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Old January 29, 2022, 06:07 PM   #1
OldMarksman
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On the Subject of Self Preservation

Some time back, there were three very scary car-jacking incidents that occurred in parking lots in our area within a week. I sent an email to our neighbors with some tips on how to avoid being victimized--do not sit and eat or txt in the care, watch for people watching you, and so on.

I did not mention defensive weapons, but one neighbor annoyed me by remarking how glad she was that I had not mentioned guns.

Looking back these dozen years, I now realize that thoughts about firearms should really come last, after avoidance, evasion, de-escalation. One does not want to get involved in a use of force incident, deadly or otherwise, if it can possibly be avoided.

But--for those who do think it prudent to carry a gun, and I number among them, it is extremely important to know a lot about the subject.

That starts with things like firearms safety and proficiency, but it does not stop there.

Real defensive shooting requires the ability to shoot very rapidly, and that skill requires development and practice.

The civilian gun owner should know going in to not "play cop", to never threaten anyone or initiate a confrontation, to avoid using deadly force to protect personal property or to prevent trespass, to not try citizen's arrest, to not shoot after the immediate danger has passed, and things like that. Toward that end, I recommend taking an on-line advanced course from Law of Self Defense, and, if possible, the Armed Citizen's rules of Engagement class (Massad Ayoob Group's MAG-20 Classroom).

Now, defensive shooting and shooting at targets place directly in front of us at the square are not at all the cam e thing. A really good tactical course, such as the I.C.E. Personal Defense Network's Fundamentals of Intuitive Defensive Shooting Course, is well worth the fees and the travel involved.

Now, real bad guys can shoot back; there may be potential threats really aren't; there may well be innocents downrange and milling about the scene; and someone else with a gun may see us as a threat. For this, there is no substitute for good Force-on-Force training.

If all of this sounds like too much money, (1) how would you put a value on your life, or those of your loved ones, or your continued freedom; and (2), are those next couple of guns that you are considering buying really worth more than your safety?
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Old January 29, 2022, 09:09 PM   #2
Skippy
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Good post, I agree on everything with one philosophical exception:

"*If all of this sounds like too much money*...

Most people evaluate things by what is known as *cost/risk/benefit analysis*, whether they consciously know they're doing it or not.

In this scenario the potential risk is a big personal part of the equation.

Just my 2ยข.

-------------------
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous
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Old January 30, 2022, 02:29 AM   #3
rc
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Most people are short sighted and think it can't happen to them. I was one of them. I caught a burglar at gun point when I happened to come home with a 22 and ammo in the car and interrupted a burglary in progress. The guy I surprised tried to talk his way out of gun point making excuses to why he was there but I was like a bird dog on a pheasant. I had to make him believe I would shoot him if he made any sudden moves. I actually was holding my finger straight off the trigger and aiming right in front of him but he didn't know that. I was trembling and didn't want to accidentally pop him while we waited for police since I was trembling and twitchy. I told him "I don't care what you have to say, tell it to the police" and tried to block out his jabber and just watch what he was doing. I had no idea if the guy was armed and I wasn't giving him any opportunity to try anything. I was lucky it didn't escalate because there was a partner somewhere that got away. I was not prepared mentally for the head games the perp tried to play with me that day while we waited for the police to show up. We train how to handle our guns but never to handle the mental stress from verbal/emotional conflict. Once you draw down on someone you consider a threat, you are committed because you have given up the element of surprise and they could pull out a weapon of their own if given a chance. You may have momentary control of the situation but could just as quickly lose it if the person is desperate enough. I made it through that bad situation with some luck and was glad I didn't have to shoot. I put up cameras right after that to discourage the same thing from happening again. Countersurveillance prevents criminals from casing you without being seen. That's why the ring camera is so good. Experienced criminals always want to knock at the front door and see if someone is home rather than bashing in the back door and getting a load of buckshot in the face from the guy sleeping inside.
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Old January 30, 2022, 10:24 AM   #4
OldMarksman
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Quote:
I caught a burglar at gun point when I happened to come home with a 22 and ammo in the car and interrupted a burglary in progress. The guy I surprised tried to talk his way out of gun point making excuses to why he was there but I was like a bird dog on a pheasant. I had to make him believe I would shoot him if he made any sudden moves. I actually was holding my finger straight off the trigger and aiming right in front of him but he didn't know that. I was trembling and didn't want to accidentally pop him while we waited for police since I was trembling and twitchy. I told him "I don't care what you have to say, tell it to the police" and tried to block out his jabber and just watch what he was doing. I had no idea if the guy was armed and I wasn't giving him any opportunity to try anything. I was lucky it didn't escalate because there was a partner somewhere that got away. I was not prepared mentally for the head games the perp tried to play with me that day while we waited for the police to show up.
Massad Ayoob strongly advises to not attempt to detain anyone at gunpoint (with a couple of very rare specific exceptions). He cites the risks of shooting unlawfully, of being ambushed by an accomplice while occupied, and the chance of being overcome and killed.

We know from other sources that should they become ill or incapacitated while being held, the onus is on us.

And, of course should they want to leave, we have to let them.

We want 'em gone.

Last edited by OldMarksman; January 30, 2022 at 10:25 AM. Reason: typo
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Old January 30, 2022, 05:27 PM   #5
OldMarksman
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One other thing, rc. My comments were intended in no way as criticism of your judgment. Years of watching screen fiction can condition anyone into trying to detain a felon, into pursuing ing a fleeing suspect, and other things.

Those things can lead to very bad outcomes.

That's why I so strongly recommend the classes mentioned in the OP.
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Old January 31, 2022, 06:29 AM   #6
eflyguy
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I have taken a class on when and where it's lawful to use or threaten deadly force. I think about it often when I'm out and about in public places. I keep the windows up and doors locked in some of them, so it would take a pretty violent act to be a threat to my person. I guess the best way to describe it is "switching modes" - what would I do at my local grocery store, vs other, less desirable places. No, I don't hang out there, but have had to pass thru for business many times.

I have had two situations where urban outdoorsmen have come up to the car at a light in downtown. Pulling the (holstered) pistol from the glove box and placing on the dash was enough to convince them to f-off.
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