Not a silencer?

Prof Young · July 22, 2022, 10:02 PM

So I'm watching an old John Wayne movie about the creation of the fighting SeaBees. The Japanese snipers are shooting a rifle that has some kind of can at the end. Looks like a shortened silencer. But, unless the movie makers have it wrong, it's not a silencer. What is that? Flash suppression maybe?

Talk to me.

Life is good
Prof Young

Jim Watson · July 22, 2022, 11:31 PM

IMFDB calls it a flash hider but it looks like a muzzle brake to me.
But I would not be concerned about technical details in a movie that arms the Japanese with Luger, Colts, Thompsons, and Krags in addition to a scope sighted Mauser.

**44 AMP** · July 23, 2022, 12:11 AM

Quote:

But I would not be concerned about technical details in a movie that arms the Japanese with Luger, Colts, Thompsons, and Krags in addition to a scope sighted Mauser.

Many of the old movies are notoriously inaccurate in the firearms shown. This includes a LOT of the westerns as well.

There are proven historical examples of the Japanese using captured weapons. Including some US tanks and a gunboat, if I recall correctly.

On this forum a couple years back there was a Luger captured from the Japanese. Interesting story on that one. That Luger was made for the Dutch, under contract, and delivered before the war broke out in Europe in 1940. It got sent to the Dutch East Indies, where it was captured by the Japanese when they took them in early 42, and recovered by US forces in the Philippines in 45, and brought back to the US by a GI.

taylorce1 · July 23, 2022, 08:58 AM

Could have been a rifle gernade attachment to the rifle. Most looked similar to a suppressor attached to the rifle.

**44 AMP** · July 24, 2022, 03:50 PM

During WWII, the Germans had a grenade launcher device on some of the Kar 98ks. The device pictured in the film stills isn't it.

The rifle is identified as a Gew 98, which it a WWI rifle, and they didn't have rifle grenade launchers for those.

based on what I see in the pics, best guess is a dummy item, attached at some point by the prop dept for something or other (or possibly just because it looked "neat" -or what ever the slang was at the time).

In LOTS of the old movies, historical accuracy & period correct firearms were not a priority. Literally what ever was in the prop dept that met the general idea (like bolt action rifle, or semi auto pistol) was what got used.

SOMETIMES, it was something used because it would work with blanks, like SGT York using a Luger in the movie, because it worked with blanks and they didn't have a 1911 that would...

In the old westerns one often sees model 92 Winchesters being used in an 1880s setting. It was a lever action, and so, was "close enough".

The current trend for historical accuracy in both costumes and equipment didn't really start until the 60s, and still isn't universal today...

Jim Watson · July 24, 2022, 07:22 PM

I was more interested in the scope than the muzzle do-dad.
Couldn't identify it.

Polinese · July 25, 2022, 05:11 AM

http://www.imfdb.org/images/8/85/Fig...es-Mauser5.jpg

http://www.imfdb.org/images/8/8f/Fig...es-Mauser4.jpg

http://www.imfdb.org/images/e/e8/Fig...es-Mauser6.jpg

IMFDB lists it as a flash hider. The scope looks like a typical German scope to me.

**44 AMP** · July 25, 2022, 09:37 PM

Quote:

IMFDB lists it as a flash hider.

And, they are, of course, infallible....

Polinese · July 25, 2022, 10:02 PM

Just sharing the info

taylorce1 · July 26, 2022, 03:08 PM

Thanks for posting the pictures, definitely not a rifle gernade launcher.

**4V50 Gary** · July 28, 2022, 10:32 AM

I'm unaware of any WW II Japanese suppressor for rifles. The rifles look like Mauser K98k's to me. See the bayonet lug and front barrel band? Interesting how the bolt knob was flattened to a butterknife configuration like that of a Mannlicher (third image).

The scope mount on the first image is different from that of the second.

Scope could be British (WW I) or German (likely since the rifle is German). Arisakas scopes weren't adjustable for windage or elevation. Windage was done at the factory and even one scope mount had adjustment knobs, but that was a tricky proposition to use in the field and I think that was all factory done. Instead of having windage and elevation knobs, the Japanese had one of the most sophisticated reticles for elevation and to a lesser exent, windage.

My sniping book covers the Soviet suppressor and the German copy of it. The Soviets issued them primrarily to guerillas (removal of sentries), NKVD, scouts (also sentry removal) and only rarely to their own snipers.

The Western Powers had suppressor technology for decades but in WW II they were primarily used by covert operators as assassination weapons. There were a few suppressed SMGs too that got into the hands of front line (British) soldiers. Sgt. Harry Furness (sniper-sergeant) briefly carried a suppressed SMG until he found out that the suppressor was shot out by another soldier.

