Open carry in Florida?

[GoOfY-FoOt]

Don't take this the wrong way, but, you should really open a history book, before you start citing historical anecdotes.

I say that we, as a people, were much more civilized then, than we are today. Somewhere, somehow, over the last 150 years, we have distorted too many facts about who we are. We have allowed others to dictate principle and massage facts to acheive their desired result.

Back during those times, a man with a gun, was just a man. If you took his gun away, he was no longer a man, but something else.

Inalienable rights have been eroded to the point that, by definition, they can't be called that anymore. And you think that now, we are more civilized?

I beg to differ.

[spacecoast]

Not only is it stupid and foolish but the main thing is that it is totally unnessarry for anyone in this day and age to walk around with a gun on their hip. We as a people have to understand what is going on in our society and how far we have come as civilized people and then just try to grasp on to those thoughts

It's not the civilized people we have to worry about.

[Japle]

I am just so sick of hearing about this Open Carry crap. We as gun owners should be concentrating 100% on holding on to our Gun Rights and forget about pushing this Open Carry Issue.

Open carry is a big part of the “right to keep and bear arms” movement. If you think it’s a bad idea, don’t do it, but a lot of us think we need to "push this open carry issue" in order to secure our Constitutional rights.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by AirFoil

No offense dude, but I was there. You were not.

They actually got into a shootout at the next place they robbed, in which at least one of them was killed.

No offense dude, but that's one instance. Basing all behavior, or all opinion, on the outcome of a singular event is not wise.

I'm not saying open carry is the way to go. I'm not saying concealed carry is the way to go. I'm saying there are good arguments for both.

Fact is, no one knows what those gang members would have done if they saw an open carrier.

They got into a shootout in the next place? With a concealed carrier? Maybe if he'd been open carrying they would have not robbed the place. Maybe if he had be open carrying they would have shot him first.

There is simply no way to know and thus no way to claim one method is better than the other.

[P5 Guy]

Has been around for a few years, right?
Can anyone verify an incident were an ordinary citizen, in the USA was targeted first during a crime?
There has been a much speculation as to what an anti-social person would do in the afore mentioned situation. Does open carry and, lets say wearing a photographer's vest, fanny pack or ugly baggy Hawaiian shirt make me or you a target?

[oden]

I agree with constantine,i was born in florida and the farther you go north in florida the more southern you get.
Miami is just a diffirent ball of wax .the cops stay out of some areas because the git shot at on any given night just for the hell of it.
To all you bad asses ill give you directions to git to opaloca,liberty city or little havana.
To injoy your tour go at mid day that way you can see who is lining up the bullseye that your open carry is the flashing light,there are many interesting people in these locations that cant be found in anyother city and im sure they will be glad to meet you.

[gyvel]

I lived in Miami from 1953 to 1989 and what Constantine stated was one of the main reasons why I left. I worked at Miami International Airport and had to endure being sniped at and stoned (having rocks and stones thrown at me on the expressway--ha ha) at night when I went work during the two famous riots in the 80's. This was pre Martinez, so getting a CCW was practically impossible, and were issued county by county anyway.

I travelled heavily armed (Hi-Power in glove box, AR 15 and Model 12 Winchester in trunk) when I went to work, lack of CCW notwithstanding. The standard joke at work was, if there was trouble, come see me to get armed.

Growing up in Miami in the 50s and 60s as a kid was really nice, but, sadly, it became the manure pile that it is today.

At any rate, I now live in a state where people are generally pleasant to one another (barring Phoenix and Tucson), gun laws are very liberal (in the good sense), and nobody freaks if I walk into Walmart wearing a gun on my hip or if it "prints" through my pants.

[jimjc]

I`m for gun rights period, I have a second home in Naples. Most of the year most people walk around in cutoffs and sandles, now I can see, down the middle of the Mall 5... 20 somthings walking with a big chest and their Glocks, and 1911`s and 454 casull`s strapped to their chests, Give me a friggen break........

You want to lose gun rights just have what I`ve stated above start happening all over this country.

[GoOfY-FoOt]

I`m for gun rights period, I have a second home in Naples. Most of the year most people walk around in cutoffs and sandles, now I can see, down the middle of the Mall 5... 20 somthings walking with a big chest and their Glocks, and 1911`s and 454 casull`s strapped to their chests, Give me a friggen break........

You want to lose gun rights just have what I`ve stated above start happening all over this country.

