be well edited.
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Old May 21, 2011, 04:49 PM   #91
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csmss, in the abc link you posted, the police have withheld comment on whether any illegal materials were found at Guerena's house. OTOH, Guerena's widow's lawyer has flat-out stated that the police found nothing illegal at the house.

I can't believe he'd make such a bold statement if the police had found anything, as it might open him up for libel or slander; so, the facts aren't in yet, but I will be surprised if the Tucson SD found anything.

Also, the SWAT team did a dynamic, no-knock entry on a home that had at least one infant inside.

So, I am not reserving judgement. Even if drugs were there, executing a no-knock AFTER THEY HAD SEEN THE BABY was ridiculous, moronic, brainless, take your choice of adjectives.
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Old May 21, 2011, 05:35 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chasep255
Interesting thought. What if the cop is lawfully entering but you think it is unlawful and stop him.
That's what we're talking about.

The cops take a very narrow view that "We've got badges and uniforms, we're the police!" They overlook the fact that when they're outside bashing on the door, the people on the inside can't SEE the badges and the uniforms. And since anyone can buy a badge and a uniform, that doesn't provide any proof that the guys smashing through the door aren't home invaders, anyway. Yeah, it may be a real cop and he may have a technically-legal warrant to conduct a no-knock entry -- but if I'm the guy inside, and they have the wrong address on the warrant or somebody lied to get the warrant, how am I supposed to know they are legitimate?

If you read through the archives of no knocks gone bad on the web site of the Cato Institute, there are any number of cases where warrants were "served" on people who bought a house and moved in, six months prior. The cops were so out of date they had no idea that the people they were after had not lived at that address for SIX FREAKIN' MONTHS.
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Old May 21, 2011, 05:51 PM   #93
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not to mention the old couple in chicago on the news. they are old and have been raided BY MISTAKE about 4 times or more
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Old May 21, 2011, 06:14 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca
If you read through the archives of no knocks gone bad on the web site of the Cato Institute, there are any number of cases where warrants were "served" on people who bought a house and moved in, six months prior. The cops were so out of date they had no idea that the people they were after had not lived at that address for SIX FREAKIN' MONTHS.
Heck, I've seen a multi-agency task force getting ready to break in and serve a warrant on a guy that had been in prison 25 miles down the road for over a year! What kind of information could they have possibly been acting on?
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Old May 21, 2011, 06:19 PM   #95
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I think I see some confusion here.

I dont think it's legal for the police to enter a private place based upon probable cause. They may enter with a warant. That warrant must be based upon probably cause. That probable cause must pass a two pronged test, and be aproved by a justice, or a judge.

As I remember there are several exceptions to this rule

1) Permission.
2) Exigent circumstance
3) Danger of loss or destruction of evidence.
4) Evidence open to plain view

There may be another my old mind cant remember... forgive me.

In order to obtain a no knock endorsement the judge must agree that knocking, and announcing will put the officers lives, or the lives of others in danger.
It seems that some judges are granting no knock warrants as a matter of course for anything involving narcotics. I personally think thats bad.

There's also some confusion about how these warrants are served. What we mostly see on TV and all the swat show's isnt a dynamic entry. It's a controlled entry. A SWAT team stacked up, flash bang's, armored vehicals, house surrounded, a plan in place, intelligence in place... All of this add's up to a controlled entry. This is and should be the method in 99% of all narcotics warrants. It's also the safest method for the police, and for the subjects in the warranted location.

A dynamic entry is usually less organized, and is more critical situation driven. Traditionaly a dynamic entry is used when there isnt time to organize a controlled entry.

A Controlled entry is ALWAYS conducted by SWAT or a similar unit that has been trained, and experienced in this work. They are equiped with the proper tools, and again experience for this. When conducting a controlled entry they have been briefed, set up a plan, a disaster plan, assingned duties to each member. They are a team working by the same rules, and plans. In my experience they are 99% successfull.

A dynamic entry could be performed by a SWAT team... but could be performed by other properly trained officers. The best way I can describe a dynamic entry is by saying it's an adjustable entry. The officers must adjust to conditions as they develop.
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Old May 21, 2011, 06:23 PM   #96
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IMO the problems begin when Officers who arent trained to do either try to make a dynamic entry.

Sometimes people including police Officers confuse a premis search with a dynamic entry. This is extremely dangerous for the Officers, and the people inside the warented location.

Comments?
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Old May 21, 2011, 06:36 PM   #97
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Glenn I can't comment much on that post but it is also true that every officer involved doesn't always have a lot of experience or expertise(they are human) so this can cause issues and mistakes.

I can comment on Don's last post. I too(if I am understanding your post and remembering some other previous posts from last night), do not think the police can enter without a warrant. whatever the exception(s), they need pertinent reasons(baby's life in harm as an example), a signature, a go-ahead for proper authority, etc, etc. Arresting someone who exercises their constitutional right to refuse to allow a search doesn't seem correct to me. A person can be detained or held outside while a warrant is attempted to be obtained as one example(like if the owner has stated something about numerous pot plants as an example and the officers dont want them destroyed, flushed, whatever wile they attempt to get a search/warrant approved. someone can refuse a search; the cops are going to search if they want to or feel they can anyways but you lose your rights when you willingly allow the search(which lawyers will tell you not to do).
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Old May 21, 2011, 07:08 PM   #98
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Don H.
I have seen those kinds of mistakes happen. In every case it was sloppy investigative, and police work. Sometimes in indifferent judge will fuel the fire. But those incidents are few and far between.

I'll describe the method of obtaining a warrant I used.
First off IMO the least reliable kind of information is that from an informant.
An officer using an informant to obtain a warrant must exercise extra care in proving the information as well as the location to be searched.
The informant must be reliable, and have been reliable in the past.
The information taken from the informant should be independantly investigated, and proven by the police. The information must also be recent.
Once both of those points have been met... The informant must physically mark the location he has sworn is the scene of criminal activity. Before entering the police must see the informants mark, and that the exact address matches the warranted address.

If there is a difference however slight the warrant is invalid for this location. In our case depending on the time of day we could call in for a telephonic warrant, or a telephonic amendment to the existing warrant.

Glenn D.
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Old May 21, 2011, 07:09 PM   #99
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That's my understanding as well. Castles are somewhat legally sacred. Probable cause doesn't cut it. LE needs a warrant or exigent circumstances to enter.

However, these days exigent circumstances could probably be met if an officer articulates that there were pine tree fresheners hanging from the rear view mirror of a car parked in the driveway, and he was worried the people inside had seen him and were going to somehow dispose of their entire mj grow operation (judged by the number of car air fresheners) in the time it took to get a warrant.
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Old May 21, 2011, 07:15 PM   #100
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LOL Tyme... thats not what exigent circumstance means. Exigent circumstance is like.... A child is missing... and someone see's her sneaker on the basement floor of a home, and can hear crying from inside. The police wouldnt need a warrant in such a case.
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