Help me with some headscratching over Titegroup

[Shotgun Slim]

First,a small thing. SNS has come out with a new coated 165 gr for 40/10mm so I tried a box. Just for the heck of it I loaded a few with 3.3 grs of Clays and a few with 3.3 grs of Titegroup only out of curiosity as to what one would feel like to the other. I was thinking that the Titegroup load should shoot softer because it was relatively lighter than the Clays load. Well the Clays shot in it's usual soft and sweet manner and the Titegroup was noticeably harsher recoilwise. Titegroup is slower than Clays a little,so what gives? I have loaded 40 s&w for a long time and several years ago I tried and rejected Titegroup as a stock powder because it didn't give me what I wanted in a particular loading. Yes I know that Titegroup is a fine powder,but I had several others that suited better.
So lately I had a chance at a pound of Titegroup which I grabbed as no sensible person turns down usable powder these days. But now there's a problem. I have what I think is a reasonable load for plinking with it and I am getting some intolerable inconsistencies. What I am getting is best described as band,bang,bang,BANG. Some seem about right and a few are scary heavy. Needless to say I will knock the rest apart. I aint crazy. Here's the load:mixed brass bulge busted of course,SNS coated 175 swc sized to .4015 which I have used by the thousands,Tula std spp and 4.2 grs Titegroup loaded to 1.130 and crimped .423-.422. No setback was found,the Tula primers have been working fine in thousands of my other loads and those dimensions are long proven. I have reloaded for a very long time and am not used to any inconsistencies,and this load ought not be doing this. I wonder if finally the manufacturers are so jammed up that a lot of less than perfect product has emerged. Anyhow I would appreciate some inpute/brainstorming on this or maybe somebody else is having the same problem. Thanks

[Hammerhead]

No setback was found

Other than powder charge variations, setback would be my first suspect.
Have you made up dummy rounds (no powder, no primer) and cycled them through your gun to check setback?
I wonder about the slick surface of coated bullets making them more likely to set back.

[T. O'Heir]

"...it was relatively lighter than the Clays load...." 3.3 is 3.3. However, 3.3 of Clays is .1 below minimum. 3.3 of Titegroup is 1.2 below minimum.
In any case, Titegroup gives higher velocities, but uses more powder to do it.
You're comparing apples to oranges. And read your manual.

[Shotgun Slim]

I realize that those were two non similar loads and that it was apples and watermelon . It was simply a feel test that showed that a Very Light load of Titegroup had worse feeling recoil than a Light load of Clays. A lot of my loads are below book minimum.

[Shotgun Slim]

Hammerhead-I have measured all remaining loads including several that were cycled and all are fine. I use that bullet in many applications,some loaded heavier than the load in question,some lighter. Never a problem.

[849ACSO]

I shoot quite a bit of titegroup in .45 ACP. I also shoot Universal.

I like Titegroup for being cleaner and going 2/3 again as far per pound, but I too have noticed a sharper recoil impulse for the same velocity as Universal.

That said, I have never experienced the inconsistent blast noise you are talking about. I have found TG to be more consistent than any of the other powders I have tried.

[Shotgun Slim]

Yeah I'm not about knocking Titegroup. I think something is wrong here and I'm out of ideas.I know some people will want to jump on the Tula primers,but they are going under Clays,Accurate 5 and 7 fine.

[849ACSO]

Understood. I have nothing other my experience with TG and .45ACP. I don't reload .40, nor have I ever used Tula primers. I have no clue what "demons" that caliber brings with it to the loading press. Other than the bulged brass from certain guns due to high pressure loading......

Where is your load compared to max?

Are you trimming cases to length to avoid over pressure from long cases getting too far out into the leade or rifling after working them through the bulge buster? I've never used one, but I would suspect that has to lengthen the case pretty quickly.

I just know that some are a bit reluctant to use TG since it leaves a lot of room in the case for the possibility of a double, but I've never had any issues with it.

[Shotgun Slim]

Hodgdon's website lists 4.2 grs as starting load for jacketed and plated 180 bullets. I'm using coated lead which should generate less pressure imho. I measure my cases and never trim,just toss them when they get close,because I mostly load light and the longer ones have probably seen a lot of action.

[849ACSO]

Are the casings consistent in length?

If you're taper crimping, maybe you're getting more inconsistent crimps with untrimmed cases than you think you are?

I will also say that TG doesn't measure well for me either. Mine will throw +/- .2 grains. So in the grand scheme, that's a range of .4 grains. Kind of a big difference in the smaller capacity .40 case than my .45's. How often did you check your throws?

[Unclenick]

Well, something is wrong, but with a powder as fast and position insensitive as Tightgroup, it surprises me you are having it unless you have a really bad dispensing issue.

Let's do several things:

1. Inspect the powder visually. More than once we've had members post about having purchased powder that got mixed by somebody; usually a customer who returned it to the store claiming it was unopened by gluing the seal back on, but who has actually made up for the weight of what he used by tossing something else in. In their cases it was obvious there were two different grain types in the canister. Unfortunately some spherical powders are indistinguishable from some others, so this isn't guaranteed to eliminate the possibility of an uneven mix, but it's the first thing to check anyway.
   
   
2. It does sound like inconsistent ignition, for whatever reason. Even though the powder is rated for all primers, if you have some others, I would try them, just as a double-check of your current primer's compatibility with TG.
   
