Carrying 1911 in condition 2

[Stats Shooter]

When I was in the Navy, we had 4 conditions of readiness for pistols.

Condition 4: Unloaded (no mag, no round in chamber)

Condition 3: Full mag inserted, no round chambered, hammer down

Condition 2: (Only applicable to 1911 single action pistols) Mag inserted, round chambered, hammer down.

Condition 1: Round chambered, mag inserted, hammer cocked, thumb safety on. (hammer down on DA pistols)

Then unofficially condition 0: Safety off ready to fire.

I am new to 1911's, but understand how they work internally. Why does everyone frown on carrying in condition 2?

Everything I read says carry in condition 1 or 3 but not 2. Some claim condition 3 is better than 2 because the slide is easier to pull back than the hammer but I disagree. And eith practice it could become 2nd nature. Also, condition 2 allows you to carry +1 more round over condition 3.

The only issue I see is that there is no decocking mechanism so you have to carefully drop the hammer but as but beyond that what's the problem?

Of course condition 1 is best for most situational carry options, but I can see where someone might prefer condition 2.

[Tacticool1976]

Ok, this is what i do, when i carry my 1911..... i always carry in condition 1....

i also practice drawing and flipping my thumb down on the safety at the same time i draw...

As for doing condition 3 ? you are asking for a crap load of flak..... so now when you draw you have to rack the slide and then aim, instead of just drawing and aiming....

and for condition 2...... i dont even think that would work in 1911's since they are a single action trigger, not a DA/SA style trigger.....

[Tacticool1976]

as for the not having a de-cocker.... if i am carrying mine, i dont even worry about dropping the hammer..... when i am not carrying my 1911, i drop the mag, then always rack the slide to eject the bullet, and then pull the trigger to drop the hammer and then put the gun away... i know some people drop the hammer but the chances of a ND is possible with a round in the chamber.....

[Cirdan]

There are two arguments for not carrying in Condition 2:

1) You'll have to manually cock the hammer in order to fire.

2) In order to get it into condition 2, you'll have to (carefully) drop the hammer on a live round. That can be hard on your flooring (or walls).

Given that, why not carry in condition 1? It's a lot easier to thumb the safety off than cocking the hammer.

[Koda94]

Originally Posted by Stats Shooter

When I was in the Navy, we had 4 conditions of readiness for pistols.

Condition 4: Unloaded (no mag, no round in chamber)

Condition 3: Full mag inserted, no round chambered, hammer down

Condition 2: (Only applicable to 1911 single action pistols) Mag inserted, round chambered, hammer down.

Condition 1: Round chambered, mag inserted, hammer cocked, thumb safety on. (hammer down on DA pistols)

Then unofficially condition 0: Safety off ready to fire.

I am new to 1911's, but understand how they work internally. Why does everyone frown on carrying in condition 2?

Everything I read says carry in condition 1 or 3 but not 2. Some claim condition 3 is better than 2 because the slide is easier to pull back than the hammer but I disagree. And eith practice it could become 2nd nature. Also, condition 2 allows you to carry +1 more round over condition 3.

The only issue I see is that there is no decocking mechanism so you have to carefully drop the hammer but as but beyond that what's the problem?

Of course condition 1 is best for most situational carry options, but I can see where someone might prefer condition 2.

(Condition 2 is not, only applicable to 1911 single action pistols, DA semi auto pistols are designed to be carried that way).
The problem is "2nd nature" is always prone to human error... carrying a 1911 in condition 2 is not safe to lower the hammer on a live round in a single action pistol, (and another problem is having to cock the pistol when you need it). I cant think of any reason to lower the hammer on a live round with a 1911 when it has a safety lock that completely locks out the pistol. What is the problem with using the safety lock and carrying condition 1?

[Aguila Blanca]

Question:

Originally Posted by Stats Shooter

]I am new to 1911's, but understand how they work internally. Why does everyone frown on carrying in condition 2?

Answer:

Originally Posted by Cirdan

There are two arguments for not carrying in Condition 2:

1) You'll have to manually cock the hammer in order to fire.

2) In order to get it into condition 2, you'll have to (carefully) drop the hammer on a live round.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Tacticool1976

and for condition 2...... i dont even think that would work in 1911's since they are a single action trigger, not a DA/SA style trigger.....

It works, if you practice enough.

Google "Israeli draw"

[chaim]

Apparently Condition 2 is how the military first required soldiers to carry the 1911. However, the original design and today's designs are different. The original had a longer hammer spur while today's mostly have a shorter, and often rounded trigger spur. Cocking it in a high stress situation is less likely to be successful than it used to be. Also, many of the Army's experienced troops would have had experience with single action pistols (either in the Army or in their private or civilian lives) so having to cock before shooting was a natural and familiar movement. That isn't the case for most of us today. Personally, I want to be able to go into action if needed with the least movement and as quickly as possible, thus, condition 1.

[JoeSixpack]

I'd carry them Con1, It's got a thumb and a grip safety.. I see no point in carrying it in any other manner.

