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Old October 8, 2017, 03:12 PM   #1
Kwik2010
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.357 Magnum SNS 158grn SWC info.

I'm very green to reloading ccast lead so bear with me. I acquired a box of sns semi wad cutters for my 357. The data on their website states that they can be run up to 1500fps out of a revolver with their coating and they have a Brinnell hardness of 16 to 17. I can't find much in any of my manuals in terms of loads that could accompliah this with lead load data(Hornady 7th Edition and speer #14). I'm going to load some up over some unique powder for plinking but was curious where I could find info for a fairly hot load for trail carry (GP100 4") using the same bullet. I have H110 and Unique in enough quantity that I'd like to stay with these powders if possible. Any ideas or information would be greatly appreciated.

Last edited by Kwik2010; October 8, 2017 at 03:48 PM.
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Old October 8, 2017, 03:58 PM   #2
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Don't use jacketed data for cast, especially at top end.

I have some old Lyman data that takes a 158 cast SWC (linotype) up to 1460 with H110 in a 4" vented test barrel. Found that in this;
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/44...loading-manual
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Old October 8, 2017, 04:02 PM   #3
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Ya I wasn't thinking when I wrote that originally. I should have known better than that. It's since been edited out but thank you. I'll look into that book.
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Old October 8, 2017, 04:42 PM   #4
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For $7 it's a gold mine of data, including some older, hotter loads that you don't find anywhere else.
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Old October 8, 2017, 04:53 PM   #5
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It's on order as we speak. I thank you much for that info.
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Old October 8, 2017, 05:15 PM   #6
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Kwik2010,

Velocity ratings are misleading (and possibly mis-leading ). Velocity changes with barrel length even if the peak pressure stays the same. The peak pressure is what determines whether or not a bullet is distorted and how rapidly it is being accelerated in the rifling, a factor that determines whether or not it is stripped by the rifling. Saying you can drive a bullet up to "X" speed begs the question, with what barrel length? It isn't the speed that spoils the bullet; it's the peak pressure getting too high.

I recommend you get a copy of Lee's Modern Reloading, 2nd Edition. He walks you through the hardness levels needed to avoid distortion at different pressures.

Mind you, distortion isn't always a bad thing. F.W. Mann shot pure lead bullets molded to bore diameter and let black powder's rapid pressure rise upset them out into the rifling to obturate the bore. He got some good results this way, though you do need to be able to place the bullet in the rifling ahead of the powder charge to make it work. The other example commonly mentioned is that revolver barrels with a constriction where they screw into the revolver frame will often lead less and shoot better with a soft bullet because the pressure is able to upset it outward again after it passes through the constriction, whereas it is necessary to lap the constriction out to get hard cast bullets through the same revolver without gas cutting the bases, increasing leading and unbalancing the bullet. The soft let does require the bore surface to be smooth, though.

I'll also point out that because those bullets have been made in a standard mold, they still have lube grooves, and if you feel you need more velocity you can always add lube to them on top of the coating if you have a lubricator/sizer. If you don't, you can still coat them with Lee's Liquid Alox. Having a coating of the Liquid Alox may help protect the coating from hotter powders.
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Old October 8, 2017, 05:27 PM   #7
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The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook , edition #4. Uncoated standard cast bullet data can be used for coated. The coating is just "paint" not a hard jacket or a thinner or softer plating.
Coated bullets are lead with a different type lubricant.
1500 fps loads out of a revolver are... exciting ? I don't load them that hot anymore but 2400 would be the powder for them.
The little 1 caliper 1 book manual has just about all the data taken from other manuals and all published in one handy book. The Lyman manual has a lot of other info on many other aspects of loading cast bullets and casting...great to have.
Get both and you will be all set .
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Old October 8, 2017, 05:42 PM   #8
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Quote:
I can't find much in any of my manuals in terms of loads that could accomplish this (1500 f/s) with lead load data
Just because a bullet manufacturer says you can get to 1500 f/s doesn't mean you should

Aside from that, do you really need to go 1500 f/s?

