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February 2, 2018, 08:33 AM | #26 | |
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People who weren't present should be very hesitant to criticize a 'win' based on what they *think* happened. This was a win. Larry
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February 2, 2018, 12:23 PM | #27 | |||||||||
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Well, This should be fun to watch---
We all know the clerk was right, because we're able see the past. REMOVE THAT FROM YOUR MIND and operate from the premise that you can only base you judgment on the facts KNOWN TO THE CLERK AT THE TIME OF THE INCIDENT. She had moments to make a decision that we get to talk about forever, should we choose. I'm just paying devil's advocate for the OP here. I am also totally miffed by some of the statements. Quote:
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February 2, 2018, 12:37 PM | #28 | ||
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One can hand over the cash, take two steps back, and still be in the same defensive position he or she was prior to handing over the cash. Quote:
Handing over the cash does not magically nullify your defensive position nor does it advocate your right to take further action, including drawing a firearm, if handing over the cash does not work. |
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February 2, 2018, 01:04 PM | #29 | |
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That judgment would best hinge upon whether the defender can realistically employ deadly force without being seriously harmed When one is being robbed by an armed person, the time to "diffuse the situation" has passed. |
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February 2, 2018, 01:24 PM | #30 | |
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February 2, 2018, 02:44 PM | #31 |
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My position on this, based on what we've been told, is it sounds like the woman at the counter made the correct judgement that the cash would end the encounter. It did with no one hurt, the criminal in custody and the money recovered.
Would arming herself been a better choice? We don't know. Since the gun was in the register and not on her it may be a moot point. Did she have the skills necessary? Had the robber come over or around the counter could she have successfully used her handgun? Again we don't know. If I was in the clerk's position would I have drawn my weapon? How much distance was between me and the knife? We're there others in the store? What was my assessment of the idiot with the knife? Being situationally aware is not as simple as some would like to believe. I know my skills and trust my instincts. If handing over the cash ends the threat I'm good with that, if not so be it. There are no one size fits all answers to self-defense and the use of deadly force. Threaten me with a knife when I have my family to protect and my response will likely be very different than if I'm behind the counter at the 7-11. And for the record, inaction is sometimes the right choice.
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February 2, 2018, 03:44 PM | #32 | |||||
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February 2, 2018, 03:52 PM | #33 |
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I also get to make these decisions where I work, prior to an incident, with clear thoughts. Should someone demand the money in the drawer while holding a knife I am setting the money on the counter, leaving the drawer open, and taking a few steps back.
Doing so does not preclude me from drawing a weapon if the aggressor does not leave. My point is handing the cash over does not make the situation worse. If it fails to appease the robber you can STILL escalate from there. There seems to be some type of argument that handing over the cash precludes me from escalating the response later should it be unsuccessful in ending the situation. It does not. |
February 2, 2018, 04:05 PM | #34 | |
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In THIS particular story, her stating she wasn't in fear makes it the wrong move for HER, but not in general. Folks here are talking about how wrong it would be based on facts that have already unfolded. That's cheating. If you give me the answers to the test a day early, I'll get a perfect score too. The fact remains that that IF she would have been in fear of being injured or killed, arming herself would not have been wrong. If we could all see 5 minutes into the future and KNOW ahead of time that we were making the right choices, the world would be a different place. If you could see that turning over the money would guarantee the safe passage of the incident, and you chose a different path, you're a fool. But alas, you CAN'T see that, so you don't know which path to take, so you can't possibly say it's wrong.
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February 2, 2018, 04:14 PM | #35 |
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I think I am getting confused as to what the argument is. I guess my flow chart goes like this
You have been presented with the threat of force and compliance is demanded Does compliance worsen your tactical situation? If no comply. If yes reevaluate If it is possible to strengthen your tactical position while complying without escalation do so. Did compliance work to alleviate the threat? If yes report to the proper authorities. If no reevaluate. Now if I'm the only person there and ten feet behind the counter compliance would weaken my position by bringing me closer to the threat. Not gonna do that. |
February 2, 2018, 04:23 PM | #36 | ||
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February 2, 2018, 04:42 PM | #37 | |||||
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Of course, the same thing applies to drawing a weapon. Quote:
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Compliance may be the thing to do, if trying to stop the robber with force would be too risky under the circumstances. |
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February 3, 2018, 08:33 PM | #38 |
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Wow, for once my reply has increased forum replies! This might be a good forum to be on....
