45 colt

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Give a beginner a semi auto, and the usual tendency is to shoot, shoot fast and keep shooting faster than they can aim until the magazine is empty.

Don’t load their magazines up all the way. You can limit capacity in magazines in ways that mimics the realities of shooting a revolver. I say this as someone whose first handgun was a S&W Model 19 and one of the first handguns I shot to any extent was a S&W Model 13. It’s not that I entirely disagree with you. It’s that I’ve seen many people argue that people with greater capacity will just waste that capacity. Marksmanship fundamentals and capacity don’t have to be mutually exclusive. That’s a responsibility of the instructor to get across.


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[44 AMP]

It's not just the capacity. I'm a firm believer that once you graduate from single shots to repeaters, they should be manually operated repeaters, long gun or handgun.

I think that having to physically work the action (or at least cock the hammer) for each shot is a benefit to understanding what needs to go on. They don't need to stay there long, but I think its something that should be experienced, before moving to semi autos.

back on topic...
The .45 Colt was the undisputed king of handgun power from its 1873 origin until the .357 Magnum was created in 1935. Even in the Colt SAA with handloads you can get a 250gr bullet close to 1000fps (depending on enough barrel length) and that's nothing to sneer at.

If you're new to the .45 Colt, you need to be aware that the ammo sold as "Cowboy loads" is not what the old time cowboys used. It is light loaded ammo for use in the Cowboy Action Shooting matches, it is not full power ammo.

[Jim Watson]

But the OP already has a single action .45 that he is using for self defense, not looking for a basic trainer.
He is asking about the cartridge, which is plenty, but I am wondering about speed and accuracy.

[44 AMP]

Speed and accuracy? of what, specifically? the draw??

Both of those are in the hands of the shooter, more than the gun. The OP said carry, and in the car and the home for defense.

Didn't say anything beyond that, so we're short on details.

Speed of the draw depends on how the gun is carried and the skill of the user. Accuracy? there's two parts to that. One is simply what the gun and the chosen ammo do, and the other is what the shooter does with them.

And, further complicating this is a fixed sight gun, which is what I believe the OP has. Some guns print different loads in drastically different places. Most don't, but some DO. SO, it is up to the user to know what the gun and ammo do, and compensate, if necessary.

A friend came over one time, brought an SAA clone in .357 Mag. I no longer recall who made it. Sweet gun, looked good, worked well, and shot 158gr .38 Spl into a small group right on the point of aim at about 20yds.
HOWEVER, that gun shot every .357 load we put in it, a foot low and a foot left, in the hands of 4 different shooters.

That gun was one of the "exceptions to the rule". The do happen, so anyone with a fixed sight gun needs to test the ammo they are going to use to see where it hits, compared to where you aim, BEFORE you rely on it for defense.

[oldbear1950]

I have an UBERTI EL PATRON, OLD MODEL with the colt style hammer, and 4 clicks,
spells out c-o-l-t, when cocking the hammer. My two great grandfathers were town marshalls and one was a deputy marshall and texas ranger. Even up to the 1920s. They swore by the 45 colt, and said they never felt undergunned with a couple of 45s.
They worked in Oklahoma, and knew some of the old gun fighting lawmen of old Oklahoma, like Bill Tilghman, Hec Ramsey, and Bass Reeves. Oklahoma was a wild and wooly place, did not become a state till 1907.

My EL PATRON has 5 1/2 inch barrel, fixed sights. I have carried single actions most of my adult life, and feel comfortable using them. May not be as good with it as my greatgrandads were, but comfortable enough to be able to hit within 2 to 50 feet.
If I need something else, have 3 1911s, one 38super with a 9 mm conversion kit, 2 45 acps, one full size, and one commander size, and a Ruger security six, 38/357 mag
and I am 71 years old. Carried 1911s for 20 years in the military, and had my own too,

[Brutus]

My home defense gun is and will always be a 1911 in 45ACP but when it comes to woods walking in black bear country the 625 45 Colt mountain gun with my handloads is the gun of choice.

[reynolds357]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Five.

I am not personally familiar with the El Patron model but generally the Ubertis are essentially Colt clones, so 5 rounds is the safe carry mode.

If your SA has a Ruger type transfer bar or some other safety system, then it is safe to carry with all 6 loaded. If not, if its like the original Colts only load five, and do it the right way, (load one, skip one, load 4, lower the hammer) so that there is no live round under the hammer.

The newer ElPatron is supposed to be drop safe.

[stinkeypete]

In my mind, these sorts of discussions are like “if Gandalf was in a fight with Bruce Lee, who would win?”

Someone says “Gandalf, because Bruce Lee is dead!”

Then someone says “Yes, but Gandalf is a fictional character!”

