Issue with FL die and M1

hans4811 · May 8, 2010, 08:31 PM

Need some help here...

Trying to setup my new RCBS FL sizing X-Die for my M1 Garand.

Here's how I do it on my Garand.

Measuring fired brass is useless because it's stretched a little long and won't fit back in the chamber.

I take the bolt out, pop out the ejector and springs and firing pin and just set the extractor back in (to help pull the cases back out after testing).

I also get my Sinclair bump gage (that will measure the case's shoulder) so that I can check each resized case and then I pop it into the Wilson Headspace gage to check to see if it falls in between the min/max steps.

I full-length size with the die a little loose, drop the case in the chamber, and see if the bolt closes. It won't all the way at first, so I advance the die again and try again. I do this until the bolt closes so the right hand lug is all the way down and I can feel a "click" when it bottoms out. I did this with several cases.

I then intended to adjust my die so that the shoulder ends up about 0.003 shorter than the longest case that closes the bolt completely. I do all of this simply for longer case life, since I highly doubt that the accuracy difference is enough to notice.

But here's the thing, when I finally get the bolt to close on the resized case, it's now below the minimum step on the Wilson headspace gauge, well below it , by about .003 thousands. The distance from the top of the max step to the minimum step is .006 thousands. My case is .003 thousands below that, meaning when I take a measurement, it's .009 thousands below the max step.

So if I size it to just the minimum Sammi spec, which is the minimum step on the Wilson headspace gage, then the bolt won't close.

1.9285 (bolt closes)
+.003
--------
1.9315 (bolt now does NOT close) - this is also the minimum step on the Wilson case gage.

What the heck ?? Do I just resize below the minimum step on the Wilson gage which is below the minimum Sammi spec ?

What am I missing here....

ps. this is HXP brass once fired from my M1. Length of case is below max, crimp has been removed so the little 'tabs' don't mess up any measurement.

Thanks for any help.
Ken

kraigwy · May 8, 2010, 10:56 PM

If I read this right, you do have a Wilson case gage, if thats true, its a simple matter of adjusting the die until it fits flush in the wilson gage. That should fit the chamber of your rifle. Now once you get that set, lock down you rdie and you are set.

Gas guns are hard on brass. The reasoning is, the gas is pushing on the inside of your case against the shoulder. Then the bullet passes the gas port and gas is bled off and is pushing aginst the operating rod, causing it to pull on the rem of the case. Now you have two opposing forces working on your brass, one pushing on the inside of the shoulder, and the second pulling on the rim to extract the case. This happens when the brass is at its hottest point.

In reloading the brass needs to be put back to specs. The sizing die does this, and the wilson (or other case gage) tells you when it is in specs.

SB dies have no value in this, they size the BASE of the die, and do no more to the lengh then a normal FL sizing die.

Several things can and do happen if the brass is not sized to proper lenght. One, failure to feed, Two, failure to extract or if it extracts failure to chamber a new round. This action works like and is often mistaken for under powered powder charges.

Third and the most dangerous if slam fires, Common on M1s and M14/M1As, not quite as commone on ARs. Primers often get the blame for these slam fires.

The first two problems are common on all of them.

This is why, at many High Power matches, the Match director, safety officer, or other range personnal will carry Case Gages, and if reloads are suspect, they are checked, if they dont fit the gage, then the gun is removed from the line until suitable ammo is obtained.

Never reload ammo for gas guns unless you use a case gage to set up the sizing die, Wilson, Dillon, RCBS and others make them or you can make them youself if you have the tools. I made one for my M1 out a an old barrel blank, it works ever bit as good ast the commerical.

Regardless where you get them, get one and use it.

hans4811 · May 9, 2010, 07:01 AM

Maybe I didn't explain it well enough then...the problem is I can adjust the die so that when I put it in the Wilson case gage, it'll be at the minimum step of this gage, but then I won't be able to close the bolt. The only time it will close the bolt is when I have oversized it, to the point of where it sits BELOW the minimum step of the Wilson case gage.

Slamfire · May 9, 2010, 07:19 AM

I believe that your rifle is incorrectly headspaced. It is more common to find rifle chambers that are above the "No-G0" gage, but for you, it is below the "Go" gage.