Speer's lead data states "these are not to max velocity" or words to that effect. Their lead offerings are soft swaged lead and are generally not meant to be pushed real hard; so they cap their data at roughly 1000 f/s.

The subject of loading/shooting lead slugs is huge. Opinions and experiences abound. For me, I have a number of S&W 38 & 357 guns and I have always found shooting lead to be problematic in terms of barrel and cylinder throat leading. I've fire lapped all my revolvers (which definitely helped), but haven't slugged them (I don't see the point). In the past 34 years I've loaded and shot every bullet, powder, hardness, diameter combination one can imagine - and they all - all - lead the barrels and cylinder throats. Some more than others; but you'd think at some point, I'd be able to hit the right combination of minimal leading - and haven't. Lead leads - period. One of the worst btw, was the SNS 148gn coated DEWC - it'll lay down lead in my 38 gun from breech to muzzle in about 50 rounds.

I still shoot lead. And I actually like it. Lead is accurate. I just spend the back end of my shooting day with plated and/or jacketed and clean-up is then a breeze. I shoot quite a bit of lead in 38 Special, but gave up with 357 Mag. And 45 ACP has been wonderful. I have a Colt 1911 that leads next to nothing; and when it does, it scrubs right out. It's awesome.

I didn't mean to get off on a tangent. My embedded point is that everybody's experience with shooting lead slugs is their own. Mine obviously has left some to be desired. Other's will tell you glowing examples how they shoot their lead slugs to hyper-velocities with no leading whatsoever - hey, it's on the interweb - must be true.

It's okay to gather advice and information. But at the end of the day, you'll need to create your own experiences.

Good luck.
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Old October 8, 2017, 06:07 PM   #9
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Well the bullets I purchased have what appears to be lube in them. There's a blue ring inside the groove. So I guess they are lubed and coated? Here's a link to the website.

http://www.snscasting.com/bullet-information/

I have no desire to reach 1500 fps with my GP100 becuase I'm sure they would not be much fun to practice with. But it seems they would be able to go faster than the 1000 fps that seems pretty standard load data wise. I was hoping to get somewhere between 1200 and 1300. I purchased the little book recommended to me and also ordered the Lyman boom mentioned earlier. I feel I need to sit down amd study this a little harder before getting too far along. Thank you all for the info. I'm gonna try the lighter loads for some experience and hold off on the more powerful ones for now.
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Old October 8, 2017, 06:34 PM   #10
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SNS sells both wax lubed cast and coated. I do not see where they offer bullets with both treatments.
Surely you can look at your bullets and tell naked gray lead from the various colors of coating they offer.

Lyman shows the most loads with cast bullets. 1200 fps ought not to be hard, but you will have to find a suitable powder. H110 is a suitable high velocity powder. It is not a suitable reduced load powder.

The original .357 Magnum claimed 1510 fps with a lead bullet; but that was the particular Winchester/Sharpe pattern bullet out of an 8 3/4" barrel

Last edited by Jim Watson; October 8, 2017 at 06:40 PM.
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Old October 8, 2017, 06:39 PM   #11
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Quote:
Well the bullets I purchased have what appears to be lube in them. There's a blue ring inside the groove. So I guess they are lubed and coated?
If they have the blue ring, they are a bare lead alloy with a lubricant in the groove - they are not coated. I have used your actual bullet - the SNS 158 LSWC (non-coated) It's a great bullet. In 357 Mag, I got them to about 1150 f/s through my 4" Smith model 686, using HS-6 (a mild, cool burning propellant - excellent for lead). Past 1150, leading got atrocious. I later just reserved them for 38 Special - they shoot wonderful under 4.2 grains of W231.

Quote:
I have no desire to reach 1500 fps with my GP100
My inference. Apologies.

Quote:
because I'm sure they would not be much fun to practice with.
No. They'd certainly be a handful at 1500

Quote:
But it seems they would be able to go faster than the 1000 fps
Yeah, that's not an unrealistic expectation at all.