Some background I might should have added: *Her counter is unusual, it's not against a wall, it's in the center of the store with two registers opposite each other separated by 6 to 8 feet. The counter is only broken at the back wall and the counter forms a bulged "U" shape with the bottom of the U towards the front door and registers at the 3 and 9 O'Clock positions. The counter is slightly less than waist high or as high as a kitchen counter. There is no glass, wall, cage, etc. *Such things are unknown here, even at the pharmacy. I got the impression the firearm was at the other register, just an impression, she was not specific. Something in her body language suggested that to me. That's assuming there was a firearm....she might have just said that. My thinking and training when it comes to facing a serious threat: If an assailant has the ability, motive, and opportunity to cause grave or lethal harm, the time for discussion has ended. In this case, that ended the moment the knife was shown. The sooner an attacker is resisted the more likely the encounter will end favorably. Resistance is most likely to be successful when it's overwhelming. Why should we trust the man to behave himself? He's already shown a lack of rational thinking by committing armed robbery and threatening to kill the clerk. 849ASCO hit upon that and this point very well, a lot of people can get over a kitchen counter. The clerk did not describe the assailant's body type. I will assume "meth-head skinny." I don't think there are many obese robbers around here....if so they must be very good at their craft. With this in mind, I'm interested why no one has mentioned the Tueller Drill. Anyone familiar with that is going to want to put as much distance as possible between themselves and the threat, not move closer, distract themselves by opening drawers and grabbing cash (which would also occupy the gun hand), etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill I also tried to look at this event without knowing outcome, anything else defeats the purpose of the discussion. Further, I'm a very alert person by design and when I worked stop and robs I was even more so. I would know if he had a friend along or not. I incorporated multiple assailants into my "rules of engagement" planning as well. My reload was the "New York" variety. I don't know if this has been mentioned or not, but there are many "right" answers to this situation but we can't test any, only discuss it. Last edited by In The Ten Ring; February 3, 2018 at 09:01 PM. |
February 4, 2018, 11:56 AM | #39 | |
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I am not going to draw on a strung out kid with a knife under his sleeve, who is separated from me by a physical barrier, unless I have to. I am also not going to play cop and try to disarm and hold him until police arrive. If he gives me no choice I will draw and use my weapon until he stops his attack. If he takes the money and leaves that is a successful encounter in my opinion.
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February 4, 2018, 02:12 PM | #40 |
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I'm confused. Where in the clerk's story was the assailant described as "strung out" or a "kid?"
I don't consider a countertop as a "barrier." Walls and fences are "barriers" while countertops are "obstacles." I cannot consider myself "fit" at the moment but I know for a fact I can still hop over a countertop in less than a second, perhaps faster if I was upset over something. There are many cases and youtube videos, of attackers being shot and still managing to stab their victims. See Tueller Drill. Now, one could have opened the drawer, said "have at it" and backed away towards the back wall, ready to draw.....one could advocate that option, in this particular case. If the robber hopped the counter, now being on the same side as the clerk.......the clerk is going to get a bit more nervous. |
February 4, 2018, 03:12 PM | #41 | ||||
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February 4, 2018, 03:17 PM | #42 |
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Ten ring your confusion is that in spite of your great experience and exceptional alertness, I disagree with your preconceived action plan.
I'm familiar with Tueller and how fast things happen in an encounter and you may be right that the robber wasn't a strung out kid. Neither of which change my view of using lethal force unless it is required.
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February 4, 2018, 03:34 PM | #43 | |||
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February 4, 2018, 05:33 PM | #44 |
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Neither of which change my view of using lethal force unless it is required.
Where have I typed "I would have shot," based on what the clerk told me, and I stated in my first reply? Drawing and pointing is not the same as "using lethal force." It hasn't been mentioned but maybe this is where some confusion lies---much CCW training includes "if you have to draw you have to fire" based on the assumption that the only reason to draw is to counter an immediate lethal force threat. I don't believe that is good advice as many threats can be stopped without firing.....I realize we get into legal areas of "brandishing" and whether or not pointing is "lethal force" itself but if I can prevent my own injury or demise without harming the assailant I will do so, and worry about that silliness later (and charging the victim with brandishing in such a case would be silly). I think drawing and pointing would prevent the assailant making good on his threat to kill the clerk....it's the only thing realistically guaranteed to do so. Criminals should never be taken at their word. They are already untrustworthy, else, they wouldn't be criminals. |
February 4, 2018, 07:59 PM | #45 | |
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If one of the licensed trainers in TX said this, they would be removed.
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February 4, 2018, 08:00 PM | #46 |
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Ten ring I am not one who believes that drawing a weapon means that it must, or even should be used. Drawing and pointing a handgun is using lethal force by definition though, whether you believe it or not. You have brought into play force that "is readily capable of causing death or serious physical injury."
OldMarksman I'm not advocating hesitation or delay in a lethal attack. I clearly understand that the speed at which things can happen in a fight is shocking. I'm simply saying that what is the correct response in one situation may not be in another. I'm also saying that given the opportunity, I will avoid using lethal force even if a case can be made that it is, or would have been, justified.
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February 4, 2018, 08:43 PM | #47 |
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If that counter does not represent some type of obstacle (the point that calling it a barrier was incvorrect stands) then compliance may be even more called for. See the reference to the Tueller drill above. I’m not certain what compliance with the demand to hand over the cash costs the victim. He or she can tactically benefit his or her position by handing over the cash and backing up. It also gives the victim a moment to overcome the surprise of the threat. No drawing your gun does not mean you have to fire. Not drawing your gun also does not mean you cannot later. I’m not suggesting compliance such as moving to a secondary location, laying down, or even kneeling when confronted with a knife.
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February 4, 2018, 09:47 PM | #48 | ||
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A decision to not draw, and fire if necessary, would be appropriate if (1) the victim might be unlikely to prevail under the circumstances, or (2) indications are that drawing may result in increased risk to others, |
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February 5, 2018, 10:23 AM | #49 | |
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February 5, 2018, 11:33 AM | #50 | ||||
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There are times when compliance may be more prudent than resistance, but only when it appears likely that resistance might not represent a successful strategy. In such a circumstance, compliance just might prevent bodily harm...but there is absolutely no guarantee. I think you would likely benefit from a few session of quality FoF training in various scenarios. |
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