So here is the issue. For you, with your rifle, this is actually risky as standard ammunition, sized to "Go" is too long for your chamber. It is potentially dangerous because during feed bolt closure is delayed. The cocking cams of your rifle have to crush fit (resize) the round to the chamber. This is not dangerous in a bolt rifle, but a Garand has a free floating firing pin. Any delay to bolt closure means while the case is being crush fit, that firing pin is just tapping the heck out of the primer and the bolt lugs are not in the receiver locking recesses. There have been plenty of out of battery slamfires with Garands, this is a situation that increases the possibility of a slamfire.

So what you can do. You can replace the bolt with a bolt that properly headspaces. I think this is the best long term solution. Do you know anyone with a bag of bolts and Go and No Go headspace gages?

A short term solution is to size your brass so it is .003" below chamber size. Your reloads will function perfectly as long as they are shorter than the chamber and do not cause any delay to bolt closure.

However this is undesirable as you have to segregate your brass, keep track of which brass has been sized for the one particular rifle. Using undersized brass in rifles with correct headspace will create short case life as case head separations will happen as undersized brass is stretched to a normal sized chamber.

But the next guy who gets that rifle will not know any better, and then he might have a slamfire.

F. Guffey · May 9, 2010, 10:36 AM

I am a big fan of determining head space before firing in thousands, once head space is known correctly adjusting the die, shell holder and press for sizing is nothing more than using a transfer to set up the die. But others find it necessary to screw with it until 'IT' fits.

You are full length sizing cases that are .009 under the perfect chamber length of a go-gage? .009 is .004 shorter than a minimum length case, again, I am a fan of determining head space first, for me this beats using 3 different tools with no way of moving the measurment from a gage to the press back to the chamber.

The Wilson gage is a two way gage, it measures the case from the head of the case to it's shoulder AND from the shoulder forward to the mouth of the case, this is two measurements not one as in measuring the length of the case to get case length with one measurement.

F. Guffey

The Wilson case gage can be used with a straight edge and the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage to measure case length in thousands, when the head of the case is at the bottom of the cut of the gage the case is considered minimum length, when the head of the case is level with the top step the case is considered maximum length from the head of the case to it' shoulder, if not there is no relation between the chamber, case and sizer die set up. With no effort I size cases for short chambers, when you get a case that is .009 thousands shorter than the maximum length case from the head of the case to it's shoulder you are sizing case for a short chamber, not possible when the die is adjusted down to the shell holder in a press with the 'OL 1/4 additional turn' method, when the die is adjusted down to the shell holder it is impossible to size a case that is not full length sized (unless the case being sized is tougher than the press), the press could be 'springy' even then with the companion to the press tool can measure the amount of spring in thousands.

If you were able to size a case below minimum length (from the head of the case to the shoulder) the shortening of the case body would cause the neck to get longer, this would, when given little thought, cause a problem from the shoulder to the mouth of the case, the neck would get longer, some believe the neck gets thicker

hans4811 · May 9, 2010, 01:58 PM

A person suggested this...

" The extractor may need to be removed to get a correct reading. Same as when using go-no go-field headspace gauges "

I'll try that and see if that makes a difference.

Here's another observance....I tried loading into the chamber some loaded rounds (with the extractor still on) and even these weren't allowing the bolt to close with a 'click'. Out of one clip, I checked all 8 rounds, and only one fit to where the bolt closed....hmmmm.

hans4811 · May 9, 2010, 03:28 PM

Quote:

You can replace the bolt with a bolt that properly headspaces. I think this is the best long term solution. Do you know anyone with a bag of bolts and Go and No Go headspace gages?

Unfortunately, no I don't. I may have to start asking around my gun club though..

Quote:

A short term solution is to size your brass so it is .003" below chamber size. Your reloads will function perfectly as long as they are shorter than the chamber and do not cause any delay to bolt closure.

However this is undesirable as you have to segregate your brass, keep track of which brass has been sized for the one particular rifle. Using undersized brass in rifles with correct headspace will create short case life as case head separations will happen as undersized brass is stretched to a normal sized chamber.

I can do that with the fired brass, but now I'm worried about the 1200 rounds I just purchased from CMP. Because I tried closing the chamber on some of these loaded rounds and they didn't even close the bolt with a 'click'.

The other point you made isn't really an issue, as I only have the one Garand.
So all of the brass I'm shooting will just end up back in the same rifle.

Here's what I'm talking about the loaded rounds in the rifle.

Here's the worst offender...

Garand 002.jpg

Here's about the average of the 8 rounds that I checked from one clip..