Quote:
I was hoping to get somewhere between 1200 and 1300.
Might be a little ambitious from a leading standpoint, but you don't know until you've tried.
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Old October 8, 2017, 06:54 PM   #12
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That clears some of it up. I have never seen a coated bullet so I wasn't sure if it was a clear coat type deal that may be all but invisible or if it was a glaringly obvious coating. So I apologize for that.

Nick,
Don't apologize to me. I didn't make my intentions very clear. No apology necessary. I was just clarifying.

I'll have to do some experimenting and maybe get some different powders. I figured I'd save some money by getting lead since I'm on a pretty tight budget. Spent alot of savings on an engagement ring recently. Guess I'll have to suck it up and work a little more overtime til I can get a little more experienced and figure out exactly what I need with lead.
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Old October 8, 2017, 06:56 PM   #13
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I'll keep loading my jsp's with H110 and do some experimenting with lead and unique or whatever else I can get my hands on.
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Old October 8, 2017, 06:58 PM   #14
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Nick,

You also mentioned that you shoot jacketed after lead. That helps with the cleaning afterward? It just helps scrape it out or what dya mean?
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Old October 8, 2017, 07:08 PM   #15
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Quote:
It just helps scrape it out or what dya mean?
Basically, yeah. It cleans the barrel. It's generally considered to be not good practice.

But it's a practice I've been doing for over three decades. I've got about 20,000 rounds through my 4" 686 - I'll let you know when it stops shooting straight.

For clarity: I tend to shoot maybe 30 -40 rounds of lead, followed by a cylinder or two of plated/jacketed. Repeat. The last 4 to half-dozen cylinders for the day are also plated/jacketed. So the way I do it, there is never a lot of build-up to begin with. This practice has saved me countless hours of barrel scrubbing.
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Old October 8, 2017, 07:14 PM   #16
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Jim,

I was misreading that page. I assumed that "bullet information" page applied to all their bullets. I see now I grossly misunderstood.

I'll keep these bullets in the more acceptable load range and maybe some day get some gas checked bullets or something to run at faster velocities.
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Old October 8, 2017, 08:05 PM   #17
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Their site is not real clear.
I had to look a lot and I knew what to look for.
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Old October 8, 2017, 08:10 PM   #18
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Kwik
It's been mentioned some above, but the data in the Hornady and speer manuals are for the swaged soft lead bullets they make.

Their data is not for your cast bullets.....neither Hornady or Speer make cast bullets.

When you get your Lyman's manual, look up the data for Lyman's mold number #358311.
It shows as a 160 grain bullets.....but it's good data for your 158 swc's

It has loads for your H110.

The One Book has data for the same mold, but it shows as 158 grain and the data is fairly different.

Personally I'm a 2400 fan....with 13 grains ...for cast 158 grain swc's.

I only use H110 in M1-30 Carbine. Hopefully others can help you out with a starting load ...3% or 10% reduction from max and using magnum primers

On the flip side, you could get Hornady's or Speer's swaged lead bullets and use their data for your Unique powder.
5 grains of Unique with swaged lead 158 grain swc's is a classic load.
I can't beat the small groups at 25 yards with any other load combination.

Have fun....

Last edited by Billglass; October 8, 2017 at 08:30 PM.
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Old October 8, 2017, 08:32 PM   #19
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Appreciate the insight Bill. I just finished loading up a few ranging from the minimum to the maximum from my Hornady book with Unique. I'm trying one slightly warmer load with the Unique that I found in a buddy's copy of The One Book(borrowing it in the mean time). I'm gonna try em out tomorrow after work if all goes as planned. I'm already anxious to get the Lyman manual.
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Old October 8, 2017, 09:22 PM   #20
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Unique plays well with lead.
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Old October 9, 2017, 06:56 AM   #21
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I too handload for the GP100. Awesome revolver once you lighten up the trigger pull !