Someone like me writes an analysis of Gandalf the Grey vs. Gandalf the White

So… effective at a situation that will never happen to you? I’m going to go out on a limb and say everyone would do better losing 20 pounds and it doesn’t matter at all what pistol you like.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by stinkeypete

So… effective at a situation that will never happen to you? I’m going to go out on a limb and say everyone would do better losing 20 pounds and it doesn’t matter at all what pistol you like.

Something being statistically very unlikely isn’t quite the same as something never happening. While it’s correct to say that there are other risks that are more likely, this does happen to some people, unfortunately for those people.

As for the weight issue, that’s likely true. But a person can own firearms and lose weight at the same time. Like I said before, it doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive.


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[44 AMP]

The newer ElPatron is supposed to be drop safe.

An original 1873 Colt SAA with an empty chamber under the hammer is "drop safe."

So, from your post should I infer that the older El Patrons are not "drop safe"?

[rclark]

An original 1873 Colt SAA with an empty chamber under the hammer is "drop safe."

Yep. Just the way I carry mine. Safe as can be with 5 up.

.45 Colt will handle SD situations just fine. It was the 'magnum' back in it's hey day and will work just fine today. And for the record, I shoot what I load, load what I shoot. That means 250gr RNFP or 255gr SWC will be found in my .45s moving around 850fps. Only reason I carry a .44 Special in town is the form factor on the Bulldog for Concealment. In the wild though, the .45 Colt SA is usually on duty.

[Blue1]

It's still a magnum today if you shoot Ruger loads.

My most potent .45 Colt load is 255 grains at 1200+ FPS for 900 lbs of energy.

That's with a 6" barrel Redhawk, in my Rossi lever gun it is probably 1400 FPS at over 1100 lbs.

[44 AMP]

It's still a magnum today if you shoot Ruger loads.

Which you shouldn't do if you don't have the right Ruger pistol.

Back in the early 70s when the "Ruger ONLY" handloads were developed, there was only one Ruger .45 Colt pistol, and it was the Blackhawk on the large (44mag size) frame. And, fwiw, Ruger NEVER authorized the use of those loads, or any other handload.

Today Ruger makes more than one gun in .45 Colt. And one of them (the New Vaquero) is on a Colt SAA size frame, and is NOT suitable for "Ruger Only" handloads, despite it being a Ruger.

All Rugers are not the same, and while I wouldn't hesititate to WORK UP heavy loads in a Redhawk, the only gun used during the creation of what came to be known as Ruger Only loads was the (new model) Blackhawk with the large frame. There are smaller frame Blackhawks (flattop models and such) so you must pay attention and know exactly what gun you have, and what it is able to take. The Vaquero was on the same frame size and will take the Blackhawk loads.

The NEW VAQUERO is a different gun, despite the similarity of the name, and is NOT suitable for loads heavier than what the Colt SAA (and clones) will safely handle.

The OP's El Patron is a Colt SAA class gun, and not suited to Ruger ONLY loads.

[Mike Irwin]

I wouldn't feel uncomfortable at all carrying my Smith 25-5 in .45 Long.

Finding a good defensive ammo right now could be the real problem.

[Bowdog]

OK in my testing a 200 gr. LFP 45 Colt round from a 3 1/2inch Vaquero hand loaded with 6gr of Trailboss penetrated one 2x4 and a hip joint from a cow. before disappearing into a tree trunk. The cast bullet is used for CAS shooting. I will not feel under gunned carrying the Vaquero I can get off 6 rounds in 7 second seconds drawing from a strong side holster. At 5 yards all in a 3-inch group.

[44 AMP]

Some years back, local indoor range had bowling pin shoots once in a while. It was a 50ft range, and the pins were about half way down, so call it 25 ft.

5 pins, on a table, with about a foot between each. All pins have to be off the table to count. One pin left on the table was a fail.

Ruger new model Blackhawk, .45 Colt 7.5" barrel. 250gr LSWC over 10.0gr Unique. (not a light load)

My best time was 7.02 seconds to clear the table. About a dozen people shot in the "Crank & Yank" class (SA revolver) that day. I didn't even place 3rd....

5 shots, 5 hits (I didn't miss any), 5 different aiming points. 25 ft. 7 seconds, SA revolver, and there were 3 guys that were faster than I was!
Which was not surprising, they practiced, I didn't. I shot my Blackhawk a lot, but the only time I ever played shooting my SA fast was at the pin shoots, which happened once a month or so back then. and due to my work schedule always happened on a Sunday after I worked the graveyard shift.
I went for fun, and just to see how I could do. Wasn't seriously trying to compete or win.

Point here, don't despair if some ignorant fool sneers at the .45 Colt SA revolver for self defense. Over the last 149 years there have been a lot of people who did, ....once...

[Drm50]

If you can shoot a SA you should be able to shoot anything else. I might agree in 22 a good auto is easiest to shoot. Center fire not so much, a good DA revolver is easier for most. A 45 Colt is a good cartridge and versatile. I SA revolver isn’t best choice for carry regardless of cartridge.