Garand 003.jpg

..and here's the only one of the clip that actually closes.

Garand 001.jpg

When I put in one of the one's that I resized, that's at the minimum step of the Wilson case gage, it's a little better than the pic of the average one, but still doesn't close with a 'click'.

F. Guffey · May 10, 2010, 12:28 PM

Again, the Wilson case gage has two steps cut on the top, 'one measures full length sized' or 'minimum length' that is the shorter of the two, the top deck measurement is 'go-gage length' as in when a go-gage is placed in the Wilson case gage a go-gage will fit flush with the top of the gage. and when a case is correctly sized it is full length sized and when placed in the Wilson case gage will alight with the lower deck height and the difference between the two decks the same difference between a go-gage length chamber and commercial ammo (full length sized).

The effect the bolt has on head space can be measured, if the person filling the order understands how to measure the effect a bolt has on head space a bag or box is not required, it only takes one bolt, the correct one.

One rifle, one set of dies is all that is required to size cases from .012 thousands under full length sized to .016 over full length sized.

F. Guffey

Slamfire · May 11, 2010, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Here's what I'm talking about the loaded rounds in the rifle.

Here's the worst offender...

Garand 002.jpg

Here's about the average of the 8 rounds that I checked from one clip..

Garand 003.jpg

..and here's the only one of the clip that actually closes.

Garand 001.jpg

When I put in one of the one's that I resized, that's at the minimum step of the Wilson case gage, it's a little better than the pic of the average one, but still doesn't close with a 'click'.

Assuming you did that chamber check after removing the extractor and the ejector, I consider your rifle positively an accident waiting to happen.

For a Garand/M1a, the stripped bolt should always drop into engagement without any resistance.

If this is a CMP rifle they will fix it. If it is not a CMP rifle, you need to fix this before you have an out of battery slamfire.

A gunsmith, with a pull through reamer can increase the headspace.

hans4811 · May 11, 2010, 02:32 PM

Yes, the bolt was completely disassembled. Chamber was clean and cases were within OAL specs.....but here's the thing.

And yes, I did buy this from CMP, so I thought I'd give them a call about this. So I asked for the gunsmith/armorer...whatever. Talked to a nice gentleman who also happens to reload for the M1 too. Now here's the interesting thing, after I described what I've been doing, he says that doesn't surprise him at all. That you probably won't be able to close the bolt manually either on a loaded round or just the brass. Because of the high pressures in this chamber (50,000 psi) it actually seats the round in the chamber upon firing. He did say that they check all the rifles before they sell them religiously with the go/no-go gauges and that they stress this on their weekly staff meetings because of the liability. But he said that he wouldn't worry about this. Now after a couple of minutes he did call me back and said that it wouldn't hurt to go ahead and get it checked again with the gauges and if on the no-go gauge if there is a gap of more than about 1/16" that it may very well be a short chamber, although he doubts it. And if it is that he would just send me a new SA Correct Grade rifle ! WOW, that's awesome. So I found a gunsmith with some gauges and will be having it checked on Thursday just to be sure.

Now after that conversation, that left me scratching my head and I talked to a friend here at work about this. He talked to a friend of his who is a gunsmith and a retired colonel and has over 20 years experience with the M1's and other milsurp rifles. He said the same thing, that the rifle is acting just the way it's supposed to .....humph...learn something new everyday.

Course if this is the case, this blows my whole reason of doing this in getting a minimally headspaced casing...

F. Guffey · May 13, 2010, 12:20 PM

Purchasing dies is like ordering coffee, caff, decaff, half caff, light, dark, mocha, latte and my favorite 'COFFEE', Dies? same thing, my favorite die is the very versatile full length sizer die. I would recommend starting your set-up with a full length sizer die adjusted to full length size to minimum length, that would be the same as new in the box ammo loaded by a commercial ammo manufacturer like Remington, Federal Winchester etc.,

Go-gages are nice but not necessary, a go-gage will chamber when the chamber is go-gage length to infinity, meaning the chamber could be a 30/06 Hatcher +.125 Wildcat and have no effect on the bolt closing when checked with a go-gage. On the other hand I start with a gage that is beyond a field reject gage and work back from there, it is cute to close the bolt on a case with resistance, when I close the bolt with resistance I know I am getting close but that is with a press that is not 'springy'.