   One issue with the Russian primers is they don't appear to deburr the lips of their primer cups after grinding them to final height, so a lot of them insert harder than average. A primer not seated hard enough to slightly compress the bridge of priming mix between the cup and anvil tip can actually light up slowly or irregularly. One helpful added step is to ream even your commercial brass or run them through a primer pocket swager. This is to loosen the pockets slightly. A little dry lube can help, too.
   
   
3. Load some test rounds identical to the last ones, but weigh every charge this time to eliminate dispensing issues as the variable. I expect either the primer, primer ignition, or powder dispensing issue will likely prove to be the source of the problem.

A chronograph would be a good instrument to have for in this diagnosis. The reported velocity standard deviation is a good indicator of ignition consistency. In general, the more irregular the ignition, the bigger the velocity standard deviation gets.

[Shotgun Slim]

Thanks,guys for the input. First,to 849,the cases are not consistent,but the crimp is .I have measured all aspects of the remaining rounds from that batch and no cases were over long and all crimps were .423-.422. I decided to knock all of them apart,but my old RCBS inertia puller broke after about 20.I weighed every charge and I swear they were on the money at 4.2. I use an RCBS Uniflow measure and that thing is about as good as they come. Uncle you have some good ideas but honestly I am not willing to shoot that load again in any form,at least not from this container of powder. It was bought new from LGS and was sealed (I always check).There is enough difference in some of these loads that I would consider myself asking for trouble.I would love to play detective and figure this out,but if I am unlucky enough to have a bad sample of powder......too close to my face if it goes wrong. I am probably past half a million handloads between shotgun,rifle and pistol and I have never been close to anything like this. I feel strongly enough about it that I will not give this powder away. I realize that the chance of this powder being faulty is really slim,but if I see anybody else on forums or anywhere having similar problems with current production Titegroup then I might get serious about interacting with Hodgdon on this. Thanks again for the input guys,not trying to be difficult,just sensible.

[849ACSO]

Sorry to hear you are that disappointed with TG. Given the charges of your pulled rounds are consistent, and if you feel it's not a case length problem, reuse your primed cases with the same primers, same case lengths and same bullets. Just use different powder. As was said earlier, a chrono would likely be invaluable checking the loads for consistent speeds. It's possible to get a bad lot of powder I suppose, albeit super unlikely.

I would suspect primers, cases or bullets before "new, sealed" powder.

[Shotgun Slim]

Excellent idea. Will do.

[OverPressure]

I read your post on Titegroup and thought you might be interested in my
experience with the powder. I have loads in 38 special ,45acp and my smith and wesson 500 50 caliber, my results differ greatly.

I was loading a 38 special 3.8 grains of Titegroup using SNS `125 flatpoint
i had a number of blow overs where the powder didn't ignite!!! I could
hear the velocity differential as well. I was using cci small pistol primers.

My solution was a small piece of tissue over the powder pushed in with
a standard pencil up against the charge. This bullet is one of my best
soft target rds. It chronos at about 825 fps. Without the tissue i
couldn't get any consistant results.

I have a 6.3 gr Titegroup load using the same 125 gr SNS flat point
and it shoots perfectly in a 357 mag case at 1300fps.

Is Pressure rolling around inside your head hear. It sure has my attension!

I collected a couple hundred small pistol primer 45acp brass cases. I loaded
them with 5.1 gr of Titegroup using cci spp and the chrono on average of
slightly over 800fps with no unusual problems.

I took the same cases and used srp, cci again and the chrono was 840 fps
no unusual problems. These were both SNS 200gr SWC.

I didn't experment with srp on the 38 flat point loads.

With your 40 caliber if you try the tissue wadding you may see favorable results.

I have a 45acp 200gr SNS semi wad cutter load that shoots like your 40 cal
but when i used the tissue with 5.4 grains of Green Dot it is a consistant
860fps clean accurate load. Without the tissue it is 100fps variation
in velocity.

I use between 10 and 13 gr of Titegroup in my S&W 50 cal. Winchester
Large Rifle Primers. Very Small Volume For The Case , no problems at all.



My Clays Standard supply has dried up and the days of me cranking out
200 plus rds an hr are gone.

I am alot slower, but i am still able to load a respectable rd.

[Shotgun Slim]

I appreciate your thoughts and suggestions,but I think my problem is a bit different from what you describe. The inconsistent ignition shows itself as VERY heavy noise/recoil. The load is fairly light and most of the rounds sound and feel right. The heavy ones are almost like .357 mag compared to 38 special -huge difference . This is not nearly my first time with Titegroup. I have put together lots of light and accurate loads in .40 and 9mm. Never any inconsistencies before. It bothers me that this is happening because I've been handloading for decades without anything close to this. As I said before I am going to pull the rest of these down and salvage the cases and bullets and not use any more of this can of Titegroup. I actually like Clays better for .40 light loads and have lots of that. Thanks again.

[Wreck-n-Crew]

My two suggestions would one triple check charge weights (done>>>I think) and try a different primer. But I like Unclenicks way of putting it better, measure each charge, check primer seating and if still inconsistent, replace primer. If all fail replace powder. FWIW I had a similar incident with Titegroup in 9mm and it was my powder charge...progressive press... in hurry and hard to tell...not checking enough... you get the picture.

Thing about Titegroup is the small VMD and charge weight. It is easy to be off enough for bang vs. BANG. I wish Titegroup had Red Dot volume....man that would rock! Little more accurate in 9mm and cleaner too with same small charge weight (almost identical)giving you 1,700 rounds per lb.