[JustJake]

a good DA revolver is easier for most. A 45 Colt is a good cartridge and versatile.

Agree. The .45LC is a solid defensive cartridge.

SA revolver isn’t best choice for carry regardless of cartridge.

No kidding … as a go-to defense weapon the Colt Peacemaker and similar “cowboy” SA revolvers were passé after the O.K. Corral and obsolete after 1911 (one guess what showed up that year).

That’s not to say SA wheelguns have no use.

Today they are popular as (1) Sunday afternoon range toys and (2) period-correct props for all the Wyatt-Earp wannabes who populate the Cowboy Action Leagues around the country, where their period-correct “Old West” clothes are actually far more expensive than their cowboy guns.

[44 AMP]

as a go-to defense weapon the Colt Peacemaker and similar “cowboy” SA revolvers were passé after the O.K. Corral and obsolete after 1911

The OK Corral shootout was in 1881. And more than a few lawmen in the rural west were still horse mounted and carrying SAAs several decades later and some even beyond that.

The online dictionary my computer searched gives the definition of "obsolete" as "no longer produced or used; out of date"

Out of date the SA revolver certainly is. Still produced and used though. Just no longer the most practical choice for duty/service use, or defensive carry.

Someone carrying an SA revolver for personal defense today. by choice, when they could have chosen something better suited for that, just might have a good reason. It might be they use it better than anything else, and accept the drawbacks it has compared to more modern designs.

[Webleymkv]

As far as the cartridge goes, .45 Long Colt (I always add the Long to irritate the semantics gestapo) should be at least as effective as .45 ACP as it will propel bullets of the same diameter and equal or greater weight at equal or greater velocity. The only caveat is that I'd consider cartridges like .44 Special or .45 Auto Rim slightly better from a DA revolver but that's because of rim dimension rather than ballistics.

As to the choice of a SA revolver, I really don't question or criticize people's handgun choices anymore barring the ridiculous or absurd (I can't think of any good reason to carry a matchlock). While a SA revolver might not be my choice, that doesn't make someone else's reason for choosing one invalid. While we can pontificate about all the scenarios in which a SA revolver will "get you killed in the streets" the fact remains that a SA revolver in the hand of someone who knows how to use it will be sufficient for the vast majority of situations and that's not a bad side of the bell curve to start on.

[Mike Irwin]

"As far as the cartridge goes, .45 Long Colt"

Oh my Lord I do declare that I have a case of the vapors!

[44 AMP]

I always figured that the word "long" became associated with the .45 Colt round after the Army adopted the .45 Govt/.45 Schoefield.

I can easily envisage a guy going to draw ammo for his pistol, being asked "long or short?" and replying, "Long, for the Colt." And over time and sloppy usage that becomine "Long, Colt" and finally just being called "Long Colt".

I don't think there is an actual "wrong" done if you say .45 Long Colt, I have seen factory ammo boxes marked that way. Not many, not modern but they have done it, so its not improper to say either one as far as I'm concerned.

What the manufacturer calls their product is what it is, even if the rest of the world calls it something else.

[Mike Irwin]

"I don't think there is an actual "wrong" done if you say .45 Long Colt, I have seen factory ammo boxes marked that way. Not many, not modern but they have done it, so its not improper to say either one as far as I'm concerned."

The last time the "There's no such thing as a .45 Long Colt so I don't know what cartridge you're talking about!" butt hurt crowd kicked off I posted a number of photographs of recent manufacture ammunition with the dreaded, and mysterious, appellation...

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...ight=long+colt

.30-30 Winchester? Happy as a clam.

.38-55 Winchester? What a wonderful cartridge!

9mm Luger? I have a bunch of handguns chambered for it!

.45 Long Colt? A POX UPON YOUR HOUSE, YOU VARLET! YOUR FATHER WAS A HAMSTER AND YOUR MOTHER SMELT OF ELDERBERRIES!

[Drm50]

I’ve shot SAs my whole life. My first new CF handgun was a Ruger SBH in 1964. When I was a kid in 60s I had one of each Ruger SA that they made ( calibers ). That same SBH is still my designated deer shooter. A Single-6 was my first quality new 22 handgun also. Still have both these. Having said that I have no problem shooting them but would not want them for serious carry. I think a lot of people are fooling themselves when talking about SAs in todays situations. Usually bad guy gets first move and you are already at disadvantage. I carry nothing but revolvers in the woods. Didn’t even own anything for CCW for years. Didn’t feel I needed one. When this social engineering started to flare up I bought a 1911 Commander.
I’m not worried about limited capacity or even extra mags. I know it will go bang and at the SD type ranges it’s all you need.

[SIGSHR]

IIRC back then the Army only issued the shorter Schofield round.