Again, when ordering a bolt and the person ordering the bolt knows how to determine the effect the bolt has on head space and the person shipping the bolt knows how to determine the effect the bolt will have on head space it is not necessary to find a bucket/box of bolts.

I have BAR dies in 300 Win mag, 270 Winchester and 30/06 Springfield for Browning Automatic Rifles that are semi-automatic built and designed after the M1, the M1 was designed to use the same al all 30/06 ammo used in the 06, 30 cal MG and the M1917, again the M1 chamber was different, it was smaller at the base by .0002 + or - a little. RCBS made dies for the BAR rifle that reduced the diameter of the head of the case, that part that extends above the shell holder + the radius if the die opening, again get a full length sizer die and start with full length sizing, then when that works.

CMP can not build a rifle that will chamber cases sized with special purpose dies, again I am a fan of determining head space before firing, not after even then the the reloader must be able to transfer the information from the chamber to the die, without being able to make the transfer the information is just to know.
F. Guffey

jaguarxk120 · May 13, 2010, 12:38 PM

One thing you haven't stated is are the streched case's new brass, reloads, surplus ammo, or waht. If your getting excessive streching from reloads then you want to consider a change in the burning rate of your powder.

Gunplummer · May 13, 2010, 02:58 PM

I agree with slamfire, there is something wrong there. You can compensate with reloading, but it is not right. As far as using head-space gauges, unless you have Mil-Spec gauges, you are probably not getting an accurate reading anyway. Did you check the OAL? Maybe the neck in the chamber is short and is stopping the case before it can get to the shoulder contact point.

F. Guffey · May 13, 2010, 03:51 PM

"I also get my Sinclair bump gage (that will measure the case's shoulder) so that I can check each resized case and then I pop it into the Wilson Head space gage to check to see if it falls in between the min/max steps" I start with a chamber cut into the rifle and a chamber cut into the die, the deck of the shell holder is one end and the shoulder of the die is the other end. The chamber in the rifles has a bolt face for one end and the shoulder of the chamber at the other end, and I believe the two chambers are related, in the perfect world the length of the chamber is .005 longer than the perfect case from the head of the case to it's shoulder, when I full length size a case it is no accident the cases, when removed from the die, are full length sized to minimum length, I know the M1 was designed to use the same ammo as the 03, M1917 and Browning's 30 cal MG, all 30/06 ammo if minimum length by being full length sized when new or when sized after firing, all the tools designed to measure a case are designed to do just that VERIFY the results, with out knowing the head space before sizing and ignoring the relationship between the die and chamber is just guess work, as I have been told, just screw with it until it works.

And the part where the case is too long to chamber having nothing to do with the chamber and it's effect on head space? but caused by the case being pulled out of the chamber while the case is locked to the wall of the chamber or the case stretches by the speed of the bolt and extractor being driven back by the escaping gas sooo fast the case stretches 'without skid marks' or pulling the head of the case off?

"I also get my Sinclair bump gage (that will measure the case's shoulder) so that I can check each resized case and then I pop it into the Wilson Head-space gage to check to see if it falls in between the min/max steps"

"I full-length size with the die a little loose, drop the case in the chamber, and see if the bolt closes. It won't all the way at first, so I advance the die again and try again. I do this until the bolt closes so the right hand lug is all the way down and I can feel a "click" when it bottoms out. I did this with several cases"

I would suggest starting from the other direction, use a full length sizer die, install it in the press, raise the ram then adjust the die down to the shell holder Then lower the ram and adjust the die down additional guesstimate of a turn, 1/8 will work on cases that have not been fired 57 times, then secure the die to the press with the lock nut, then size a case by jamming, binding and removing all the flex in the press by locking the handle at the top then lower the ram, remove the case and with all those tools, measure the case length, then chamber the case in the rifle. In the perfect world the case will chamber with .005 thousands to spare, the .005 thousands was designed into the 30/06 case and chamber, yes, that is what I would do then when I got good at that technique could start with another set of dies but moving on would only be done when I thoroughly understood what the relationship was between the die, shell holder, press and chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber.

F. Guffey

hans4811 · May 14, 2010, 10:35 PM

Just an update for anyone who's been following this and maybe help out another M1 owner down the road...