[Chui]

No rational reason (AT ALL) to carry a 1911 in any condition other than Condition One.


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[CDW4ME]

I carry 1911 condition 1
If not condition 1 carry something else, Glock.

[cw308]

I use to carry in condition 2 but now carry in condition 3 . I know it a crazy world , if I'm not in a bad area or a combat zone I rather carry in a safer condition . Walking around with the mindset of locked and cocked to me isn't the best way to carry a 1911all the time. If your in your own business dealing with the public or like I mentioned before then yes condition 1 or a revolver.

[Chui]

Originally Posted by cw308

I use to carry in condition 2 but now carry in condition 3 . I know it a crazy world , if I'm not in a bad area or a combat zone I rather carry in a safer condition . Walking around with the mindset of locked and cocked to me isn't the best way to carry a 1911all the time. If your in your own business dealing with the public or like I mentioned before then yes condition 1 or a revolver.

Then don't carry...


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[WVsig]

If you want to carry hammer down on a 1911 or no round chambered pick a different platform. The gun was design to be carried that way in the military for many reasons but as a concealed handgun role it is not the best method. Condition 1 is the best way to carry a modern 1911. Condition 2 is slow and will require you to cock the hammer which is less consistent than thumbing a safety IMHO.

If you ever need to use that gun in a defensive scenario it will happen fast. It will take less time than you think it will for an attacker to be on you and prevent you from cocking a hammer or racking a slide. In a high % of defensive shootings shots are taking with the strong hand only point shooting with no sights. This is because too often most people are caught unaware and are barely able to clear leather.

If you have to cock the hammer or rack the slide after clearing leather you will be unlikely to be able to do either even if you are fast. If you are not comfortable with cocked and locked pick a striker fired or DA/SA platform and train accordingly.

[Chui]

^^ Bingo!




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[WVsig]

Originally Posted by Chui

^^ Bingo!




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PS "The 1911 chambered in 45 ACP is the world's finest close quarter combat weapon, and king of the feedway stoppages.”- Ken Hackathorn

[Chui]

Originally Posted by WVsig

PS "The 1911 chambered in 45 ACP is the world's finest close quarter combat weapon, and king of the feedway stoppage”- Ken Hackathorn

All the more reason to not rely on feeding the pistol manually during a terrifying moment...


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[Stats Shooter]

If you have to cock the hammer or rack the slide after clearing leather you will be unlikely to be able to do either even if you are fast. If you are not comfortable with cocked and locked pick a striker fired or DA/SA platform and train accordingly.

As the OP on this thread....I personally have no reservations carrying cocked and locked. The 1911 has more safety features cocked and locked than a striker fired pistol. You have a grip and thumb safety, a glock or similar striker pistol has only that little trigger depression safety. A glock is essentially carried condition zero.

I just asked the question to this crowd which mimics the disdane by others for carrying condition 2.

[cw308]

I have been in situations , there is a time and place to carry that way as I mentioned. I have no children living in my home most of the time and when it's just my wife an I , the gun is out on the night table. I know where my gun is at all times . If you carry in condition 1 that's fine better know how to handle it. I carry most of the time in condition 3 . I'm not saying your wrong as long as your trained an practice in that condition . Even in war , when you return to base camp you remove the chambered round. In the States your not out side the wire. Just be aware and know how to react . Locked & cocked won't help if your frozen in position . Don't relay on your imagination. Be Safe out there.

[WVsig]

Originally Posted by cw308

I have been in situations , there is a time and place to carry that way as I mentioned. I have no children living in my home most of the time and when it's just my wife an I , the gun is out on the night table. I know where my gun is at all times . If you carry in condition 1 that's fine better know how to handle it. I carry most of the time in condition 3 . I'm not saying your wrong as long as your trained an practice in that condition . Even in war , when you return to base camp you remove the chambered round. In the States your not out side the wire. Just be aware and know how to react . Locked & cocked won't help if your frozen in position . Don't relay on your imagination. Be Safe out there.

Good luck with that. Carrying a gun in different situations in different conditions is a recipe for disaster. IMHO. Choose a platform and carry it or leave it on the nightstand it in the same condition all the time. Why would you vary it?

You need to run some Tueller Drills. 1.5 seconds is all it takes to close a 7 yard gap. I doubt you are going to be able to draw/retrieve the gun and rack a slide, present it a fire in 1.5 seconds. I don't care how you train. I do not believe that I am the one who is relying on their imagination in this conversation.

[Stats Shooter]

You need to run some Tueller Drills. 1.5 seconds is all it takes to close a 7 yard gap. I doubt you are going to be able to draw/retrieve the gun and rack a slide, present it a fire in 1.5 seconds. I don't care how you train. I do not believe that I am the one who is relying on their imagination in this conversation.

If practiced, the Israeli draw from condition 3 is nearly as fast as condition 1. And, with an Israeli draw style need not worry about the thumb safety. You are racking as you raise the gun. If practiced, it can be very fast. Also, in condition two, you could train to sweep the hammer rather than sweep the safety.