As has been stated, on here numerous times and backed up by governmental data, BG's don't carry openly. Not even where it is already legal.
How do you forsee this suddenly taking place here, when it hasn't anywhere else?
It comes down to the CHOICE, to carry openly or not, but to carry, nonetheless...

Me, personally, I don't want to wear two shirts and a belt, in mid-summer, in Florida. And I definitely don't want to leave home without it!!!

[publius42]

I'm surprised the history of open carry bans has not come up in this one. There were incidents.

May 2, 1967: About 30 armed Black Panther members entered the California legislature to protest consideration of outlawing the right of private citizens to bear arms. There was no violence, but the spectacle is well remembered and brought the group into public light..

Brought the group into public light and sent the guns into hiding. Like many prohibitions, this one is not so much about the objects as the people. You know the people I'm talking about. Other people. Those people. It should not surprise most here that this aspect of gun control has racist roots.

Wanna change the whole mood of that quotation above?

Feb 15, 2011: About 30 armed Second Amendment rights advocates entered the California legislature to protest consideration of yet another law restricting the right of private citizens to keep arms.

[Tactical Jackalope]

Oden & gyvel.


THANK YOU! For understanding and showing so publicly. Much appreciated. I'd pay $1,000 to someone that walks around open carry in Miami for one night and leaves in something that's not a body bag. This place is a zoo. Especially in those parts named above and a whole bunch of other ones. Soon enough it's all going to be a crap shoot.

[smoakingun]

If open carry were legal, would it be just one person on the street caring a pistol? Probably not. One person may be a target, dozens, would be a deturent(sp?).

[Tactical Jackalope]

So let's saddle up and gather a bunch of friends and go to a ghetto neighborhood looking cool with guns on our hips like we're cowboys and see if that also works. I'm sure it'll be fun!!!

[smoakingun]

A firearm is by far the best tool for protection, from both criminal and government alike. Apathy, and an unwillingness to protect not only ourselves, but also those around us is just one of several reasons that criminals have come to gain so much control. Our freedoms have been eroded a little at a time, and without revolution, have to be won back a little at a time. The world was no less civilized at our foundation than it is now, I would dare say it may be less. While technology has advanced, our sense of liberty and community has decayed. Maybe it is time to stand up for our selves and our communities and stop cowering in fear of the bad things that could happen

[Tactical Jackalope]

Or we can fight when we should and not attract it when uneeded. There is no need to fight for open carry or brag about openly carrying. Direct that attitude towards feeding the poor or something. We can STILL carry guns concealed. When that becomes threatened I'm 1,000% behind it. It's not THAT important to open carry.

[smoakingun]

It is not to say that open carry is always the best option, but it should be an option. There should be no restrictions on liberty, and I will stand up for all liberties because they are all worth it. The founders of this nation were willing to die for the smallest of liberties and to give in on any freedoms is to dishonor them and what they stood for

[Tactical Jackalope]

Or those who want to open carry in a big city should just become police officers. Seems that's what they want to feel like sometimes. Forgetting your life is on the line.

Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to open carry in the country..Small town, farm maybe, mountains. All that sounds awesome. In a city, the only ones who carry open are law enforcement officers and that's the way it should stay. Most federal agents I've seen even carry concealed.

Closest thing I have to the country down here is Krome Avenue and Homestead, drive 15 minutes and you're back where you started lol.

A darn GOOD fight would be if there was a ban in motion. Oh heavens will know we're fighting. Open carry is NOT that important to start a ruckus over. We have bigger issues. This Tuscon shooting was a reason to try and ban our firearms again. I think it's ridiculous. No criminal is going to follow to it. Just us, good guys.....maybe........maybe not But you know what I mean...


One step at a time.

[smoakingun]

Thats a pretty big assumption you are making there. I don't think I would assume that just because people want the ability to carry openly, that they want to be vigilanties. I think it would be safer to assume they just want the freedom to act as they feel is prudent.

Our founders believed that a man should posses all the privilages and responsibilities of his existance. A man would not thank the state for his success, of blame it for his faiures. A man should be respected in his person, his labor unmolested, and the fruits of his labor protected from unjust attack, under the law.

The law is the organization of the natural right of lawful self defense. It is the substitution of a common force for individual forces. And this force is to do only what what individual forces have a natural and lawful right to do: protect persons, liberties and property; to maintain the rights of each, to cause justice to reign over us all.

The problem we face is the complete perversion of the law. In todays world the law by no means confines itself to its proper function. It has exceeded its proper function. It has acted in oposition to its own purpose.The law has placed the collective at the disposal of the unscrupulus who exploit the liberty and property of others. It has converted plunder into a right, and lawful defense into a crime. It has been poluted by stupid greed, and false charity.