After talking to an experienced gunsmith who specializes in the M1's, it sounds like I don't have an issue after all. He asked was the M1 I got a Greek return, which it was. He says a lot of those, and it sounds like I got one of these he says, were never even fired. They were put in crates, packed in cosmo, and never taken out. Because of that, you'll naturally have a tight fitting chamber. Be happy you did he says, as you got yourself a great rifle. The tightness will wear off after a 1000 rounds or so, but be careful and look at the case mouth when reloading. Because of the tightness of the chamber, it may be jamming it and causing some damage to case...just be aware of it he says. When I asked him about the failure to close the bolt manually, he says do this....put the rifle all back together, put the bolt back together except the firing pin. Take a loaded round and hold the oprod to about half way and release it. Does it close the bolt okay ? You're good ! Which it did this fine...there's your go-gage.

Other than that, the procedure of setting up my FLRS die was fine. I was very methodical in setting this up, taking away the guesswork. Rather than 'setting it up to touch the shellplate and an additional 1/8 turn', I set it up to oversize it by using die shims and then reducing the shims by .002 thou until I get the desired setting. Or you could do the opposite and start short and work your way up....

Btw, these were all from Greek HXP rounds, once fired from my M1.

So I'm a happy camper knowing I got a good rifle.

May 8, 2010, 08:31 PM	#1
hans4811 Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Northeast FLA Posts: 44	Issue with FL die and M1 Need some help here... Trying to setup my new RCBS FL sizing X-Die for my M1 Garand. Here's how I do it on my Garand. Measuring fired brass is useless because it's stretched a little long and won't fit back in the chamber. I take the bolt out, pop out the ejector and springs and firing pin and just set the extractor back in (to help pull the cases back out after testing). I also get my Sinclair bump gage (that will measure the case's shoulder) so that I can check each resized case and then I pop it into the Wilson Headspace gage to check to see if it falls in between the min/max steps. I full-length size with the die a little loose, drop the case in the chamber, and see if the bolt closes. It won't all the way at first, so I advance the die again and try again. I do this until the bolt closes so the right hand lug is all the way down and I can feel a "click" when it bottoms out. I did this with several cases. I then intended to adjust my die so that the shoulder ends up about 0.003 shorter than the longest case that closes the bolt completely. I do all of this simply for longer case life, since I highly doubt that the accuracy difference is enough to notice. But here's the thing, when I finally get the bolt to close on the resized case, it's now below the minimum step on the Wilson headspace gauge, well below it , by about .003 thousands. The distance from the top of the max step to the minimum step is .006 thousands. My case is .003 thousands below that, meaning when I take a measurement, it's .009 thousands below the max step. So if I size it to just the minimum Sammi spec, which is the minimum step on the Wilson headspace gage, then the bolt won't close. 1.9285 (bolt closes) +.003 -------- 1.9315 (bolt now does NOT close) - this is also the minimum step on the Wilson case gage. What the heck ?? Do I just resize below the minimum step on the Wilson gage which is below the minimum Sammi spec ? What am I missing here.... ps. this is HXP brass once fired from my M1. Length of case is below max, crimp has been removed so the little 'tabs' don't mess up any measurement. Thanks for any help. Ken Last edited by hans4811; May 9, 2010 at 07:06 AM.

May 8, 2010, 10:56 PM	#2
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	If I read this right, you do have a Wilson case gage, if thats true, its a simple matter of adjusting the die until it fits flush in the wilson gage. That should fit the chamber of your rifle. Now once you get that set, lock down you rdie and you are set. Gas guns are hard on brass. The reasoning is, the gas is pushing on the inside of your case against the shoulder. Then the bullet passes the gas port and gas is bled off and is pushing aginst the operating rod, causing it to pull on the rem of the case. Now you have two opposing forces working on your brass, one pushing on the inside of the shoulder, and the second pulling on the rim to extract the case. This happens when the brass is at its hottest point. In reloading the brass needs to be put back to specs. The sizing die does this, and the wilson (or other case gage) tells you when it is in specs. SB dies have no value in this, they size the BASE of the die, and do no more to the lengh then a normal FL sizing die. Several things can and do happen if the brass is not sized to proper lenght. One, failure to feed, Two, failure to extract or if it extracts failure to chamber a new round. This action works like and is often mistaken for under powered powder charges. Third and the most dangerous if slam fires, Common on M1s and M14/M1As, not quite as commone on ARs. Primers often get the blame for these slam fires. The first two problems are common on all of them. This is why, at many High Power matches, the Match director, safety officer, or other range personnal will carry Case Gages, and if reloads are suspect, they are checked, if they dont fit the gage, then the gun is removed from the line until suitable ammo is obtained. Never reload ammo for gas guns unless you use a case gage to set up the sizing die, Wilson, Dillon, RCBS and others make them or you can make them youself if you have the tools. I made one for my M1 out a an old barrel blank, it works ever bit as good ast the commerical. Regardless where you get them, get one and use it. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