Some of my data :

My full bang load is 16.5 gr of H110 with a cast 158 gr SWC. I'm at about 1260 fps. Your not going to squeeze much more velocity out of this combo as lack of more case capacity will be the issue.

My lighter load is 13 gr of 2400 with the same cast 158 SWC and that shoots about 1110 fps. If you really want to load up higher velocities you can do this with 2400, but use prudent discretion.

H110 is a ball magnum powder that needs to be loaded to near max case capacity or you could experience incomplete burns. I also suggest magnum primers.

2400 is an awesome versatile magnum powder that can be easily downloaded to suit your needs. Good luck, the GP100 is a rugged and very accurate shooter. LOVE mine !
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Old October 9, 2017, 07:10 AM   #22
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Road clam,

I have the identical load using sierra jsp's. It's superbly accurate. I did experience what you were describing with lesser charges of this powder. Groups went bad and i was getting so much unburnt powder that whenever I'd eject my brass it would leave some under the ejector star and near lock up the cylinder when I'd close it if I didn't remember to check. What bullets do you use(self cast or storebought)? Any problems with leading?
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Old October 9, 2017, 10:17 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwik2010
Road clam,

I have the identical load using sierra jsp's. It's superbly accurate. I did experience what you were describing with lesser charges of this powder. Groups went bad and i was getting so much unburnt powder that whenever I'd eject my brass it would leave some under the ejector star and near lock up the cylinder when I'd close it if I didn't remember to check. What bullets do you use(self cast or storebought)? Any problems with leading?
I like Missouri Bullets. Use them in many calibers. Awesome bullets and good prices. No leading issues at all. Leading usually stems from improper bullet dia for your barrel. With hard cast a snug fit is better than loose. Gas blow by from improper bullet expansion and sealing melts the lead and sticks to your barrel. leading can also occur from not using any lube. I'm no cast expert but this is what's been explained to me.

Here's my .357's :
http://missouribullet.com/details.ph...y=10&keywords=
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Old October 9, 2017, 10:21 AM   #24
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Kwik2010,

A couple of resources you should be aware of:

One is the Cast Boolits board where you will find mountains of detailed information.

Another is the Los Angeles Silhouette Club site, which also has a lot of cast bullet information and, in particular, has a free download of Glenn Fryxell's book available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwik2010
You also mentioned that you shoot jacketed after lead. That helps with the cleaning afterward? It just helps scrape it out or what dya mean?
As Nick mentioned, this is not considered good practice. There are two reasons: One is that a heavy layer of lead fouling will raise pressure and some instances of barrel bulging have been noted. The other, and this from someone who gave up the practice, is that it didn't actually seem to clean the barrel. Rather it just ironed a lot of the lead flat and burnished it into the bore surface rather than shooting it out. I could push a few patches through afterward and the bore would look smooth and shiny, but if I then ran a brush through I would see all these dull patches all over where the brush had scruffed up the surface of the patch-polished lead.

An experiment I keep meaning to try is to turn off a jacketed bullet ogive and give the end of the bearing surface a negative sharp edged cup profile and to shoot that through a leaded bore and capture it to see if the edge chisels any of the lead off. But a rounded bullet ogive seems mainly just to burnish lead into the bore surface.

A good lead cleaner for me has been the Wipe Out No-Lead. You wet the bore and chambers with it and let it sit for an hour and the lead turns dark and crumbly and then just patches out easily.
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Old October 9, 2017, 05:39 PM   #25
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Noted. I'll get some lead cleaner. Went and shot a few loads tonight. 4.7 grains of unique seemedto be the most accurate but I was also shooting from a tailgate in the wind so I'm gonna load up the same batches and try again this weekend when I can get some more control on the environment. But they were definitely pleasant to shoot. I could shoot all day with any of them loads and still be begging to pull the trigger again. Even if I don't get comfortable enough to load up some hardcast screamers I'm definitely going to keep a bunch of lead on hand for some good old tin can fun. Thank you all for the info you've given me.
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