It is never the role of government to regulate my life. I should be free to defend my person and property in any way I see fit so long as it does not interfere with someone elses liberties. Me carrying a firearm out in the open in no way interferes with someone elses liberties, but restricting me from doing so intefers with mine, and so becomes, fo me, a right worth fighting for

[Tactical Jackalope]

Then if it's a reason for fighting for YOU...I stand by you brother.

Let it be an option. For those who want it. Don't wanna see hoodlums doing it though. -__-

[Tactical Jackalope]

The more rights we get as gun enthusiasts the better for us.

[Glenn Dee]

You guys DO understand that everyone enjoys the same rights. And that the hoodlum is in the eye of the beholder. I am personally for open carry. I would depend on the individual to be prudent, and use reasonable judgment when choosing to carry in the open. Yes everyone who can legally carry concieled will be able to carry in the open. Even people in the so called ghetto.

I truely believe the only significant change will be concieled carriers wont have to worry about someone peeping their rod, and having them arrested. Of course there will be those who will want to walk around like the old west heeled with iron. Sooner or later it will become pase...

As far as the suggestion of try being a cop?.... Well I did try it... Being a police Officer has very little to do with carrying a gun in the open. Thats a non-argument.

Open carry if nothing else empowers the people. And that in and of itself is a great thing.

[Tactical Jackalope]

Was that for me?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Ranting about crime in Miami is off topic for the thread. One chance to get back on it, or it's closed.

Your call. If folks want to discuss open carry, I'll let it go. If someone wants to continue the rant, they are gone.

[rwilson452]

Here in PA open carry has been allowed for a very long time. Yes, even in big cities. The only real problem is that some LEO agencies don't like it. They are being educated. Some are slow learners, others have gotten the message. I must admit I live in a primarily rural area. and don't get hassled for open carry even in the local university town. ( Mansfield). we have a very active open carry movement here in PA. Should you wish to follow this goto PAFOA.org

[rburch]

While I've done it a few times, I'm not a big fan of open carry. That said I think it's stupid not to allow it along with concealed carry.

It's pretty much always been legal here in Virginia, even in the cities, I've seen it maybe 5-6 times in my 28 years, and most of those were at "Open Carry Dinners" back before they allowed CCW in restaurants.

It's just not that common for some reason.


Now for my response to those that list all the reasons why open carry isn't a good idea. I do agree with you for the most part, just want to relate an example that shows that Open carry doesn't always make you the first target.

This is copied from the VCDL email newsletter from summer of 2009.

Involves a convenience store robbery/shooting, where the armed citizen that stopped the attack was open carrying a replica 1875 Remington Army .45 Long Colt with a 7 1/2 inch barrel.

Now obviously, this can't be used to claim bad guys don't notice open carry, but it's a good example to show that they don't always go for the OC guys first either.

************************************************** **************************
1. Exclusive: I met with the gun owner who saved lives in the
Richmond Golden Market shooting last week
************************************************** **************************

On Friday I received a surprise call from the gun owner who has been
in the press this week for saving lives at a Richmond store. The gun
owner used a replica 1875 Remington Army .45 Long Colt with a 7 1/2
inch barrel to stop a criminal who had shot the store's owner.

He wanted to remain anonymous, but called so that the story could be
set straight, as much of what was in the press wasn't accurate.

Board member Dennis O'Connor and I ended up meeting with him today
(Saturday) at the Golden Market store, where the shooting had taken
place one week earlier.

Besides being able to actually see the layout of the store, Dennis and
I got to see the security videos of the shooting!

We also got to meet the store owner who had been shot twice during the
hold up, but is now back at his store. More on this great man later.

Here is what we know from talking to the gun owner and watching the
videos:

The gun owner (GO) was in the store waiting in line to pay for an item
when the bad guy (BG) came in wearing dark sunglasses and trying to
coverup his face while brandishing a revolver. The BG yelled for
everyone to get down and before anybody could react, immediately
walked over to the store owner and in a cold-blooded fashion shot him
twice. The owner then dropped down behind the counter. It wasn't
more than 2 seconds after the BG first walked in the doors that he
shot the store owner.

Those shots at the store owner missed a teenage boy's head by inches.

The GO yelled for the BG to drop his gun as the GO drew his gun. The
BG opened fire on the GO. The GO returned fire, hitting the BG as the
GO dove hard for the floor behind some barrels full of ice and drinks.