May 9, 2010, 07:01 AM	#3
hans4811 Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Northeast FLA Posts: 44	Maybe I didn't explain it well enough then...the problem is I can adjust the die so that when I put it in the Wilson case gage, it'll be at the minimum step of this gage, but then I won't be able to close the bolt. The only time it will close the bolt is when I have oversized it, to the point of where it sits BELOW the minimum step of the Wilson case gage.

May 9, 2010, 07:19 AM	#4
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	I believe that your rifle is incorrectly headspaced. It is more common to find rifle chambers that are above the "No-G0" gage, but for you, it is below the "Go" gage. So here is the issue. For you, with your rifle, this is actually risky as standard ammunition, sized to "Go" is too long for your chamber. It is potentially dangerous because during feed bolt closure is delayed. The cocking cams of your rifle have to crush fit (resize) the round to the chamber. This is not dangerous in a bolt rifle, but a Garand has a free floating firing pin. Any delay to bolt closure means while the case is being crush fit, that firing pin is just tapping the heck out of the primer and the bolt lugs are not in the receiver locking recesses. There have been plenty of out of battery slamfires with Garands, this is a situation that increases the possibility of a slamfire. So what you can do. You can replace the bolt with a bolt that properly headspaces. I think this is the best long term solution. Do you know anyone with a bag of bolts and Go and No Go headspace gages? A short term solution is to size your brass so it is .003" below chamber size. Your reloads will function perfectly as long as they are shorter than the chamber and do not cause any delay to bolt closure. However this is undesirable as you have to segregate your brass, keep track of which brass has been sized for the one particular rifle. Using undersized brass in rifles with correct headspace will create short case life as case head separations will happen as undersized brass is stretched to a normal sized chamber. But the next guy who gets that rifle will not know any better, and then he might have a slamfire.

May 9, 2010, 10:36 AM	#5
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	I am a big fan of determining head space before firing in thousands, once head space is known correctly adjusting the die, shell holder and press for sizing is nothing more than using a transfer to set up the die. But others find it necessary to screw with it until 'IT' fits. You are full length sizing cases that are .009 under the perfect chamber length of a go-gage? .009 is .004 shorter than a minimum length case, again, I am a fan of determining head space first, for me this beats using 3 different tools with no way of moving the measurment from a gage to the press back to the chamber. The Wilson gage is a two way gage, it measures the case from the head of the case to it's shoulder AND from the shoulder forward to the mouth of the case, this is two measurements not one as in measuring the length of the case to get case length with one measurement. F. Guffey The Wilson case gage can be used with a straight edge and the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage to measure case length in thousands, when the head of the case is at the bottom of the cut of the gage the case is considered minimum length, when the head of the case is level with the top step the case is considered maximum length from the head of the case to it' shoulder, if not there is no relation between the chamber, case and sizer die set up. With no effort I size cases for short chambers, when you get a case that is .009 thousands shorter than the maximum length case from the head of the case to it's shoulder you are sizing case for a short chamber, not possible when the die is adjusted down to the shell holder in a press with the 'OL 1/4 additional turn' method, when the die is adjusted down to the shell holder it is impossible to size a case that is not full length sized (unless the case being sized is tougher than the press), the press could be 'springy' even then with the companion to the press tool can measure the amount of spring in thousands. If you were able to size a case below minimum length (from the head of the case to the shoulder) the shortening of the case body would cause the neck to get longer, this would, when given little thought, cause a problem from the shoulder to the mouth of the case, the neck would get longer, some believe the neck gets thicker

May 9, 2010, 01:58 PM	#6
hans4811 Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Northeast FLA Posts: 44	A person suggested this... " The extractor may need to be removed to get a correct reading. Same as when using go-no go-field headspace gauges " I'll try that and see if that makes a difference. Here's another observance....I tried loading into the chamber some loaded rounds (with the extractor still on) and even these weren't allowing the bolt to close with a 'click'. Out of one clip, I checked all 8 rounds, and only one fit to where the bolt closed....hmmmm.