My only concern is that modern 1911 hammers do not have a big enough spur, like my revolvers, to easily do it every single time.

Like I said, I will carry it condition 1, I just think with proper practice and training, condition 2 would be fine also.

[cw308]

What ever way you are comfortable that's fine . Don't want to get into a pissing contest here just what works for me.

Chris

[RickB]

The original had a longer hammer spur

The original M1911 had a short, wide hammer spur. The army decided they wanted a hammer that was easier to thumb cock, so the spur was lengthened about three-sixteenths, creating the condition known as hammer bite in the process.

[Slamfire]

I went to the local Cabelas in Dec and saw these RIA GI pistols on sale for $399 so I had to play with the display model. The thing was tight and the trigger was good. It took several more days to talk myself into buying it, plus I had a $100 gift card, but I did. Cabelas let me pick the best out of three, the one I picked was amazingly tight, no play between slide and frame, barrel hood tight, barrel bushing to barrel tight. I wish the barrel bushing was a tighter fit in the slide but, my Les Baer was $1000 more, so, I can't complain. The trigger is short, like the original, and that is what I want. I have short stubby fingers and I replaced most of the long triggers on the 1911's I own.






The tiny original front sights don't bother me too much, I won't be target shooting with this thing. This is a point and shoot combat gun.

I was looking for a thumb cocking M1911. I want to carry my M1911 with a round in the chamber and the hammer down. This was the way the pistol was designed, this was how it was carried, round in the chamber, hammer down, in the flap holster. I do not like that thumb safety. Too many times with extended safeties and ambidextrous safeties I have found the safety "off" when I thought it was on, and, worse of all, firing my Les Baer, the safety bumped to "On". I watched one of those Top Gun shows and that happened to a Delta Force/Cop/Competitor types. He accidentally bumped the safety on and it took time for him to puzzle out what was going on. A Bullseye bud of mine, has seen this a number of times at the indoor range he manages. Accidental discharges caused the Army to change the condition of carry from round in the chamber, hammer down, to round in the chamber, safety on, pistol in flap holster. There were still too many accidental discharges and you find that the SOP by the time you get to Vietnam was that you were not allowed to put a magazine in your M1911 until your boots were on the ground in the drop zone! I put my middle finger between the hammer and slide when lowering the hammer. I put my index finger on the hammer spur and my middle finger in front of the hammer. I jam the hammer with my middle finger and pull the trigger. I slide the middle finger out, like a wedge, lowering the hammer, at some point the middle finger is completely out and I use my index finger to lower the hammer all down. I do not use my thumb to lower the hammer because I have had the hammer slip off the thumb.

What I do is similar to what this guy is doing, except I place the middle finger of the left hand between the hammer and frame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-URBrinve3A


Anyway, the early 1911 configuration, which was before this 1911A1 version, had wide hammer spurs and a virtually non existent grip safety tang. The pistol was designed to be thumb cocked and those features made it real easy, like Colt SAA easy, to thumb cock a first generation 1911. After WW1, the grip safety was elongated and the spurs disappeared, but still, the 1911A1 version is a lot easier to thumb cock than this, with its beavertail, and I don't cut my fingers on the Bomar style rear sight.




When I first took my RIA to the range it would eject the magazines. The magazine release was too shallow, I called RIA, they sent me a replacement, it works fine. I have about 400 rounds of hardball and 200 LSWC through the thing and it feeds, goes bang, shoots to the point of aim.


It is being carried in the holster, round in the chamber, hammer down, strap over the hammer. If I need it, I have to pull it out and thumb cock it before firing. That is not a problem for me. I practiced a lot of thumb cocking with my SAA, and I think I can remember to do it in a stress full situation. You know, if you could reload the SAA quickly, it would make a very compact, powerful, self defense pistol. I consider the 45 L Colt an even better round than the 45 ACP.



The US Army, particularly the horse Cavalry were familiar with thumb cocking their Colt SAA's, and did not consider it dangerous. The horse Cavalry wanted a safety so they could make the pistol safe if the horse got uncontrollable, and a safety that could be applied "On" or "Off" with only one hand. But, since the Leatherslap days of the 1950's, American's have gotten used to carrying these pistols cocked and locked, and that is something I don't feel safe around.

[WVsig]

Originally Posted by Stats Shooter

If practiced, the Israeli draw from condition 3 is nearly as fast as condition 1. And, with an Israeli draw style need not worry about the thumb safety. You are racking as you raise the gun. If practiced, it can be very fast. Also, in condition two, you could train to sweep the hammer rather than sweep the safety.

My only concern is that modern 1911 hammers do not have a big enough spur, like my revolvers, to easily do it every single time.

Like I said, I will carry it condition 1, I just think with proper practice and training, condition 2 would be fine also.

Show me a modern defensive pistol trainer who favors the 1911 platform that recommends using something other than condition 1. I am interested who besides people on forums are advocating this form of carry. Isrealis don't carry 1911s. LOL

Larry Vickers? Ken Hackathorn? Gunsite? Thunder Ranch? Bill Wilson?