The BG ran towards the back of the store, aiming his gun at an
innocent man laying prone on the floor. Luckily the BG was too
distracted by the GO to shoot the man. There is no doubt in my mind
that the man would have been shot in cold blood that day if it weren't
for that GO returning fire.

The BG kept trying to get to the front of the store by walking up
various aisles and firing shots at the GO as he did so. At one point
cans of tinned meat exploded on a shelf as the BG took a shot at the GO.

What was bizarre was that the BG actually was strutting around like he
owned the place while under fire! As he approached the front of one
aisle, he again pointed a gun at a person on the ground and was about
to execute him, when he was again distracted by the GO.

Finally the GO spotted the BG at the front of an aisle standing in the
open.

Much to his surprise, the GO discovered that when he dove hard for the
floor he had somehow broken the trigger on his gun!

But the gun was a single action, so the GO pushing himself up with one
arm, aimed the gun, pulled the hammer back and let it fly forward -
twice.

Although seriously wounded three times, the BG came at the GO. The BG
tried to grab the GO's gun since the BG's gun was out of ammunition.
A life-and-death struggle began. The GO got a grip on the BG's gun
and the GO hit the BG twice hard on the temple with the 7 1/2" barrel
on his rather heavy gun.

The BG finally broke off the engagement, tried to run out the front
door, but collapsed at the door.

The GO secured the BG's gun and keeping an eye on the now unconscious
bad guy, called 9-1-1.

The BG has now died (he was in critical condition since the shooting).

The police showed up a minute or so after the 9-1-1 call and initially
had everyone in the store at gun point and handcuffed some until they
could figure out who was who.

What really impressed me was that on the surveillance video, the
owner, while shot twice by the BG, was walking around making sure that
all of his customers were OK after the shooting had ended. He only
let himself collapse after he was sure they were OK! Words fail me on
this. I am so glad that he made it. What a dichotomy - a BG who
shoots an innocent person without provocation, almost killing a
teenager while doing so - caring for no one but himself. And then
the store owner who, while seriously wounded, making sure his
customers were OK. Evil exists and so does Good. Both were on
display in those two minutes of terror. Luckily only the bad guy was
killed. The owner was walking with a limp, clearly in some pain. :-(

A lot of people owe their lives to that GO. However, he is having
none of it, saying that he simply did what he had to do.

--

The GO wanted me to share the following points:

* Buy a quality gun - don't use some cheap $90 gun to protect your
life. He considered his gun to be a good one and even then the
trigger broke under the extreme stress of a life-and-death battle.

* Practice with your gun, get training, and be good with that gun.

* More and more BGs are choosing to kill in cold blood to get what
they want. If they can't live the "good life, " then they don't care
if their crimes send them to jail.

* He also noted that fewer and fewer BGs are getting any jail time.

--

Here are my thoughts from watching that tape:

* Talk about a cold-blooded, fast attack where an innocent was shot
without warning! Unbelievable. Situational awareness is really
important. Luck doesn't hurt, either.

* Open carry was an advantage in this case because in the video I saw
just how fast the GO managed to draw his gun and begin to return
fire. You always hear about how open carry is so bad tactically -
you'll be the first one shot, etc. Oh, yeah? The GO had a HUGE gun
in plain sight and he was NOT shot. Who got shot first? An unarmed
store owner.

* I am betting that the BG was on drugs, big time. He was hit with
THREE 45-CALIBER BULLETS, with at least two of those hits causing
grievous injury, and he continued the fight as if he had not even been
hit at all! In fact he was strutting like a peacock who owned the
place as he was walking up and down the aisles trying to get to a
position where he could shoot the GO. As a gun owner, you need to be
prepared for that eventuality and keep shooting the BG in his center
of mass until he stops his attack. Don't think one shot, or even two
shots, are going to do it. And a head shot might well be what it
takes to stop such an attack quickly.

* If you are out of ammunition, a gun does make a great weapon with
which to bludgeon someone in hand-to-hand combat.

* This shooting bolstered both sides of the argument about how much
ammunition one should carry. The good guy got off only four shots (of
course his gun had a broken trigger and that didn't help). The bad
guy got off six shots and ran out of ammunition (thankfully). But in
my mind, and having had some advanced training, I think an extra
magazine for a semi-auto, or a reloader for a revolver, is a good
idea. WIth someone like the BG above, if you run out of ammunition
before he does, he will execute you. Period.