May 10, 2010, 12:28 PM	#8
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Again, the Wilson case gage has two steps cut on the top, 'one measures full length sized' or 'minimum length' that is the shorter of the two, the top deck measurement is 'go-gage length' as in when a go-gage is placed in the Wilson case gage a go-gage will fit flush with the top of the gage. and when a case is correctly sized it is full length sized and when placed in the Wilson case gage will alight with the lower deck height and the difference between the two decks the same difference between a go-gage length chamber and commercial ammo (full length sized). The effect the bolt has on head space can be measured, if the person filling the order understands how to measure the effect a bolt has on head space a bag or box is not required, it only takes one bolt, the correct one. One rifle, one set of dies is all that is required to size cases from .012 thousands under full length sized to .016 over full length sized. F. Guffey

May 11, 2010, 02:32 PM	#10
hans4811 Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Northeast FLA Posts: 44	Yes, the bolt was completely disassembled. Chamber was clean and cases were within OAL specs.....but here's the thing. And yes, I did buy this from CMP, so I thought I'd give them a call about this. So I asked for the gunsmith/armorer...whatever. Talked to a nice gentleman who also happens to reload for the M1 too. Now here's the interesting thing, after I described what I've been doing, he says that doesn't surprise him at all. That you probably won't be able to close the bolt manually either on a loaded round or just the brass. Because of the high pressures in this chamber (50,000 psi) it actually seats the round in the chamber upon firing. He did say that they check all the rifles before they sell them religiously with the go/no-go gauges and that they stress this on their weekly staff meetings because of the liability. But he said that he wouldn't worry about this. Now after a couple of minutes he did call me back and said that it wouldn't hurt to go ahead and get it checked again with the gauges and if on the no-go gauge if there is a gap of more than about 1/16" that it may very well be a short chamber, although he doubts it. And if it is that he would just send me a new SA Correct Grade rifle ! WOW, that's awesome. So I found a gunsmith with some gauges and will be having it checked on Thursday just to be sure. Now after that conversation, that left me scratching my head and I talked to a friend here at work about this. He talked to a friend of his who is a gunsmith and a retired colonel and has over 20 years experience with the M1's and other milsurp rifles. He said the same thing, that the rifle is acting just the way it's supposed to .....humph...learn something new everyday. Course if this is the case, this blows my whole reason of doing this in getting a minimally headspaced casing...

May 13, 2010, 12:20 PM	#11
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Purchasing dies is like ordering coffee, caff, decaff, half caff, light, dark, mocha, latte and my favorite 'COFFEE', Dies? same thing, my favorite die is the very versatile full length sizer die. I would recommend starting your set-up with a full length sizer die adjusted to full length size to minimum length, that would be the same as new in the box ammo loaded by a commercial ammo manufacturer like Remington, Federal Winchester etc., Go-gages are nice but not necessary, a go-gage will chamber when the chamber is go-gage length to infinity, meaning the chamber could be a 30/06 Hatcher +.125 Wildcat and have no effect on the bolt closing when checked with a go-gage. On the other hand I start with a gage that is beyond a field reject gage and work back from there, it is cute to close the bolt on a case with resistance, when I close the bolt with resistance I know I am getting close but that is with a press that is not 'springy'. Again, when ordering a bolt and the person ordering the bolt knows how to determine the effect the bolt has on head space and the person shipping the bolt knows how to determine the effect the bolt will have on head space it is not necessary to find a bucket/box of bolts. I have BAR dies in 300 Win mag, 270 Winchester and 30/06 Springfield for Browning Automatic Rifles that are semi-automatic built and designed after the M1, the M1 was designed to use the same al all 30/06 ammo used in the 06, 30 cal MG and the M1917, again the M1 chamber was different, it was smaller at the base by .0002 + or - a little. RCBS made dies for the BAR rifle that reduced the diameter of the head of the case, that part that extends above the shell holder + the radius if the die opening, again get a full length sizer die and start with full length sizing, then when that works. CMP can not build a rifle that will chamber cases sized with special purpose dies, again I am a fan of determining head space before firing, not after even then the the reloader must be able to transfer the information from the chamber to the die, without being able to make the transfer the information is just to know. F. Guffey

May 13, 2010, 12:38 PM	#12
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,620	One thing you haven't stated is are the streched case's new brass, reloads, surplus ammo, or waht. If your getting excessive streching from reloads then you want to consider a change in the burning rate of your powder.