**4V50 Gary** · July 28, 2022, 11:13 AM

How about this cinema Japanese soldier with a 03 Springfield with Kollmorgen scope? Bet that's a G&H mount.

Paul B. · August 8, 2022, 04:13 PM

On the Japanese using Mausers, that wouldn't surprise me. One has to wonder how many 8MM Mauser rifles were captured by the invading Japanese? They probably made use of them when necessary.
Paul B.

July 22, 2022, 10:02 PM	#1
Prof Young Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2007 Location: Illinois - down state Posts: 2,404	Not a silencer? So I'm watching an old John Wayne movie about the creation of the fighting SeaBees. The Japanese snipers are shooting a rifle that has some kind of can at the end. Looks like a shortened silencer. But, unless the movie makers have it wrong, it's not a silencer. What is that? Flash suppression maybe? Talk to me. Life is good Prof Young

July 23, 2022, 08:58 AM	#4
taylorce1 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2005 Location: On the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 8,249	Could have been a rifle gernade attachment to the rifle. Most looked similar to a suppressor attached to the rifle. __________________ NRA Life Member

July 24, 2022, 03:50 PM	#5
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,846	During WWII, the Germans had a grenade launcher device on some of the Kar 98ks. The device pictured in the film stills isn't it. The rifle is identified as a Gew 98, which it a WWI rifle, and they didn't have rifle grenade launchers for those. based on what I see in the pics, best guess is a dummy item, attached at some point by the prop dept for something or other (or possibly just because it looked "neat" -or what ever the slang was at the time). In LOTS of the old movies, historical accuracy & period correct firearms were not a priority. Literally what ever was in the prop dept that met the general idea (like bolt action rifle, or semi auto pistol) was what got used. SOMETIMES, it was something used because it would work with blanks, like SGT York using a Luger in the movie, because it worked with blanks and they didn't have a 1911 that would... In the old westerns one often sees model 92 Winchesters being used in an 1880s setting. It was a lever action, and so, was "close enough". The current trend for historical accuracy in both costumes and equipment didn't really start until the 60s, and still isn't universal today... __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

July 26, 2022, 03:08 PM	#10
taylorce1 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2005 Location: On the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 8,249	Thanks for posting the pictures, definitely not a rifle gernade launcher. __________________ NRA Life Member

July 28, 2022, 10:32 AM	#11
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,841	I'm unaware of any WW II Japanese suppressor for rifles. The rifles look like Mauser K98k's to me. See the bayonet lug and front barrel band? Interesting how the bolt knob was flattened to a butterknife configuration like that of a Mannlicher (third image). The scope mount on the first image is different from that of the second. Scope could be British (WW I) or German (likely since the rifle is German). Arisakas scopes weren't adjustable for windage or elevation. Windage was done at the factory and even one scope mount had adjustment knobs, but that was a tricky proposition to use in the field and I think that was all factory done. Instead of having windage and elevation knobs, the Japanese had one of the most sophisticated reticles for elevation and to a lesser exent, windage. My sniping book covers the Soviet suppressor and the German copy of it. The Soviets issued them primrarily to guerillas (removal of sentries), NKVD, scouts (also sentry removal) and only rarely to their own snipers. The Western Powers had suppressor technology for decades but in WW II they were primarily used by covert operators as assassination weapons. There were a few suppressed SMGs too that got into the hands of front line (British) soldiers. Sgt. Harry Furness (sniper-sergeant) briefly carried a suppressed SMG until he found out that the suppressor was shot out by another soldier. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

July 22, 2022, 11:31 PM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	IMFDB calls it a flash hider but it looks like a muzzle brake to me. But I would not be concerned about technical details in a movie that arms the Japanese with Luger, Colts, Thompsons, and Krags in addition to a scope sighted Mauser.

July 24, 2022, 07:22 PM	#6
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	I was more interested in the scope than the muzzle do-dad. Couldn't identify it.

July 25, 2022, 05:11 AM	#7
Polinese Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2010 Posts: 949	http://www.imfdb.org/images/8/85/Fig...es-Mauser5.jpg http://www.imfdb.org/images/8/8f/Fig...es-Mauser4.jpg http://www.imfdb.org/images/e/e8/Fig...es-Mauser6.jpg IMFDB lists it as a flash hider. The scope looks like a typical German scope to me.

July 25, 2022, 10:02 PM	#9
Polinese Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2010 Posts: 949	Just sharing the info

July 28, 2022, 11:13 AM	#12
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,841	How about this cinema Japanese soldier with a 03 Springfield with Kollmorgen scope? Bet that's a G&H mount. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

August 8, 2022, 04:13 PM	#13
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,802	On the Japanese using Mausers, that wouldn't surprise me. One has to wonder how many 8MM Mauser rifles were captured by the invading Japanese? They probably made use of them when necessary. Paul B. __________________ COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!