May 13, 2010, 02:58 PM	#13
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	I agree with slamfire, there is something wrong there. You can compensate with reloading, but it is not right. As far as using head-space gauges, unless you have Mil-Spec gauges, you are probably not getting an accurate reading anyway. Did you check the OAL? Maybe the neck in the chamber is short and is stopping the case before it can get to the shoulder contact point.

May 13, 2010, 03:51 PM	#14
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	"I also get my Sinclair bump gage (that will measure the case's shoulder) so that I can check each resized case and then I pop it into the Wilson Head space gage to check to see if it falls in between the min/max steps" I start with a chamber cut into the rifle and a chamber cut into the die, the deck of the shell holder is one end and the shoulder of the die is the other end. The chamber in the rifles has a bolt face for one end and the shoulder of the chamber at the other end, and I believe the two chambers are related, in the perfect world the length of the chamber is .005 longer than the perfect case from the head of the case to it's shoulder, when I full length size a case it is no accident the cases, when removed from the die, are full length sized to minimum length, I know the M1 was designed to use the same ammo as the 03, M1917 and Browning's 30 cal MG, all 30/06 ammo if minimum length by being full length sized when new or when sized after firing, all the tools designed to measure a case are designed to do just that VERIFY the results, with out knowing the head space before sizing and ignoring the relationship between the die and chamber is just guess work, as I have been told, just screw with it until it works. And the part where the case is too long to chamber having nothing to do with the chamber and it's effect on head space? but caused by the case being pulled out of the chamber while the case is locked to the wall of the chamber or the case stretches by the speed of the bolt and extractor being driven back by the escaping gas sooo fast the case stretches 'without skid marks' or pulling the head of the case off? "I also get my Sinclair bump gage (that will measure the case's shoulder) so that I can check each resized case and then I pop it into the Wilson Head-space gage to check to see if it falls in between the min/max steps" "I full-length size with the die a little loose, drop the case in the chamber, and see if the bolt closes. It won't all the way at first, so I advance the die again and try again. I do this until the bolt closes so the right hand lug is all the way down and I can feel a "click" when it bottoms out. I did this with several cases" I would suggest starting from the other direction, use a full length sizer die, install it in the press, raise the ram then adjust the die down to the shell holder Then lower the ram and adjust the die down additional guesstimate of a turn, 1/8 will work on cases that have not been fired 57 times, then secure the die to the press with the lock nut, then size a case by jamming, binding and removing all the flex in the press by locking the handle at the top then lower the ram, remove the case and with all those tools, measure the case length, then chamber the case in the rifle. In the perfect world the case will chamber with .005 thousands to spare, the .005 thousands was designed into the 30/06 case and chamber, yes, that is what I would do then when I got good at that technique could start with another set of dies but moving on would only be done when I thoroughly understood what the relationship was between the die, shell holder, press and chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber. F. Guffey

May 14, 2010, 10:35 PM	#15
hans4811 Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Northeast FLA Posts: 44	Just an update for anyone who's been following this and maybe help out another M1 owner down the road... After talking to an experienced gunsmith who specializes in the M1's, it sounds like I don't have an issue after all. He asked was the M1 I got a Greek return, which it was. He says a lot of those, and it sounds like I got one of these he says, were never even fired. They were put in crates, packed in cosmo, and never taken out. Because of that, you'll naturally have a tight fitting chamber. Be happy you did he says, as you got yourself a great rifle. The tightness will wear off after a 1000 rounds or so, but be careful and look at the case mouth when reloading. Because of the tightness of the chamber, it may be jamming it and causing some damage to case...just be aware of it he says. When I asked him about the failure to close the bolt manually, he says do this....put the rifle all back together, put the bolt back together except the firing pin. Take a loaded round and hold the oprod to about half way and release it. Does it close the bolt okay ? You're good ! Which it did this fine...there's your go-gage. Other than that, the procedure of setting up my FLRS die was fine. I was very methodical in setting this up, taking away the guesswork. Rather than 'setting it up to touch the shellplate and an additional 1/8 turn', I set it up to oversize it by using die shims and then reducing the shims by .002 thou until I get the desired setting. Or you could do the opposite and start short and work your way up.... Btw, these were all from Greek HXP rounds, once fired from my M1. So I'm a happy camper knowing I got a good rifle.